You are clearly spiritually blind Joshua and I have pity on you. Eventually though your eyes will open and you will see the truth. I spelled it out for you like I wrote it in Braille and you still didn't see it because you probably didn't even read it carefully to see that one loaf and cup was taken "During the meal" and one was clearly taken "after the meal". One was for the "many" and the other was for "YOU", the members of the Bride of Christ only. Open your eyes man!

 

Soon, your blinders will come off and you will be able to see. For now, you are in darkness. Can't make it any clearer for you or those that agree with you and I will not try as that would be futile.

 

Hi Frank,
As usual, I don’t see what you see in Paul’s letter to the Galatians. It is necessary to read all of the letter to understand the context. I do agree that not all of those “born again” will be a part of the Bride of Christ. But, yes, those of the Bride class (144,000), will have the heavenly hope. They will reign with Christ, as the Husband, and new King, and God of the New Heavens and New Earth. With all the angels available to Christ, why is it necessary to add to those ranks with people from earth?

I see the “other sons of God” as those who will receive a resurrection to a New Earth, along with the ancient Holy Ones such as Noah, Abraham, Isaac, etc. There is the question that remains about what kind of resurrection they will receive. Will they be a part of the 144,000 co-rulers? Or, will they be a part of those leaders on earth? Of course that leaves the question of them not being a part of the promise given to Abraham because they lived before that covenant was given. As it says, the 144,000 are from the 12 tribes.

What did Jesus mean when he said to his followers; “I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” ( Mt 8:11-12 NASB ) I assume that these “sons of the kingdom” are the Israelites under the Law of Moses, who Jesus said, “So take care how you listen; for whoever has, to him more shall be given; and whoever does not have, even what he thinks he has shall be taken away from him.” (Lk 8:18 NASB ) “I tell you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away.” ( Lk 19:26 NASB )

Again, another question; Are those mentioned of the 12 tribes physically from each branch of the tribes? Why would that be, seeing that Jesus says, “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it.” ( Mt 21:43 NASB )

So, I don’t pay much heed to what the WTB&TS interprets from the Bible. Nor do I care what any other denomination interprets. It is up to each individual to take in the knowledge. As far as future events and fulfillment of prophesy, I’ll wait to see how Jehovah and His Son carry out their plan. I will concentrate on attempting to become a better person acceptable to them. Hopefully I will be a part of the “earthly class” and help to restore it as Jehovah intended it to be, a garden paradise.

 

You already have a head start in understanding the deep things of God Tsaphah. You are clearly a good student of God's Word and you are open to the fact that you have only touched on the magnificence of his Word. The new covenant was made with Jesus and Jesus made that same covenant with his bride. There will be those who think they are a part of Christ' Bride but are not. That does not mean that they don't have salvation, it just means they were not selected by Jehovah or his wife (His Holy Spirit, the heavenly Mother). It is the Father and Mother that choose the Bride for their Son. The Bride does not choose themselves. The New Covenant was made between God and his Son while Jesus was on earth, just before he made it with the first members of his Bride. Only the Bride of Christ partakes of that covenant that is represented by the loaf and cup that was taken after the meal along with Jesus making this covenant with the first members of his bride. This covenant is their engagement and their marriage will take place in the heavens. The first presence marriage already happened in Nisan 2008, but the second presence !NC was recently celebrated in the heavens on 2016Nisan22. This could not occur until a 7 times penalty happened from 2008 to 2015, for their travesty with the U.N. . The marriages of the remnant of the First New Covenant Saints will occur after Christ comes on the 'clouds of heaven" that will shortly take place.

When Jesus stepped forward in heaven after the sin of Adam he agreed to supply a ransom for Adam. God agreed to this ransom and made a covenant with Jesus, which Jesus made with Adam. This we call the ARC, which stands for the Angelic Ransom Covenant. It is the superior covenant of the First New Covenant that Jesus made with his Bride and it includes everyone who will be adopted as a true Son of God, but may not necessarily be a part of the Bride of Christ. You see, when Jehovah said to Adam on the very day that you sin, you will die, dying. This was not symbollic for either Adam or Jehovah God or Jesus. Jehovah meant exactly what he said. And Adam indeed died that very day (as an angelic sour) for being a prototype of Jesus, Adam was both alive as a human soul and had reserved for him an angelic soul that he would take up when his time as a human was completed (under sinless circumstances). Yes, his human soul lived on for over 900 years and he died to his human life or soul (spirit & body = living soul).

So, without going into too many details of this there are too covenants that Jehovah made with his subjects that are to be celebrated at the Passover. Those that are "born again" and "Sons of God" but not part of the Bride of Christ partake of the ARC but do not partake of the 1NC which is restricted to the members of Christ's Bride. The ARC is one of the loaves and cups that is taken before the meal, and the 1NC is taken "after the meal" as described in scripture. That makes two out of the four that are consumed at the Passover.

That leaves two more. The first is the covenant that we call the 1AC which is the first Abrahamic Covenant. This is one of two Faith Covenants. Paul describes this covenant as the covenant of the "faith" of Abraham, while he was in "un-circumcision". This covenant was made by Jehovah God with Abraham for the simple act of faith that he showed toward Jehovah when Jehovah asked Abraham to leave his home and cross over the Euphrates River (which is a symbolism of baptism for Abraham, just as the flood was to Noah). Those with the "faith of Abraham" while in uncircumcision, which represents a simple faith in God like Abraham had at the time of the 1AC was made between him and Jehovah. Those with the "faith of Abraham" while in un-circumcision also have a loaf and a cup that they partake of also "before the meal". Lastly, Jehovah made another covenant with Abraham sometime later. This was also a covenant of Faith, but this Faith is more substantial than the simple faith of the 1AC. We call this the FRC, which stands for what we call the Faith Ransom Covenant. Paul also describes this aspect of Abraham's faith, yet instead of being the faith while in un-circumcusuion, this is the Faith that Abraham had when he got circumcised in his foreskin, which was adhered to by all male Israelites whether of natural birth or not. These are represented by those that first develop a simple faith of the 1AC and later they demonstrate their faith in Jehovah God by getting circumcised as the Jews would have during the Jewish age, and getting baptized in symbol of ones "faith" in Christ as a Christian, which is also symbollically a circumcision. These members of the FRC demonstrate that faith, like Abraham had while in circumcision by getting baptized as Christians.

So, we now see that there are four covenants that are celebrated that account for all the covenants that mankind could or would be in and would want to celebrate in one way or the other at the Passover celebration, as it is a celebration, not a wake. Four loaves and cups for four covenants. Two covenants for angelic life the ARC and the 1NC, and two covenants for Earthly Life in the 1AC or the FRC. Each of these are celebrated by a different group (body) and they also drink a distinct wine (blood). That is why Paul was making the argument for the Corinthians not to come to the Passover and eat everything is site like they had never eaten. They were instructed by Paul to "dicern the body" (that you are in by covenant). If you don't, you will end up eating and drinking of the emblems of a covenant that you do not beling, which could carry disastrous consequences. Just as the Bible does not spell out every detail of the Creation Account (many, many details are left out for us to discover on our own, so is the case with the detaills of the Passover. Each Gospel has certain details of each of the four covenants that we have discussed here. Paul adds the details in his discussion that fill out the rest. This is how God does it. He rarely gives all the details about important topics in only one location of his word. How do you think he keeps the details of his salvation plan hidden from the intellectual ones and reveals them to babes. This is how.

Now, a person who is in the 1NC (the Bride), male or female would also be a person with 1.) simple faith, 2.) faith (with works of circumcision or baptism), 3.) is a Son of God (born again into the ARC) and finally is a part of the 1NC and a member of the Beride Of Christ. These can or would partake of all the loaves and all the cups, as they are a member of each covenant.

If you simply have faith in God but have not progressed any farther you could or should partake of the 1AC the covenant of Abraham. If you have had simple faith and that simple faith has progressed enough for you to dedicate yourself in faith to God you could and should partake of the the 1AC & the FRC as you are in both covenants. If you are a born again Son of God you could and should partake of the ARC, which is the angelic ransom covenant, as well as the 1AC and the FRC as you are in are three.

That is how the Passover was celebrated in the First Century with Jesus and his disciples and should also be today. It will in the upcoming Passover from this system of things that is very close. I will not go into the details now, but eventually you will not only understand these things, but you will partake of them the correct way when the angels drive you from this Egypt and Babylon into the Promised Land of God's Kingdom. Don't worry if you can't get it now, you will eventually, I promise.

Most of the main characters of the Bible that were faithful are indeed members of the ARC. They are not however a part of Christ's Bride as they lived before that covenant was made by Jehovah to Jesus and then from Jesus to the members of his Bride. They will no doubt have prominent positions in the Kindgom of God in Heaven and possibly on Earth.

Frank

 

Gen 6:18 = First covenant given to Noah, his family, all living things, and the earth. (Gen 9:9, 11-17) No mention of plural covenants.
The arrangement with Adam and Eve is never mentioned as a covenant.

The next mention of a covenant (singular) is between Jehovah and Abram, and his descendants, for the land: “From the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates:” (Gen 15:18)

The next mention of “the covenant” with Abram, is in Gen 17:2-13. This is called an “everlasting” covenant. (Gen 17:13) It can also be called the “circumcision” covenant. (Gen 17:13-14) Again, it isn’t a separate covenant. It is part of the inclusive covenant between Jehovah, Abram, and his descendants. As mentioned in verse 11, it serves as a sign of the covenant. This covenant even covered Abrams servants born into his household and those he bought. (Gen 17:13) It is still one covenant, and it continued through Isaac. (Gen 17:21) There were different aspects within the covenant, but it was still a singular covenant.

Covenants are like legal agreements. They may only have one condition written, or mentioned by verbal agreement. They also may contain several/multiple agreements, yet still be one covenant, as in the covenant between Jehovah and Abram.

Another covenant we can consider is the “Law” given to Moses, and the nation of Israel. It is not referred to as the “Laws”, but “the Law”, which has many aspects, or conditions to it. As far as the two sacrifices you mention, they are not to be considered two separate sacrifices. They are two portions of “a requirement” as stated by “the Law”.

The apostle Paul speaks to those who were under the old “Law” as “the first covenant” (singular), in his letter to the Hebrews. “If that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no need for a second.” (Heb 8:7 NWT) He then quotes from Jeremiah: “Behold, days are coming,” declares [Jehovah], “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt,” ( Jer 31:31-32 NASB ) You will notice there is no plural used for the Hebrew, or Greek, translated for more than one covenant.

The Greek word used by Paul, when quoting Jeremiah, is diatheke (dee-ath-ay'-kay), covenant (singular). This is the same word used in the Septuagint. Strong’s definition is: a contract (especially a devisory will):--covenant, testament. While Paul continues speaking of this new covenant he says; “In his saying ‘a new covenant,’ he has made the former one obsolete. Now what is obsolete and growing old is near to vanishing away.” (Heb 8:13 NWT) Along this line of thought, as Strong’s says, (especially a devisory will), Paul says: “For where there is a covenant, the death of the human covenanter needs to be established, because a covenant is valid at death, since it is not in force as long as the human covenanter is living.” (Heb 9:16-17 NWT) It is like a will to those still living to inherit. It is a singular covenant with multiple clauses, just as my will/covenant is worded.

I believe there is confusion about the second loaf and the second cup of wine. The first loaf and cup were for the celebration of the passover, as required to recognize it. The second loaf and cup were to initiate the “new covenant”. This covenant wasn’t about who goes to heaven, or who stays on earth. It’s about the prospect of “eternal” life. Or, the opportunity to live in the kingdom, promised and established by Jehovah and His Son, who will become the King.

 

Hi Tsaphah: You go with that! If there was not a covenant made when Adam sinned, there was no reason for Adam and Eve to go on. It was by way of the covenant between Michael and Jehovah that gave "the world", which was mankind alienated from God to go on. It was in essence the creation of the world. By means of that original covenant that the world had reason to go on. Legal reason. Michael essentially said, here I am send me"!

As far as I can see Tsaphah covenants are not retroactive. They apply from their establishment forward. If you are going to have a retroactive covenant, I would think it should be mentioned from the beginning of the covenant, shouldn't it? So if the first covenant that is made is with Noah, I guess all those that lived before that covenant was made are toast.

Plus, Jesus gave his life "soul for soul" not soul for ten billion souls, it doesn't work that way. Jesus ransomed Adam. Romans tells us that because one man sinned we all die because we all sinned. But because Jesus died we all have life. Jesus ransom is not applied to every person who has ever lived. But if Adam is ransomed by Jesus that sin is no longer applied to all of Adam's progeny. But because Adam was ransomed, all his children go to and belong to the ransomer. That's why Jesus is our everlasting Father because he bought Adam's fathership rights with the ransom. Jesus agreed to ransom Adam at the beginning of the world.

 

The new covenant is clearly between Jesus and the members of his bride only. The new covenant is not for mankind in general.

“However, you are the ones who have stuck with me+ in my trials;+ 29 and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom,+ 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom,+ and sit on thrones+ to judge the 12 tribes of Israel.+ Luke 22

Jesus did not make the new covenant with mankind in General and neither did Jehovah. he made the new covenant with his wife only. Now, it was only 11 of the faithful ones there at the time, but it is his wife that "sticks to him" as he sticks to her.

That is why a man will leave his father and his mother and he will stick to* his wife, and they will become one flesh.+ Gen. 2: 24

So, that particular cup and loaf were specifically for the "new covenant" between Jesus and the members of his wife. Paul, pointed out that people would have to make sure that they were a part of that "body" of Jesus wife to partake of that loaf and cup. It was taken "after the meal" which would separate it from the loaf and cup taken "while they were eating" which would have been another covenant and would be represented by a different loaf and cup. The loaf would define the "body" of the covenant and the cup would define the blood that was shed for that covenant.

Jesus said that the cup drank with the new covenant "is the blood of the new covenant" not any other covenant. So, the cup drank with the loaf eaten "while they were eating" as opposed to "after they had finished eating" would mean something completely different and would have come from a different source as well. Wake up! You cannot possibly eat the same loaf and drink the same cup "before the meal", "while they were eating" and finally "after they were finished eating the meal". They are different covenants represented by different loaves which represent different covenant "bodies" which different cups of wine representing different sources of blood.

Give me a logical and reasonable reason that the Bible would write it this way and only mean one covenant with a single mediator and a single sacrifice. The body of Immanuel that Jesus gave in sacrifice was a perfect "human" body which could only buy back "human" souls. The angelic body that Michael "emptied out of" in Philippians 2 was an everlasting angelic body that Jesus/Michael gave up when he left heaven to come to earth and live in Immanuel's body "that was made for him". This everlasting angelic body had the value that was necessary to ransom "everlasting beings" that would make up the body of his "wife". A perfect human body could not do this. A thousand perfect human bodies could not buy one "everlasting soul" or angel. Two different sacrifices were necessary and that's what you got from Jehovah and Jesus. Actually, there was even more than that but you are just not capable of understanding that yet. You are having enough trouble understanding this. I can't make it any easier for you. You will have to put your spiritual thinking caps on and try to wash from your minds pre-existing ideas that are holding you back.

 

You will get this when the Holy Spirit is poured out. That's when the disciples really got it was after Jesus/Michael/that new name poured out his Father's Holy Spirit. You will understand so much more when Jesus/.Michael/ that new name pours out his Holy Spirit as he is now God. Not a part of any Trinity but since he has greater love as anyone could have by laying down his life for others and God is Love, Jesus is Love, so he is now God. But he will always be God Jr.

 

Jesus layed down his earthly body, his angelic body Phil 2, and when he was resurrected he was made higher than the angels so he now resides in a Divine Body like his Father. And why not who else does Jehovah really call his Son. Hebrew 1....

For example, to which one of the angels did God ever say: “You are my son; today I have become your father”?+ And again: “I will become his father, and he will become my son”?+ 6 But when he again brings his Firstborn+ into the inhabited earth, he says: “And let all of God’s angels do obeisance to him.”* Hebrews 1

 

All Christians are in the New Covenant , for a Kingdom, and all have exactly the same instructions, hope, and all are to 'listen to my voice'.

One or the other today, as Utuna said, may still be influenced by WT theology( doctrine), and be holding onto a GC "Good News".

But, if a person wishes to take doctrinal glasses off, he will see the words of Christ are one way...not two roads...just one. Now, at the very end, when Satan's system is near to destruction, all those who refuse the mark of the beast, and 'do good to Christ's brothers', , etc. and who are spared divine wrath at the end, and who pass through the Armageddon judgement...

will live on earth.

Outside the earthly 'judgement day' resurrection,....their should be no one with God's spirit saying, "I am one of the Great Crowd class who wants to live on earth, not anointed ..."....as that is not taught by Christ...that down through the decades, Christians are gathered into two groups; heavenly and earthly. Again...WT religion.

 

Just because we are humans, with fleshly bodies, and have an override in our psyche' that is, a desire to stay alive, we are prone to want to live on earth, sure.

But, even if we are Christians, and born of God's spirit, we STILL look forward to living here on earth and training, teaching, even policing the evil that will spring up.

Don't mistake normal human desires with the hope Jesus teaches, as WT has capitalized upon.

Paul says we are to set our desires on the things ahead, and we have a hope that exists in the heavens. After reading Revelation, one clearly sees the temple; Christ's bride, the '144,000' come down out of heaven, and rule on the earth, among mankind, just as Jesus came and resided here, and ate, met with, instructed , etc . after his resurrection. This is as much a portrayal of what the anointed Christians (all Christians) are supposed to set their minds upon.

"I am going my way to prepare a place for you, that where I am you may be."

Once we receive adequate training, we no doubt will be coming back down here to assist in the post Millennial Resurrection, and making of this Earth new. So, we will be here again, no doubt eating, having bodies like Christ had after resurrected, etc. Surely, if we're needed above for something else, we will have transport back and forth somehow, just as angels do now.

And as to angels; didn't they appear human-like? Eat, drink, and 'party' with Abraham, ? Lot? Mary, etc.

So, we don't have to assume those with the heavenly hope are ghosts living in ether. But have bodies, and enjoy what Jesus said, "eat, and indeed drink with me in my Kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel."

The heavenly hope is just the beginning of a large body of administrators/rulers/teachers protectors of the human race, that no doubt will number many, many billions on just the one planet alone.....possibly at first. But who knows as mankind live indefinitely, whether we will move out into the galaxy(s), and begin terra-forming as we GROW? All possible with infinite knowledge, and the power the Heavenly rulers will possess, all for the advancement of mankind. Maybe that is what the , 'New Heavens' actually infers? 2 Peter 3:13 (at least in part)

 

Hopeless!

 

How very interesting one and all,

Jesus said a interesting thing @ John 6:65

"This is why I have said to you, no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

Bible Knowledge does not necessarily mean that one has been granted by the Father to come to Jesus.

The calling and choosing is only from Jehovah and not any man.

Jehovah's spirit is controlled by Him and not us.

Understanding of anything is a gift from our Father.

Age or understanding or position in any organization means nothing.

It is only by being granted understanding by the Father that means anything.

May Jehovah grant all of us here this understanding.

Joe

 

Amen, Joe.

 

Then expression 'heavenly hope', that was not the exception, but the rule for all Christians originally, was it not?

So, if one has that hope today, inspired by first century examples, inspired Apostles, and Christ Jesus...

Should we mock that one, saying, "You are hopeless." ?

Or should we begin to back up, and take another look at WHAT the hope is/ was given to those who listened to Christ, and believed his words...

The 'HopeFUL'.

 

Show me the scriptures that say that Christians had the heavenly hope.
Frank

 

All First Century Christians.