Brother, I can take you back to that scripture in Dan 12:11 again. We know that it's first fulfillment was in 66-70 CE, and it should be obvious that it's final fulfillment is in the time of the end, not to the physical Jerusalem again.

When you look at Israel in the time of the end as a metaphor then the two witnesses come from the Jerusalem that is surrounded for 1260 days, it's the constant feature that get's removed, starting with the house of God. (2Th 2) Obviously the two witnesses would not be unbelieving Jews.

Paul to me is very clear in Romans 11 that it comes down to individual actions on whether one comes to serve Jehovah in truth and faith, and that this includes faith in his son Christ Jesus, and that without this there is no hope.

IMO it is a fruitless effort to say that any Jewish believer that denies Christ has any hope of surviving his return, and that this is at the most basic of Christs teachings.

In such a light, and along with the keys Peter held, and the unclean animals becoming clean, and the temple being destroyed in 70, and all of Christs teachings, Israel in the time of the end must be a metaphor for all believers who profess Christ. This has to be...

"Israel" has to be true believers and cannot include anyone that does not have faith in Christ.

IMO

 

Precisely! That is what these specific prophecies (Romans 11, Zechariah 12 [part]) are talking about, a portion of Israel coming to faith in Christ.

Hence, Romans 11 and Zechariah 12 explicitly state that this will happen.

Zechariah - they will LOOK on the one THEY pierced and weep after a FIRST BORN son. (how can this possibly apply to Rome?)

Romans - Israel is CONFINED to disobedience UNTIL the nations (those who accept Christ) are in the fold, THEN God will enlighten them

We can go back and forth over chronology; but chronology doesn't explain these clear statements. This is why God is loyal to them: because of their forefathers. (so says Romans 11)

Something is going to happen in the future that causes part of Israel to wake-up from their delusion and recognize Jesus as the anointed.

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But indeed, it doesn't really matter, and obviously the notion of "zionism" is one of the KEY corrupting agents in the evangelical church system.

So I definitely agree that ALL (or most) of the other prophecy revolves around the Israel of God (true Israel). Daniel 12:11 has nothing to do with literal Jerusalem for example, as you noted.

 

What if Paul is talking about the time period after the WTS goes down? What if he is talking about a time period after 2Th 2 and after the judgement begins with the house of God?

Rom 11:11,12 "So I ask, They did not stumble and fall completely, did they? Certainly not! But by their false step, there is salvation to people of the nations, to incite them to jealousy. Now if their false step means riches to the world and their decrease means riches to people of the nations, how much more will their full number mean!"

Then he would be talking about the time period when Gods people are in captivity in Babylon in the time of the end, and before they are regathered to him.

Rom 11:25 "For I do not want you to be unaware of this sacred secret, brothers, so that you do not become wise in your own eyes: A partial dulling of senses has come upon Israel until the full number of people of the nations has come in, and in this manner all Israel will be saved. Just as it is written: “The deliverer will come out of Zion and turn away ungodly practices from Jacob."

Which also means that the WTS errors and discipline will allow all peoples tongues and nations to come to Jehovah, hence why the nations benefit from the fall of the WTS.

 

IMO, Dan 12:11 can only be understood by it's first fulfillment in 66-70CE. In 66CE Eleazar Ben Hanania stopped the sacrifices at the temple for the roman Emperor and people. This started the 1290 day period. You see the 1290 days is the time table in between the constant feature being removed and the disgusting thing being placed.

1290 days after the sacrifices were ceased Rome entered the city and the temple to destroy it.

In the time of the end this will present itself as the Watchtower magazine that presents Jehovah's kingdom to the people of the world will be shut down, the WTS will no longer exist. After this Jehovah's people will be gathered back to him from captivity along with many from the nations. It's at that point that the 8th king will come against the true temple of God to destroy them in an attempt to cut their cords from God, starting Armageddon.

 

I did some extensive work into the remaining Jewish holidays yet to be fulfilled, and I believe that these holidays will have their fulfillment in the time of the end.

It started years ago while working on the chronology of Daniel. Once I believed I had the final structure of the chronology of the time of the end I noticed that the holidays fit over this chronology perfectly, and on the exact day the event prophesied for that holiday to occur! Now these holidays vary in days apart because they are based on the lunar cycle, therefore there are only certain time periods these holidays line up with the chronology of Daniel.

The next time this occurs is presented below. After this, the next time period begins in 2021 and then 2037. You can read that thread HERE.

{2300 Starts} Watchtower News Reports: Sept 10th, 2018; Rosh Hashanah
|
{965 Days Pass}
|
{1260, 1290, 1335 Starts} Watchtower Goes Down: May 1st, 2021
|
{777 Days Pass}
|
{1742nd Day} Call to Rebuild Jerusalem: June 17th, 2023
|
{108 Days Pass}
|
{1850th Day} Anglo-America Collapses: Sept 29th-6th, 2023; Sukkot
|
{375 Days Pass}
|
{1260 Ends} Jesus Enthroned: Oct 12th, 2024; Yom Kippur
|
{30 Days Pass}
|
{1290 Ends} Disgusting Thing Placed: Nov 11th, 2024
|
{45 Days Pass}
|
{2300[SUP]th[/SUP], 1335[SUP]th [/SUP]Day} New World: Dec 26th, 2024; Hanukkah

 

Well, the timeline I presented is simply one possibility. I don't claim to know when the end will come, because just like the first holiday to be fulfilled is Rosh Hashana, it is the day no one knows the day or hour, therefore 2018 is only one possibility. After this the next sequence matches up starting 2021.

 

Thanks for the comment...

My first thought on this is this; Is there any prophecy in scripture we can directly connect this understanding too, and second is there a first fulfillment in the past, a presidence?

It seems to be that any fulfillment in the end has had a past fulfillment.

I know many believe the physical nation of Israel has end time fulfillment of prophecy, however I am not one of them. I believe "Israel" became all of mankind who worships Jehovah through Christ Jesus once Cornelius was baptized.

You see I believe this was the fulfillment of Dan 9:27 “And he will keep the covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week, he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease."

The "many" was the Jewish nation, and the covenant was for a Messiah. This week ran from the moment Jesus was baptized, and at the half Jesus was cut off, and then that covenant to the Jewish nation ended when Cornelius was baptized in 36CE.

This was one of the keys that peter held, remember the sheet coming down to him with unclean animals Jehovah called clean.

Now that covenant for a Messiah has been offered to the world, and "Israel" in end time prophecy are those of Christs brothers still left here on earth.

Numbers are interesting for sure when Jehovah uses them for specific meaning, however without direct scriptural connections we really are just guessing.

Personally I would bet you a woman becomes president and she may be far more volatile for the future world. She is a big fan of the Council on Foreign Relations.

I've seen the videos on that subject and I don't think I would put my trust in Greek mythology.

Besides, the 12th chapter of Rev talks about the birth of Gods kingdom and Christ and Satan's attempts to stop it, we really don't need this to be movements of planets.

Keep in mind it was actually Satan who caused the star that led the wise men to Jesus's birth, presenting himself as an angel of light, it wouldn't be a stretch that he set up the mythical constellations because we already know he had read Rev 12.

I would say that one only needs to confirm they support an entity to be identified by it. A simple card to buy and sell with the words "United Nation States" would suffice for that 666 mark.

I pray that I can do Jehovah's will and he forgives me each day so that maybe I'll be able to save my family and perhaps even become of some use in that time...

Jehovah willing...

 

I'm not so sure the death stroke of Rev 13 is future. For starters I believe the 8th king rising from the abyss is a separate incident then the death stroke. I do believe the 8th king rising from the abyss in Rev 17 is still a future event, however that the death stroke of 13 may very well be from the past, think about this;

We have the immense image of Dan 2, and the beasts in Dan 7 represent those metal parts in Dan 2. Which means the head of gold is Babylon/lion and so on. Therefore the beasts in Rev 13 must also be those entities, such as Babylon/lion. Now, whats the one city that is mentioned alive in Revelation that we know was destroyed in the past? Babylon right? Babylon is seen alive in Rev 17, and we can also defer that the lion and mouth speaking in Rev 13 is that very same Babylon, meaning that if we want to be as literal as possible with scripture the death stroke to one of the cities that heals must be Babylon for it is the only city from the past seen alive in the book of Revelation after being destroyed.

Now as I said previously, it's possible the clay in the toes of the statue represent the clay bricks of the tower of Babel and that death stroke that healed could have been in 325CE.

IMO...

 

When Revelation was written it was a prophecy of past and future events. Some were completed at the time of the writing by John, some were fulfilled before, yet others after.

Rev chapter 12:1-4 describes events starting at the garden of Eden up until Jesus was born. Rev 17 talks about nations that existed before Rome.

I believe that parts of Rev 13 were fulfilled several hundred years after John penciled it, however these fulfillment's were in our current past.

The question you ask is no different then asking me if Dan 11 is a prophecy of the past. It's not a mater of all being past or all being future, that would be naive to think those are the only two options, what you want to know is where we are in the stream of time of the chapter.

 

The understanding behind the idea of the tower of Babel and it's connection to the heaven high tree;

Immediately after the flood Satan attempted to establish a kingdom to himself at the tower of Babel. The entire concept of the tower was metaphorical. The construction of the ziggurat was to establish kingly worship with Satan as the head, and after Jehovah confused their languages at that time, this idea along with the pyramid structures known as ziggurats spread throughout the world, including Egypt, Asia and South America.

Satan's words below show his goal in creating this tower;

Ish 14:13 "You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to the heavens. Above the stars of God I will lift up my throne, And I will sit down on the mountain of meeting, In the remotest parts of the north."

It was to be a one world order, a one wold religion under control of Satan himself. To gather together mankind in a single idea in order to control the people. Notice how Satan claims his throne will sit on the mountain of meetings. Early builders of the tower thought that it's location was that of the garden of Eden, therefore being an earthly representation of heaven on earth, a place for Satan's throne.

Ish 14:14 "I will go up above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself resemble the Most High."

His words speak for them self as to his intent, but what of Jehovah's words?

Ish 14:12 "How you have fallen from heaven, O shining one, son of the dawn! How you have been cut down to the earth, You who vanquished nations!"

If this was and always has been Satan's goal, then no doubt that hasn't changed over the years.

Gen 11:4 "They now said: “Come! Let us build a city for ourselves and a tower with its top in the heavens, and let us make a celebrated name for ourselves, so that we will not be scattered over the entire face of the earth.â€

The builders of the tower had a singular goal in mind in opposition to Jehovah. He had told them to multiply and to spread across the earth, but in defiance they wished to gather together in order to build a throne to Satan and to establish their own form of religion, worshiping false gods.

Gen 11:8 "So Jehovah scattered them from there over the entire face of the earth, and they gradually left off building the city."

Do we finally have an answer to what that heaven high tree in Daniel represents? Look again;Dan 4:10-11 “‘In the visions of my head while on my bed, I saw a tree in the midst of the earth, and its height was enormous. The tree grew and became strong, and its top reached the heavens, and it was visible to the ends of the whole earth."

Dan 4:14 "He called out loudly: “Chop down the tree, cut off its branches, shake off its leaves, and scatter its fruit!"

It is clear that the lesson in both instances remains the same, and it is stated here; Dan 4:17 "This is by the decree of watchers, and the request is by the word of the holy ones, so that people living may know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind and that he gives it to whomever he wants, and he sets up over it even the lowliest of men.†When you have someone like Nimrod, or Nebuchadnezzar setting themselves up as Gods, Jehovah will and has put them in their place. Ultimately it is Jehovah who sets up rulership over mankind.

Now this does not mean that Satan wont attempt to try and build his one world government and religion again. In fact we know this to be throughout prophecy. Is the prophecy of the heaven high tree in Dan 4 to let us know when that tower would start to be built once again? Maybe... There seems to be allot of connection...

It's interesting the materials used to build the tower; Gen 11:3 "Let us make bricks and bake them with fire.†So they used bricks instead of stone, and bitumen as mortar."

So they used clay bricks, look at this;

Dan 2:42,43 "And as the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of clay, so the kingdom will be partly strong and partly fragile. Just as you saw iron mixed with soft clay, they will be mixed with the people; but they will not stick together, one to the other, just as iron does not mix with clay."

Now we know from the ages of men like Paleg that the tower was built around 2200 BCE. ONE SOURCE / ANOTHER TIMELINE SOURCE

So what of those 7 times in Dan 4? If the tree in Dan 4 is to represent that lofty goal of Satan as he himself claimed and was represented in the tower then what, if anything, occurs 2520 years after Jehovah confused their language and they left off building it? Well if we use 2196+2520 we come to 325 CE. What is important about that year? Well it just so happens to be the year of the Nicene Creed when all representatives from the known world gathered together in one location to vote, or build a single idea of religion. They were gathered together to vote on the deity of Christ, the soul after death, the future of mankind and the earth. Although there was disagreement the final tally was unanimous creating what would go on to be what we know of today as the Roman Papal conglomeration, church and state. The iron might of Rome mixed with the clay brick of the tower of Babel and it's worship of false Gods separate from the truth and guidance from Jehovah.

Sure Revelation was to show what was to take place, however that of course didn't mean that there would be no run up to these future prophecy, or events that had already taken place. One only needs to look at the letters to the seven churches. There were many events that Jesus mentions that were and had been occurring within that needed to change. So these were past events. Jesus did not mean nothing in the book had occurred yet, he was simply saying what he said, that he was to reveal what is going to happen future. Nothing more, nothing less. No need to read anything into that any further.

Regardless, Rev 12:1-5 speaks of the time between the garden and Jesus coming to earth as a man.

The prophecies all have to be past and fulfilled at some point. So after they start to be fulfilled can you still say they must always mean future, because that's what Revelation means? Jesus meant simply "things to come". He did not say nothing in this book has occurred yet, or the like. So therefore your argument that Jesus said he was about to reveal what is to occur future is invalid once they start to occur. Now if your trying to say nothing in the book has occurred that's one thing, but Jesus words by no means can be used to prove that.

Neither here nor there, there is only one prophecy (Besides Rev 12) that I believe may have already occurred, and that is Rev 13:3. "I saw that one of its heads seemed to have been fatally wounded, but its mortal wound had been healed, and all the earth followed the wild beast with admiration."

Now, why do I think that's a possibility? What is the only one of the previous 8 kings mentioned alive in Rev after having been destroyed? That world power is Babylon. John himself told us it had fallen by his day in Rev 17, therefore the simplest understanding would be that Babylon is the death stroke that was healed in Rev 13.