I nevr said

??? I never said scrolls were added. What part of what I posted makes you think I said that? Most things about the flood match the book of Enoch. Enoch was not alive when the flood came, he had already died. He wrote about the flood that was to come, and named the man that would live through it, Noah by name. I am of the understanding when Jehovah gives a person something to write, he does not have several others also write the same thing in the future? I'm sure Satan may have had scrolls also written...but there is a difference. Jehovah's written word has prophesies that come true, the kind Satan can't make happen...like the flood.

Look at the major change in understanding Gods word , by just changing one word...Sperm'a to seed. It changes why we die. Satan has most of the world asking, "Why does God let babies die, etc..." Satan has put the blame of what he did on to Jehovah. It even hides the real reason why Jesus had to be dead for up to three days, and what he gave.
I'm not trying to change you, or any member of this forum. If a person says, "Jesus is Jehovah," will I stay silent? No. If Jesus were here and people started calling him Jehovah, would he stay silent?

 

I have not said there are books in the bible that should not be there. I have said, "I find things in the bible that suggest the book of Enoch should be a part of the bible. It was used in Jesus day, and before."
Do I trust the translation of all the scriptures in the bible? Only if they match the scrolls. If a Christian does not believe in the scrolls, how can they believe in a book that is a copy of the scrolls?
The Watch Tower has put in print, "They added in the letter A saying Jesus is A God." Do I agree with the A being added in? Yes, because of the things Jesus said about the father being greater etc.
When things are changed (wording, words) there has to be other scriptures to back it up. The tree in the garden; there is not one scripture to back up that that is a real tree. All the other trees in the bible are symbolic...what scriptures back up the garden tree is real? None.

I used to have a very dear friend. he was raised a JW. At 17 he was in Brooklyn. He was an Elder before they had more than one Elder in a hall. Sometimes he would think aloud. A few years before he died, I heard him say, "Even if it's not the truth, I have had a good life."
My first year as a JW, it was he who told me, "Genesis 3:15 is what the whole bible is about." He was a dear man, and he loved Jehovah with his whole heart...I look forward to seeing him again.

Josh, I know Jehovah's people have many things right, and many things wrong...I know one thing that is right, Genesis 3:15, the word seed is not in that scripture in the scrolls. I have learned to test the word, match them to the scrolls. I would give my life in support of the scrolls.

 

A) Because of the Dead Sea scrolls!

B) Ultimately though, because of it's contents -- they seem deeply authenticated IMO. And I trust that Jehovah is stronger than any human attempt to prevent his word from accomplishing his will. Despite hundreds of attempts to destroy the Bible (first OT and then NT a la Catholicism), he has preserved for us a written word that tells the truth about the spiritual state of mankind's separation from Jehovah, and his brilliant implementation through Christ to bring the creation back into his fold.

Is there something in particular you struggle with in the Bible? The supposed 'genocides', etc?

 

Do you have a link to an online version of the scrolls?

I use a digital interlinear which brings the primary scholarly documents of the fragments / research / Wescott-Hort, etc, into a fairly easy to use interface. 'Interlinear Scripture Analyzer'

 

You are asking me to give you in minutes what has taken me some years. You can buy a copy of the scrolls printed into English for about $70. There are many copies of the scrolls in Hebrew. Find a Jewish JW to help you match the Hebrew scrolls with the English translated book. I had a old JW friend who was Jewish. He had done much of the work before I knew him. You can also get a copy of the books of Enoch on the net free.
All I suggest a person look for is a translation that matches the scrolls. The scrolls do not have punctuation, and all sentences run together. It takes some work, but once you start breaking the sentences apart, it gets easer. My goal was to break it all down into subjects. The Watch Tower many years age printed a book in Greek with English words below...but I stopped using this when they lost a court case, and said on the stand, " No we had no one to translate the Greek." Trust only translations that can be proven to match can prove.
You could write a bible from the one we have. Make a few changes here, and there, and have it printed. Would it be inspired of God? I'd say no. So why trust a copy of the scrolls made by those of false religions?

Much of how to take these things apart is questions you ask of you. Such as: why do we die because of what two people did? I would not kill a human race for what two did, would Jehovah? He condemned Adam, and the women for what they did...he did not condemn the whole un-born human race...if he had, he would not have made a way out as he did in genesis 3:15...so we have to die for a reason that religions hide from us? If we know the truth, religions lose the power of death over people. The only people who will not be in Jesus 1,000 year rule are those who have, and will die from a judgment of God. Just think about that? Even Hitler did not die from a judgment from God?

 

The genocides? are you pointing to Germany, 1933-45?

 

SingleCell,

Here is a question you can reason on:

Neandertal...what were they? if they were on earth, they would be written in the scrolls. We have the bones. They were real, and they were here. They were human like. Shorter than humans. Their bones were thicker. Their brow was larger than the human brow. medical fact: In 2014 science said, "We have found Neandertal DNA traces within some humans." These were not the Nephilim, sons of the angels who came to earth and took the daughters of men? They were not here before Adam, and the women. Surely Jehovah would have said if he had created them? No other creature has the power to create life...Jehovah must have created them. When? Why? and for what reason?
Here is a link. When Jehovah created man, he commanded the angels (the sons of heaven) to serve man. Do you read about angels serving Adam? No. Why?

The book of Enoch: Many of the angels refused the command to serve man. Jehovah when he commands, it will be followed, or forced upon those commanded to follow. Enoch says they were cast down in a human like form. Forced to serve man. Enoch goes on; Satan said to one of these, Sammual, "let me use your body, and my words, and I will get them (Adam and the women) to disobey God, and you won't have to serve them any longer." If these were angels (sons of heaven) they would have sperm being in a human like form. Genesis 3:15. Jehovah is asking Satan about his sperma, off spring.

But let's put the scrolls of Enoch aside. Say we have no scrolls from Enoch. Say there was no Enoch. Start at ground zero..."Where did the Neandertal come from?" They had to be created, and only Jehovah can created a life form. The Nephilim were created from angel, and human...both of these Jehovah created...but angels never should have taken human like form and had sex with human women.
Reason, "The bible does not say God created Neandertal, but he must have, and it would have to be in the scrolls. The only scrolls it is recorded in is those of Enoch...scrolls left out of the bible. Put the scrolls of Enoch in the bible, and it blows evolution out the door.
There are many reasons they do not want the scrolls of Enoch in the bible.

 

I was thinking if I knew of any examples on the forum where a poster had been really angry (because they felt as if they were being attacked) at another poster and yet were still able to post a reply that did not contain abuse, name-calling or character assassination.

Then the cogs turned over in my brain…..and I said to myself: “Oh yeah! I know…..there are a couple of my own posts where I posted in “spitfire†mode. Let me share ‘em! (They are from the early days on the forum.)

 

Another post -

Was I able to get my point of view across? Absolutely!

Was I ticked off at this brother? You betcha!

It’s a been a while since I wrote these posts but I do remember that I had to re-write several drafts before I felt that I had a post that was suitable for publication on the forum and that would not breach the guidelines of the forum.

I had to expend an enormous amount of self-control to accomplish this
.
As we know, self-control is one of the fruits of the holy spirit.

It is possible to be angry and write a post without resorting to abuse, name-calling and character assassination. It is “do-able.â€


Editing to add: I found out later that the poster whom I was angry at, was having a joke with me and trying to "wind me up." I didn't realise this at the time I wrote these posts and he came across as being antagonistic.

But I do remember very clearly my state of mind at the time I wrote these posts and the level of anger I felt.

Wallflower

 

My reply is only this: God Jehovah inspired the scrolls. Did he inspire men of false religions to copy the scrolls into a book form? I do not believe he did. King James had men of a religion who had broken off from the Catholic religion, which can be proven to be a false religion. I have never trusted their translation of the scrolls for that reason...a branch from a tree can not produce different fruit. That is the reason I started checking the bible against the scrolls. Are all the scrolls inspired of God? if they are backed up with scrolls that can be proven, such as those with prophesies that have come true, I would say yes. Those that can not be proven, I question?
Jehovah left us his word in the scrolls...the book form of the scrolls should match word for word...a simple check, one against the other proves they do not match 100%. Plus, these same men left scrolls out. Why would anybody trust what men of false religions would copy? I am not saying they were bad men. but, they do believe things against the scrolls...Hell fire, going to heaven etc.

 

No Joshua's conquest of Canaan. I figured you were rejecting the Bible, as commonly accepted, because of the inclusion of things like these

 

King James is possibly the worst translation (though I do appreciate the Old English); yet still conveys the point Jehovah is informing mankind of.

And it seems you are stuck in the same quandary with the Hebrew texts aren't you? Why trust the scrolls -- wasn't Israel utterly corrupt?

EVEN if Enoch were true, I don't see what bearing it has on producing righteousness and conquering the flesh ... if anything, Enoch is most assuredly a 'fraud' [Jewish science fiction from ~300 CE] juxtaposed to the Hebrew scriptures.

Peter was likely referencing it in the exact same way Paul referenced Greek philosophers in Acts 17.

 

Fun fact -- there are 70 books in the Bible

Psalms is actually 5 different books.

 

Those bones are simply humans. Compare Asians to Anglo-Saxons. No great mystery, just the fraud of the Darwinian religion trying to justify itself

You have an interesting religion, I'll grant you that; but doesn't it just play against human desire to be gods themselves?

The 'angels serving man', Satan becoming jealous, etc. That seems to me a clear spiritual trap leading to fairy-tale conceptions in fulfillment of prophecy:

The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

1 Timothy 4:1

Enoch is the ORIGINAL lie repackaged -- YOU can be LIKE God.

What is the outcome of this teaching? Leaving Jehovah's people to follow 'deceiving spirits'. Think about it -- what have you been arguing for here? Not the fulfillment of 2000 years of Messianic prophecy through the Jews producing Christ ... but some sperm that Satan uh ... did stuff with.

 

Lets assume the scrolls can't be trusted. take a second step: Lets say the scrolls are nothing but 100% fake. Where did the bible we have today come from?

 

Assuming the scrolls AND the Bible can't be trusted: it's all a huge lie and there is likely just a deistic god with little to no interest in mankind.

Regardless, what do you think -- why do you trust the corrupt religious leaders of Israel and not the corrupt Christian leaders?

Same problem no?

It seems to me your logic falls apart here, because you will likely use the same argument we would use about the Bible : God caused it to happen.

Respectfully, since you don't trust that God can produce his Word in the world, you are left looking for table scraps of conspiracy. Might as well just go with Deism IMO, more logical in your framework.

------

What in particular would you suggest has been corrupted in the Bible? (verses, chapters, etc)

 

Is the conclusion that only people with access to the Vatican Vault and speak Hebrew know the truth?

In other words: Jehovah was conquered by man, and his Word didn't actually enter the world, because corrupt religious leaders were more powerful?

I need a linky to these scrolls man! I've read Enoch ... I just don't see it. I completely agree that it has NO place among the 70 books of the Bible.

As a back-drop to Lord of the Rings? yes please.

 

I never said I did not trust Jehovah could not produce his word in the world. He knew Satan would have men change things, leave things out...so he hid many things they would not see. AND THEY DID NOT SEE. Jehovah gave his people an understanding of reasoning to find what he had hidden away.

I never said I trusted corrupt religious leaders of Israel and not the corrupt Christian leaders? let me be very clear on my position: I TRUST NO RELIGIOUS LEADERS OF ANY RELIGION. I BELIEVE THEY ARE ALL FALSE, AND TOOLS OF SATAN.

What you believe, you are free to believe. What you see in the scriptures you see, and what you say you don't see, you don't see. I'm not suggestion you have to be on the same page I am on? I am not saying you are wrong in how you believe. I am saying I am right in how I believe...so as has been suggest; I agree to disagree...deal?