I've been a little absent lately because I took on this subject again as it pertains to the heaven high tree in Dan 4. Why I would do that to myself I don't know, but there it is. Needless to say I think this subject could drive anyone to madness!

I don't think I need to give anyone here the history of this subject and the different beliefs regarding it, but I wanted to bring it up again just to share a few ideas that have come to mind during my recent study of it, and hopefully everyone will chime in, I think I need some fresh eyes.

We know the tree represented Neb, because Dan said so in 4:22. "it is you, O king"

We also see an almost exact example in Eze 31 representing Pharaoh and those with him being depicted of a similar heaven high tree.

The first thought would be that this tree in Dan 4 would represent Neb only, but then why do read in verse 17 that this event is for those living? "So those living may know Jehovah is ruler over mankind and he sets up over it who he wishes." Now, is that to mean anyone alive at any given moment, or is this to mean those alive when a certain event occurs?

We have this entire chapter of 4 surrounded by many other chapters that represent prophecies for the future, would Jehovah include one chapter in the middle that would not have future fulfillment? As an example chapters 2, 3, 5, 7, 8... Etc

Then we come to Revelation, we have a depiction of Babylon alive in the time of the end, the only previous ruling nations of the 7 named specifically.

When the tree is cut, the stump is banded by copper and iron. In the immense image of Dan 2 Greece is depicted by copper and Rome by Iron, is this to denote that these entities keep Babylon banded during their rules? Could an ax that cut down the tree be considered the silver that was Media and Persia and the silver of the immense image?

Is it naive to to think the 7 times has no other fulfillment then with Neb? Times are mentioned in several other books of Daniel that do have end time fulfillment and represent a 360 day year.

Yet another representation of this immense image is in Dan 5; "They drank wine, and they praised the gods of gold and silver, of copper, iron, wood, and stone." If you notice, these are the same materials as the image, and the wood and stone could be seen as clay would you not say? These are elements of bricks.

Then we have the beasts of Dan 7, these mirror the image as well, starting with the lion being Babylon. Take note that the lions wings were plucked and a heart of a man given it and it stands as a man. In chapter 4 Neb is given a heart of a beast and lives with the beasts. Is ch7 telling us this is the healing of a larger prophecy, is it a fall? What moment in time is this?

Rev 13; "and its mouth was like a lion’s mouth" Again we have a depiction of the lion as the head, hear being the "mouth", a part of the head. Given the bear and the leopard are mentioned in this beast, this no doubt is connected to those beasts in Dan 7.

Rev 17&18 Babylon shows herself very much alive. So being the only former ruling head of the seven depicted as alive, does that make Babylon the head that had a death stroke that healed in Rev 13?

Who is Babylon in the time of the end? Can it be determined by the 7 times?

Are the secular dates for Babylon correct, or are the WTS's? Could they both be mistaken?

Holy See joins UN / 1964-2520=557 BCE

UN established / 1945-2520=576 BCE

Babylon rebuilt / 1982-2520=539 BCE

What ever your idea of the identity of Babylon in the time of the end, what date does 2520 years previously bring you too? Can you connect 2520 years between to events that match your understanding of Babylon in our day?

Please feel free to brain storm an idea no matter how small. What connections are you thinking of after reading this post?

 

http://architecture.about.com/cs/countriescultures/a/saddamspalace.htm

"In 1982, Saddam's workers began reconstructing Babylon's most imposing building, the 600-room palace of King Nebuchadnezzar II."

 

Yea but, it's nothing more then interesting. Babylon was destroyed in 539 BCE and 2520 years later Saddam began rebuilding it, but that doesn't help anything. Babylon's location in Iraq is nothing more then a dessert sand pit with no significance on the world seen at all, certainly nothing to do with the Babylon of prophecy in Revelation, and if I had to guess Saddam began the reconstruction of Babylon because he knew of the prophecy. IDK...

It seems to simply be a tease...

 

Of that I have no doubt brother. Let's pray for Jehovah's spirit to each of us in this very difficult world, so that we can make it...​

High revving, I like it... Mid engine, short exhaust with flames out the back at least a foot! Classic American road racing styling, with Mclaren and Bugatti precision, and the Italian in your face sound...

Putting aside what I have said in the past about the identity of the head that had the death stroke that healed, it would almost be certain if letting scripture explain itself that the death stroke healed has to be Babylon...

Would you not agree?

You know, as I was writing this I was thinking about the lion in Rev 13. (I am bound and determine to figure this thing out! lol) The lion is depicted as the mouth in that beast, and if you notice in Dan 7 the horn that comes from the fourth beast has a mouth speaking arrogantly. What if that horn coming from the fourth beast is Babylon being healed, or coming back to life?

Rev 13:5 "It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies,"

Dan 7:8 "and there was a mouth speaking arrogantly."

We know the tree is banded by copper and iron (regardless if the silver could have been the ax), and so it would be from the iron that Babylon would have been allowed to grow again, so therefore it would be from that fourth beast.

Also notice;

Dan 11:30 “He will go back and hurl denunciations against the holy covenant and act effectively; and he will go back and will give attention to those leaving the holy covenant."

We know it's the horn in 7, and this entity in 11 that comes against the Holy covenant. So since Gods people go into captivity to Babylon in Revelation, then it seems there is a connection of the small horn to Babylon as well, and it is Babylon/lion that actually takes down the constant feature.

I need to think further on this...

 

Here's an interesting thought;

Gen 11:1-4 "Now all the earth continued to be of one language and of one set of words. As they traveled eastward, they discovered a valley plain in the land of Shi′nar, and they began dwelling there. Then they said to one another: “Come! Let us make bricks and bake them with fire.â€￾ So they used bricks instead of stone, and bitumen as mortar. They now said: “Come! Let us build a city for ourselves and a tower with its top in the heavens, and let us make a celebrated name for ourselves, so that we will not be scattered over the entire face of the earth.â€￾

Dan 4:11 "The tree grew and became strong, and its top reached the heavens, and it was visible to the ends of the whole earth."

What if the tree in Dan 4 represents what Babylon originally attempted to do, in that of creating that heaven high structure? And that it's cutting down was the moment Jehovah scattered mankind over the earth?

Gen 11:7 "Come! Let us go down there and confuse their language in order that they may not understand one another’s language.â€￾ So Jehovah scattered them from there over the entire face of the earth, and they gradually left off building the city. That is why it was named Ba′bel, because there Jehovah confused the language of all the earth, and Jehovah scattered them from there over the entire face of the earth."

Compare;

Dan 4:14 "He called out loudly: “Chop down the tree, cut off its branches, shake off its leaves, and scatter its fruit!"

What if it is that original desire of Babylon to build a heaven high structure that is the purpose of this whole prophecy?

If that is the case, look at this;

Nicene creed 325 CE - 2520 = 2196 BCE / The year Jehovah confused the language on earth. Hence the clay bricks of the tower of Babel mixing with the iron of Rome.

 

The understanding behind the idea of the tower of Babel and it's connection to the heaven high tree;

Immediately after the flood Satan attempted to establish a kingdom to himself at the tower of Babel. The entire concept of the tower was metaphorical. The construction of the ziggurat was to establish kingly worship with Satan as the head, and after Jehovah confused their languages at that time, this idea along with the pyramid structures known as ziggurats spread throughout the world, including Egypt, Asia and South America.

Satan's words below show his goal in creating this tower;

Ish 14:13 "You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to the heavens. Above the stars of God I will lift up my throne, And I will sit down on the mountain of meeting, In the remotest parts of the north."

It was to be a one world order, a one wold religion under control of Satan himself. To gather together mankind in a single idea in order to control the people. Notice how Satan claims his throne will sit on the mountain of meetings. Early builders of the tower thought that it's location was that of the garden of Eden, therefore being an earthly representation of heaven on earth, a place for Satan's throne.

Ish 14:14 "I will go up above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself resemble the Most High."

His words speak for them self as to his intent, but what of Jehovah's words?

Ish 14:12 "How you have fallen from heaven, O shining one, son of the dawn! How you have been cut down to the earth, You who vanquished nations!"

If this was and always has been Satan's goal, then no doubt that hasn't changed over the years.

Gen 11:4 "They now said: “Come! Let us build a city for ourselves and a tower with its top in the heavens, and let us make a celebrated name for ourselves, so that we will not be scattered over the entire face of the earth.â€￾

The builders of the tower had a singular goal in mind in opposition to Jehovah. He had told them to multiply and to spread across the earth, but in defiance they wished to gather together in order to build a throne to Satan and to establish their own form of religion, worshiping false gods.

Gen 11:8 "So Jehovah scattered them from there over the entire face of the earth, and they gradually left off building the city."

Do we finally have an answer to what that heaven high tree in Daniel represents? Look again;Dan 4:10-11 “‘In the visions of my head while on my bed, I saw a tree in the midst of the earth, and its height was enormous. The tree grew and became strong, and its top reached the heavens, and it was visible to the ends of the whole earth."

Dan 4:14 "He called out loudly: “Chop down the tree, cut off its branches, shake off its leaves, and scatter its fruit!"

It is clear that the lesson in both instances remains the same, and it is stated here; Dan 4:17 "This is by the decree of watchers, and the request is by the word of the holy ones, so that people living may know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind and that he gives it to whomever he wants, and he sets up over it even the lowliest of men.â€￾ When you have someone like Nimrod, or Nebuchadnezzar setting themselves up as Gods, Jehovah will and has put them in their place. Ultimately it is Jehovah who sets up rulership over mankind.

Now this does not mean that Satan wont attempt to try and build his one world government and religion again. In fact we know this to be throughout prophecy. Is the prophecy of the heaven high tree in Dan 4 to let us know when that tower would start to be built once again? Maybe... There seems to be allot of connection...

It's interesting the materials used to build the tower; Gen 11:3 "Let us make bricks and bake them with fire.â€￾ So they used bricks instead of stone, and bitumen as mortar."

So they used clay bricks, look at this;

Dan 2:42,43 "And as the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of clay, so the kingdom will be partly strong and partly fragile. Just as you saw iron mixed with soft clay, they will be mixed with the people; but they will not stick together, one to the other, just as iron does not mix with clay."

Now we know from the ages of men like Paleg that the tower was built around 2200 BCE. ONE SOURCE / ANOTHER TIMELINE SOURCE

So what of those 7 times in Dan 4? If the tree in Dan 4 is to represent that lofty goal of Satan as he himself claimed and was represented in the tower then what, if anything, occurs 2520 years after Jehovah confused their language and they left off building it? Well if we use 2196+2520 we come to 325 CE. What is important about that year? Well it just so happens to be the year of the Nicene Creed when all representatives from the known world gathered together in one location to vote, or build a single idea of religion. They were gathered together to vote on the deity of Christ, the soul after death, the future of mankind and the earth. Although there was disagreement the final tally was unanimous creating what would go on to be what we know of today as the Roman Papal conglomeration, church and state. The iron might of Rome mixed with the clay brick of the tower of Babel and it's worship of false Gods separate from the truth and guidance from Jehovah.

There is also reason to believe the small nation that helped the King of the north is the very same identity as the small horn in Dan 7, 8... Dan 11:23 "And because of their alliance with him, he will carry on deception and rise up and become mighty by means of a little nation."

This small horn becomes mightier and grows over the centuries until we see it in its current form as the lion and mouth of the beast in Rev 13, "It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies," Just as it is described in Dan 7, "and there was a mouth speaking arrogantly"

Now, I'm not going to be dogmatic on this subject, and am just attempting to allow scripture to explain itself, so I would love any feedback as I continue to consider this subject...

 

So, if I'm right, we've all been wrong about the death stroke in Rev 13 and when the iron mixed with clay of the feet and toes of the immense image of Dan 2.

It would appear there is no doubt the lion, bear and leopard mentioned in Rev are wholly connected to those same beasts in Dan 7. Therefore the lion in Rev 13 must represent Babylon. Now, since that city is the only one of the previous world powers mentioned that had fallen, and shows it alive again, it would appear that the death stroke that was healed must pertain to Babylon. That is the only conclusion we can come too without imposing our own understanding of history, and by taking our understanding solely from scripture.

Now that takes me back to "when", when did Babylon heal from it's death stroke?

It's interesting that we read in Dan 7 that Babylon's wings are cut but then stands up as a man;

Dan 7:4 "I watched until its wings were plucked out, and it was lifted up from the earth and was made to stand up on two feet like a man, and it was given the heart of a man."

Now, if we look at the clay that is mixed in with the iron in Dan 2 we see that the clay represents man/people. Dan 2:43 "Just as you saw iron mixed with soft clay, they will be mixed with the people; but they will not stick together, one to the other, just as iron does not mix with clay."

Now, although that is compelling, the truth may just well be in the tower of Babel account at Gen 11, and the heaven high tree in Dan 4.

Notice the construction material used to build that tower, they used clay! Gen 11:3 "Then they said to one another: “Come! Let us make bricks and bake them with fire.â€￾ So they used bricks instead of stone, and bitumen as mortar."

As I've mentioned already in this thread, (and just to continue the discussion) it seems there is good reason to connect the heaven high tree of Dan 4 with the tower of Babel. My previous post above goes into those connections between the two accounts including the original intent of Nimrod in opposition to Jehovah to build the tower up above the heavens in his worship of false gods, and so that they not be scattered over the earth as Jehovah commanded them. However, we know that Jehovah confused their language and did scatter them over the earth, just like the prophecy recorded in the heaven high tree in Dan 4 when that tree was cut down and the fruit scattered throughout the earth.

If this is the case and that heaven high tree does represent the original purpose of the tower of Babel, then those 7 times represent the time frame between the moment Jehovah scattered mankind around the world and the reestablishment of that gathering together of false worship, combined with a world power.

We know the Tower was built during the life of Paleg who was born in 2247, and we know the flood occurred around 2349. Babylon was founded about 2234 around the same time the tower was being built. We have a mass migration of people around 2188 throughout the world. This was also the date of the founding of Egypt and Greece was founded shortly after. So what occurred in between the building of the tower and these other cities beginning to pop up? After all it was the goal of Babylon for all mankind to be gathered together in one location. It was the intervention of Jehovah to confuse their language that created these other cities around the world.

As I've mentioned in my last few posts 2196 would fall right in this time period as a date that could have seen the moment Jehovah intervened and scattered mankind over the earth, beginning these other nations. Therefore bringing us back to our 7 times of Dan 4. 7x360=2520, and 2520 years after that moment at the tower we come to 325 CE and perhaps the moment that the clay mixed with iron and the toes of the immense image of Dan 2 came to be. The clay of the tower mixing with the iron of Rome.

If this is correct, that makes that death stroke that was healed in Rev 13 coming about in the year 325 CE. The similarities of what was established during that Niceen creed and the original purpose of the builders of the tower of Babel are uncanny. You will also notice the religious beliefs of teer step programs throughout the world, such as Scientology and Masonry where one must reach the next step of the ziggurat before receiving further enlightenment, and the idea of a single man set up over others such as a king or pope, and all the other forms of false worship such as the immortality of the soul and so on...

Everyone's been silent on this subject since I presented the idea...lol Come on, I would sure like some feedback... It is interesting though huh? I haven't been able to find a single reference online of anyone else connecting the tower of Babel with the heaven high tree and the 7 times yet. I usually like to read others ideas of why they believe certain things, but this seems to be a unique connection, but it also is quite impelling, do you not agree?

 

Dan 7:24b "As for the ten horns, ten kings will rise up out of that kingdom; and still another one will rise up after them"

"The Lateran Treaty of 1929 created Vatican City as a political city state. Constantine gave Pope Militades the land in 313 AD. In 326, the Constantinian Basilica was built on what is thought by many to be the tomb of St. Peter. Pope Symmachus (498-514 A.D.) constructed a palace on Vatican land."

Dan 7:7b "It was different from all the other beasts that were prior to it, and it had ten horns."

Huns or Alemani / Germany
Visigoths / Spain
Franks / France
Suevi / Portugal
Burgundians / Switzerland
Anglo-Saxons / England
Lombards or Bavarians / Italy
Ostrogoths / Wiped Out
Vandals / Wiped Out
Heruli / Wiped Out

Dan 7:8 "While I considered the horns, look! another horn, a small one, came up among them, and three of the first horns were plucked up from before it."

Heruli, the Ostrogoths, and the Vandals

 

You stated the answer right there. Humans/man/people are used to identify mans will, not Gods.

At the tower the will of "man" was taken away, and the heart of a beast given it, (beasts do the will of God). Neb's heart of a "man" (that is the will of man) was taken away from him and a heart of beast was given him (Jehovah's will). Dan 7 is telling us that the will of man is given back to the lion. That means back to the state of which the tower was being built, back to the will that Neb showed before he was cut down. Keep in mind while the tower was being built it had the heart of a man, it was Jehovah that took that heart of man away (mans will), while in Dan 7 that heart comes back to the lion. Therefore Dan 7 tells us that the lion is returned back to the state it was before Jehovah cut it down, whether that be Babel or Neb. Back to mans will, not Jehovah's.

Also, keep in mind that the horn comes from the fourth beast, the clay mixes with the iron. They are not the same entity, but they mix together.

Dan 2:43 "Just as you saw iron mixed with soft clay, they will be mixed with the people; but they will not stick together, one to the other, just as iron does not mix with clay."

You have to separate the two entities. Number one they don't come to existence at the same time. Number two they are shown combined in an unworkable union.

We know the iron is Rome, so therefore the clay/small horn must be a separate entity that comes from Rome and joins it, combining itself with it. The horns are territories of Rome and Dan 7 clearly says that a small territory will come up and grow bigger as time goes on, plucking up three of the other ten territories. This horn is just an entity within the fourth beast, but clearly not the whole.

So if it is the case that this horn/clay comes about sometime after the other ten horns of the fourth beast; "As for the ten horns, ten kings will rise up out of that kingdom; and still another one will rise up after them," (Dan 7:24) That means that this entity has a beginning sometime after Rome. So the question becomes when? Babylon is not Rome by itself. If Babylon is the small horn that comes against Gods people, and also the clay, then it is simply part of Rome and comes up at some point in Romes history.

It seems clear that the 7 times are to tell us when that heart of man is returned to the tree/tower, and we know it wasn't given it by Jehovah, because in both instances he took away the heart of man from them (mans will), therefore it's Satan that gives the heart of man back to the lion. The 7 times tell us when that clay/small horn/Babylon returns to that will of man to collect together in defiance to Jehovah in worship of false Gods, (Satan). It is a religious entity with a physical location on a map, no if ands or buts about it...