Forgiveness & Sin

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Joshuastone7, Mar 15, 2024.

  1. 4,275
    837
    113
    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2013
    Messages:
    4,275
    Likes Received:
    837
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Hey, brother.

    Have you considered this scripture in accordance with your comment above?

    "You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies." Jhn 8:44

    Joshua
     
  2. 158
    40
    28
    Timothy Kline

    Timothy Kline Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2021
    Messages:
    158
    Likes Received:
    40
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Perry, MI
    Timothy Kline said:
    Satan didn't lie to Eve. He deceived her, yes. Lied to her, no.


    Always.

    From Eve's perspective, the Seraph had not lied in telling her she wouldn't die on the journey upon which she would come to know good and evil. And since sin loves company, sin sought to multiply itself through Eve's offer to Adam to join her in disobedience. Which, of course, Adam was already willing to do, having seen that she had disobeyed Jehovah's command and hadn't died— as he doesn't even hesitate.

    And yes, with scriptural hindsight, we know this of the devil through scripture; Eve wasn't armed as we are today with our ready access to scripture. Even so, she and Adam both became an example written for our instruction.

    But all these things that occurred to them were for our example and it was written for our admonition, for their end of the world has come upon us. — 1 Corinthians 10:11 Aramaic Bible in Plain English

    I was writing from Eve's perspective, and Jesus was speaking from the perspective of the believer.

    A question in turn:

    What did Adam know that Eve did not, thus allowing her to be deceived?

    Submitted for your perusal and consideration,
    Timothy,
    A believer.
     
  3. 4,275
    837
    113
    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2013
    Messages:
    4,275
    Likes Received:
    837
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    It is my understanding that the serpent did indeed lie to Eve,

    "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." Gen 2:16,17

    "But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die." Gen 3:4

    "But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." 2Pt 3:8

    "Thus all the days that Adam lived were 930 years, and he died." Gen 5:5

    From my reading, the serpent lied to Eve for Adam died "in that day."

    I would say nothing. Eve knew exactly what Adam did. The serpent said she wouldn't die; that was a lie. She did die.

    Besides, the serpent claimed simply that she would not die, period. That would have been Eve's perspective.

    Do you feel John 8:44 is ambiguous?

    Joshua
     
  4. 158
    40
    28
    Timothy Kline

    Timothy Kline Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2021
    Messages:
    158
    Likes Received:
    40
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Perry, MI
    Timothy Kline said:
    What did Adam know that Eve did not, thus allowing her to be deceived?​


    If Eve knew everything Adam did, how is it that she was deceived and Adam was not? What was the deception that worked on her but not Adam?

    --Timothy
    A believer.
     
  5. 4,275
    837
    113
    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2013
    Messages:
    4,275
    Likes Received:
    837
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Greetings, brother.

    As I read it, it's relatively simple: Eve was lied to, believed it, and ate. Adam ate from the fruit, knowing full well that he should not.

    Deception is a lie. Eve knew she was lied to:

    "The serpent deceived me, and I ate." Gen 3:13

    We take from Scripture that Adam ate, knowing the consequences of his actions. (We've all been there.)

    "She gave me fruit of the tree, and I ate." Gen 3:12

    "Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor." Gen 2:14

    Adam didn't eat because of the serpent's deception; he ate because the woman gave him the fruit. He was being completely honest. It was as simple as that.

    All love...

    Joshua
     
  6. 158
    40
    28
    Timothy Kline

    Timothy Kline Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2021
    Messages:
    158
    Likes Received:
    40
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Perry, MI
    Thank you, @Joshuastone7 .

    --Timothy
    A believer.
     
    Joshuastone7 likes this.
  7. 65
    2
    8
    Harry

    Harry New Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2024
    Messages:
    65
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Gender:
    Male
    Thank you Joshua for letting me join your forum.

    I was very impressed with the 'Forgiveness & Sin' thread, which subject matter I view as pivotal to understanding the Christian faith, and the well argued positions of both yourself and Timothy on various aspects of the debate, such as whether sin - and its opposite - is an action of the heart and mind, or requires externalization to earn its label, so to speak.

    To widen the discussion it might be worth including the concept of righteousness and the relation it has to sin, and not to forget faith, which plays a central role in interpersonal interactions, whether between men, or us and our Maker.

    There seem to be two different modes of conducting a relationship, either on law or on faith; the two being mutually exclusive as illustrated in Paul's line that 'law does not adhere to faith, but he that does it' is 'holding up his end of the log,' so to speak. Ga 3:12

    Law obviates love, being just a tit for tat dealing, a motion without emotion, falling far short of the potential attainable for individuals made in God's image to express themselves in a meaningful way, in my opinion.

    Hence, 'the law is fine, provided one uses it lawfully,' and basing human relationships on it is apparently not meant to be one of those uses.

    The law being well suited to make sinners aware of their condition and inability to extricate themselves from it - as if desiring to do so were a natural inclination in man - the question then becomes as to whether it is also 'lawful' to place people under it that have been rendered constitutionally incapable of keeping it, through no fault of their own, and therefore in potential violation of their divinely given free will?

    True, the original Israelites at Mount Sinai volunteered to be subject to law, but even they were never consulted as to whether they wanted to be born in sin or not; nor did we, for that matter, who never signed on the dotted line.

    Hence, being brought into existence with impaired moral capacity by a righteous God demanding moral perfection constitutes a profound breach of trust in those made sensitive to the situation they find themselves in, having to bear the punishment for transgression by another man, Adam.

    Just some of my musings at present,

    Harry
     
    Joshuastone7 likes this.

Share This Page