Heavenly Hope.

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Gabriel, Feb 19, 2015.

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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Mth 11:12 "From the days of John the Baptist until now, the Kingdom of the heavens is the goal toward which men press, and those pressing forward are seizing it."
     
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    Frank Conger

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    Hi Josh:

    That's interesting but you never impressed me as a everyone goes to heaven kind of guy.

    Frank
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Jesus said "Until now", simply meaning up until that point.
     
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    Frank Conger

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    That's interesting too because if Jesus had not even made the new covenant with his father for a Kingdom yet, how could these ones spoken of by Jesus have been pressing forward to seize something that did not even exist yet. Or, is the New Covenant retro active? Where is the explanation for that? Jehovah has to make a covenant with someone "before" they can offer that covenant to others. I don't think it works retroactively. If it says retroactive somewhere I have not seen, show it to me.

    Frank
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    "Pressing forward too" to me, has a connotation of heading for something. You can travel toward something before reaching that destination. This kind of reasoning is used in other locations of scripture, that of moving toward something before that something exists.

    Jesus was clearly gathering his disciples (and others) to rule with him in his future kingdom, therefore they had expectations of being with him in heaven. We know they understood this, even before the Holy Spirit was poured out, and while Christ Jesus was still alive.

    To me Jesus's words are very simple, he was stating that no one before John (and including John, who were then dead) would enter the kingdom of the heavens, but that anyone living (unlike John) at that moment were pressing toward the heavenly kingdom when the Holy Spirit would be poured out, unless of course they died before that happened, hence the reason for even mentioning John, because his death before the Holy Spirit was poured guaranteed he would not rule in heaven.
     
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    John S

    John S Member

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    Hey Frank; just read the New Testament....there is no other consideration than meeting Christ on his return, then being led before the Father in heaven and living in 'prepared places' in "my Father's house". John 14:1-4

    To worship with truth, and have a secure knowledge for our faith, we must follow what Christ says, not interpret his words to fit this or that religious doctrine. Titus 1:9

    In the end, God judges hearts. But right now, we will be used in the ministry of gathering the 'lost sheep of the house of Israel', and become 'one' with God and his son through the 'rebirth to a living hope, it is reserved in the heavens for you'. ! Peter ch.1
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2016
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    Frank Conger

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    Thanks John, that's all I need. Whew!
     
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    John S

    John S Member

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    Well, the scriptures are plain, that's why I recommended you read them. Faith, though, in what they are saying is your real issue, isn't it?

    I can't help but notice you are having not a little trouble believing in inspiration/animation/rebirth of God's spirit, along with the basics of Christianity itself....and the Bible itself, whether it's inspired.

    So, as I said to another writer, domenicp...

    Each man and woman has his own responsibility to research and read God's word with a humble heart, and make his own decision . No matter how it gets related to anyone, the matter of faith rests in your hands, and God's. I can't put faith into your heart, although another person can stumble others with their doubts and lack of faith in God and his word.

    In the end, all I' and other Christians am required to do, is point you to the way. Whether you walk in it will depend on you. I do not have to write 100's of thousands of oratory; the Bible should and does stand alone to be more than enough proof for a solid foundation of faith in God and his way to life through his son's teachings.

    There are many opposers. So beware all readers of those trying to destroy faith in God, Christianity, and his word.
     
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    Frank Conger

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    I wish I had both your faith and your ability to truly understand the Word of God. I have been lost for so long John, please rescue me from my ignorance!

    Frank
     
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    Frank Conger

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    I never thought to read the new testament. Great advice, but where do I get one?
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Faith is certainly not something I would say Frank lacks...

    We have our disagreements as to scripture, but as far as I'm concerned we just need to let time pass as we discuss our understandings, without belittling...

    None of us are going to know we made it until our Lord knocks on the door...

    At least here, we all worship the true God, knowing he is not a triad.
     
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    Frank Conger

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    Thanks Joshua, John had me doubting myself. Whew, that was close!

    Frank
     
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    John S

    John S Member

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    Well, sorry Frank, that you feel I am condescending toward you. But you say many things that disparage the word of God, and Christianity. You flip-flop a lot, and then come back and quote scripture later. Sometimes I don't know where you are coming from, whether you are a believer in the word or not.
     
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    Frank Conger

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    Name a few. I flip flop? I think I quote scripture as much or more than anybody. Don't know what you are reading. John, when it comes down to it I don't really give a rats behind what you think. You clearly only have a minimal grasp of God's Word and even that is questionable. But I will say this, I don't think I have ever questioned your faith, no matter how displaced I may think it is. That is a pretty bodacious thing to do my friend. Your simple faith is fine for you. I wish you well with it. I am quite secure in my faith.

    Frank
     
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    John S

    John S Member

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    Well Frank, for instance, correct me if I'm wrong; didn't you write the idea that the holy spirit is angels?

    And don't you feel people who are anointed with the spirit are crazy/mis-informed?

    And I believe you also believe the Bible is not inspired of God, and it cannot be viewed as first-century Christians did; guided by holy spirit for all generations to come?
     
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    John S

    John S Member

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    On second thought, Id like to dismiss myself from this conversation.
     
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    Frank Conger

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    Hi John:

    You have the habit of attributing statements to me that I never said. I have never said that people who are anointed with Holy Spirit are crazy or ill informed. I think that some people who "claim" that they are anointed with Holy Spirit may be crazy and ill informed, but the two ideas are clearly distinct from one another. Please show me where I have ever said or implied that the Bible is not the inspired word of God. I have never even suggested such an idea. As regards the Holy Spirit, do me a favor and read Acts 8, the entire chapter and then get back to me. I have read a lot of comments that you have written John and many of them you could never attribute to inspiration from Holy Spirit. I do not pick and choose who is adopted by God as a Son, and I don't and have never claimed to but I read what people say and I can get a pretty good idea whether or not they have insight into the mind of God. You have faith, and that is enough. I am not in a competition with you or anyone else on this board. I tell you how I see it and you can do with the information what you want.
     
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    Frank Conger

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    Which one of those ideas of mine that you mentioned was or is a "flip, flop"?
     
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    John S

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    To you, Frank; you said...."You have the habit of attributing statements to me that I never said. I have never said that people who are anointed with Holy Spirit are crazy or ill informed. I think that some people who "claim" that they are anointed with Holy Spirit may be crazy and ill informed, but the two ideas are clearly distinct from one another."

    Ok, I will try to dissect what I say into a few simple categories.

    Now, I asked if you said the above things, and so , you have given an answer.

    I take you at your word here, and you have admitted you are not born of the spirit. That really is the crux of all the problems WT passed down to us. THAT is the legacy we received from them; a holy-spirit-less religion. ...NOT...the spirit and truth worship Jesus promised.

    Now, you claim to be able to judge with accuracy whether a person has been born again, it SEEMS...you are saying this...correct me if I'm wrong...

    Maybe you will remember a scripture spirit-filled Christians have quoted here many times...not just myself ;

    1 Cor. 2: 14-16 "But a physical man does not receive the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know them, because they are examined spiritually.. However, the spiritual man examines indeed all things, but he himself is not examined by any man. For "who has come to know the mind of Jehovah, that he may instruct him?" But we do have the mind of Christ."

    You asked me to read Acts 8. My favorite chapter, among many, as it explains what happens when a person receives the holy spirit..and is "saved"...as some Christians call it. There is generally among Christian anointed a certain day/time they can point to...where they had communication with God, through prayer, and he answered them with this knowledge;

    "The blood of Christ forgives all your sins."

    This really is the basic truth of Christianity from Christ's mouth; our sins are forgiven , because we have repented, and put faith in Jesus' promise that his blood is precious, and forgives our sins; all...throughout our life...not just the ones we may have committed before we accepted him as our savior. Providing we don't turn evil, of course. (see Acts 2:38,39)

    This 'saved' condition, this love of God and his son...is freely given, as well as the spirit, too...and is the greatest motivation that provides drive, appreciation, and love in a Christian's heart. It is the knowledge you are greatly loved; and will be protected and nurtured throughout your life, and beyond, by a real, loving Father, and have a fine big brother/Lord, who you want to come dwell within you alongside Father Jah....aiding you to be like Christ in all you do and think.

    "We do have the mind of Christ."

    These are the goals/waypoints Christians are given by Christ; repentance, knowledge, and acceptance of the spirit re-birth;reboot. Become sons and daughters of God through a total conversion away from sin and a desire to become a Christian , and meet the Lord again in the future, or when you die...to be with him in order to further the training we need, and with renewed bodies, we will be able to finish our training. Then we will be used to restore the human race.

    But only with the holy spirit of God and Christ inside us...as it is impossible to do; have the 'mind of Christ'...without he himself (and Father) being inside us.

    That is why, if you say, "I am not a Son of God, and have not received the Lord inside me...or been adopted to the heaven-born,..." etc. ....then where are we, really? And we further question all...inside, and outside( especially) the JW religion...and actually MOCK them, saying they have a demon.....

    So, where are you in the truth? Are you full of scripture? Believing you have the 'knowledge of God', more than anyone? Or at least more than these, "demon-filled fundamentalists who get saved, and are high-strung and over-the-top emotional-wise?

    That is the prevailing attitude of the rank-and-file Witness (self-included)

    Yet, Jesus said, "If you do not become as this child.....you cannot see the Kingdom of God."

    Many, many persons in this world are spirit-filled, although having VERY little education, and/or knowledge of 'all scripture'.

    But they "love the Lord", and are sincere, faithFULL, and constant in their attendance at their churches, and zealous for what is Christian, repudiating un-Christian talk, ways, and goals...performing special ministries suited to their abilities, and praising God and Christ every day, and witnessing to Jesus at every opportunity.

    Maybe, you and other readers here have met some of these persons at work, or door to door, and were impressed...at their staunchly loyal faith, and puzzled as to WHY Jehovah doesn't turn their minds to the 'Truth' WT gobbles out world-wide like turkeys calling all hens in mountain and vale...

    Because the message of WT, is not one they recognize at all...because they already know Jesus Christ and his message, simple, powerful, motivating...and the message WT really preaches is;

    "God has created an earthly, man-made organization/corporation we must now listen to and obey...and you are not to be born of the spirit, and be taught by it anymore."

    But they are too late, because Christ already has captured their love, and given them the witness they are born of God; the spirit. WT is a total stranger to them, and WT's voice they do not recognize.

    To me, Frank, I am a brother to those who are born of Christ and Father Jehovah. The knowledge they give, spoken about in scripture and experienced daily in life, is the same. The miracles, feelings, drive, and desire to experience the first resurrection, and Christ at work in our lives every day...providing small miracles that prove he and Father are right there with us...actually speaking words and scriptures in our minds at times. I find these people in different places, churches of many denominations, and online among former, and still ...JW's-in-hiding.

    And that is a shame...they have to hide, and are ashamed....scared of the consequences of fully giving themselves to Christ's service...and public ministry.

    You may never know the truth of what I have written. You may mock, scoff, and be puzzled, and scorn it. If so, I am sorry ..for you, and those here who have not received the intimacy of what is called, 'born of the spirit'.

    But until you receive it, can you really even know what it is all about?

    John 17:21..... "I am not praying only for these men but for all those who will believe in me through their message, that they may all be one. Just as you, Father, live in me and I live in you, I am asking that they live in us, that the world may believe that you did send me. I have given them the honor that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one- I in them and you in me, that they may grow complete into one, so that the world may realize that you sent me and have loved them as you loved me. Father I want those whom you have given me to be with me where I am; I want them to see that glory which you have made mine- for you loved me before the world began.

    "Father of goodness and truth, the world has not known you, but I have known you and these men now know that you have sent me. I have made yourself known to them and I will continue to do so that the love which you have had for me may be in their hearts- and that I may be there also."

    This is the adoption, the brotherhood Jesus has with the reborn ones. This is what Acts 8 is explaining.

    I hope all readers, not just yourself , Frank...come to experience, for then, you will be entering into the fold of brothers of Christ, the sons of the Kingdom, as Christians are called and chosen to be 'one' with Christ. All Christians are meant to be in this fold...not just 'followers of WT', sadly, a great lie, that is certainly NOT the 'good news' Jesus ever preached.
     
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    Frank Conger

    Frank Conger Guest

    Hi John:

    I have never questioned your or anyone else's faith, that is a very personal matter. I have never claimed to be able to detect whether or not a person has been adopted as a "Son of God", as that is squarely between Jehovah, Jesus and the person themselves. What I said was I thought it was clear when a person spoke or wrote down their thoughts whether or not they were being led by the Spirit of God. If, what they say or write is in harmony with the scriptures and makes sense then there is a chance they are being led by the Spirit. If what they say makes no sense at all in relationship to the Word of God that we already have, then I question the source of that knowledge and it gives me doubts as to it's origin.

    It is clear that you have faith John and that is a good thing. I asked you to read Acts 8 for a purpose, actually two. Did you notice the relationship between Philip and the one guiding him? How would you explain that relationship? Tell me what you get out of that chapter and we can perhaps have a discussion on it.

    What do you know about covenants as spoken in the Bible? You know that God does nothing without a covenant or a legal agreement between him and the mediator and the covenentor? Yes?

    How many covenants has God made between himself and mankind through the various mediators? Care to venture a guess, aided by Holy Spirit? Which of these covenants has to do with you and I ? Can you name them? How does a covenant work? What do you "inheret" from the various covenants? Please give me your thoughts on this matter. It is very important John and you will see why during out discussion. But first, what did you learn from Acts 8 and what do you know about covenants between Jehovah God and Man? When was the first covenant made? Who was it made with? Who was the covenant to ransom? Who was the mediator of that covanant? What was the blessing of that covenant? Who was the blessing mediator of that covenant? These are all important questions and I wish that you would answer them for me.

    "He will crush* your head,+ and you will strike* him in the heel.” Genesis 3:15b Now the bible does not come out and say that at this point God had made a covenant with someone, but because he said and wrote down these words, we know that he did. He had to have done so. Why? Because "all his way are justice" Deut. 32:4. He does everything between himself and his creations with "justice" or "legally" without loopholes.

    So, who did Jehovah mediate this first covenant with? Who was the mediator? Who was the earthly blessing mediator? What was the blessing of the covenant? Please tell me if you know. This is a very important covenant for you and I and everyone else. The problem is hardly anyone knows about it. They skipped ahead without understanding the beginning of God's Book.

    Don't forget you explanation of Acts 8. Just a reminder!

    Frank
     

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