OK, first, I apologize for saying "Acts 8; one of my favorite passages..." I was thinking of Romans 8...so much of my diatribe ( rather a rebuttle, but you may have felt like you were being challenged) there was about R8.

And my memory is poor as I am somewhat Alzheimer's at this age , for a fact. So what you believe has escaped me .

Acts 8, OK.

So Phillip was the one showing great signs and portents from the spirit, but the hearers did not receive the spirit until the Apostles came down to Samaria.

I believe I heard you speak that no one today has God's spirit because the Apostles are not alive to lay their hands on people presently...we can cut to the chase here.

How many people received the holy spirit at pentecost is the example I gave. The spirit came directly from Jesus and those assembled; men and women , old men, young women, old alike...received the re-birth. Whether they had special powers, as Phillip; tongues, miraculous works, etc. That is the point. Jesus said only those re-born of God's spirit, will be his brothers. And at the end when he returns, MANY will be his brothers; in fact there will be a world-showdown-war between Jesus' brothers and Satan and his seed at the end. Look to Jesus' prophecies on this.

You still may be reminded that until you receive the spirit, you will not understand it's operation, and that is what you are trying to get me to do; leading me into your belief...no one has the spirit today...for the Apostles are all dead.

Is this your point?

 

Now, as for covenants;

Law Covenant, Rainbow Covenant. New Covenant for the Kingdom., Abrahamic Covenant , Covenant with David...Solomon (renewal of Daid's) Covenant with tribe of Judah

Contracts, promises, sealed with blood in some cases.

Sure. But the 'covenant' for God's kingdom, and everlasting life from what the Kingdom does, that is all from us becoming Christ's followers and agreeing to his laws. Then the spirit comes once we agree to what he wants us to do. Knowledge first, then spirit next, in that order.

But, to have some great in-depth knowledge? Not required at all. because Christ and the Apostles repeatedly emphasized a simple faith, and repentance; not great amounts of technical data. Or intimate knowledge of symbolisms initiated by the Law code, although this will come in time to any serious Bible student as time and ability permit; like Paul.

Look at Acts 2:37-42 These Jews and converts were to repent, and have faith in Jesus as the Messiah, and Peter did not say a fig about 'covenants'..."Oh make sure you know your covenants correctly , or God won't grant you the spirit!...."

You , though , seem to think you can bypass receiving holy spirit in your life, and understand 'all things'. That is not what Christ or Paul state, though.

Spirit, and truth...not just "I just want knowledge".

Like that guy (the magician Simon) in Acts 8. He wanted the 'secret power' of the spirit, not the love, mercy, and all God's qualities it bestowed.

You must put the horse first; not the apple cart. Knowledge is important, and required. But, I don't believe it ...the covenant chapters of the Bible...are near as important as what Peter stated at pentecost.

People I have spoken to for years now, who are repentant and have the holy spirit beyond any doubt in my mind...we never broached the subject of, ...'do you really understand all the covenants, and the typical representations of things in the heavens',...?

That being more mental, than having heart motives moved by the spirit to realize our sinfulness, and the need for God and a savior who will lead us to eternal life.

I'm sure you follow this.

 

Hi John:

First of all, there you go again, putting words into my mouth. I have never said that "mere knowledge" is as important or more important than faith. But the "knowledge of God" is what we all strive for.

You didn't answer my questions. Please just answer the questions. What was the covenant made in the garden of Eden? Who was the covenant made with? What was the covenant blessing? Who was the earthly covenant mediator?

Also, you never told me what the relationship was between Philip and the one who led him in his ministry?

Can you just answer those two questions?

Frank

 

OK Frank, but I don't see any covenants mentioned in Eden at all.

Pronouncements...prophesies, yes, but no contracts with stipulations binding upon both parties consenting to mutually binding conditions; i.e. covenant/contract

Unless you mean, if you eat of the fruit you will die?

Phillip;

The angel of the Lord gave Phillip the direction to go down to the south road

 

Hi John:

If Jehovah said to Satan the prophecy that "He will crush* your head,+ and you will strike* him in the heel.”+, there must be a legal precedent for him to say this. Remember John, Jehovah doesn't do anything unless it is lawful and just. He does this by means of covenants or legal agreements. Jehovah doesn't break his own laws, so he uses covenants.

Satan was a murderer, so he could justifiably send Michael/Jesus to put him to death. That would get rid of Satan but would not do anything for sinful mankind. God made the first covenant with Michael/Jesus in the Garden or in Heaven because of what happened in the garden between Adam, Eve and Satan. This is the only reason to allow the human race to go on. Why let Adam and Eve reproduce if it is just an operation in futility? No, he made a covenant with Jesus , which in essence "created the world" (the world being sinful mankind seeking redemption from sin and death). That covenant between Michael and Jehovah gave man a hope for the future.

We call this the ARC for short for (Angelic Ransom Covenant). Michael stepped forward and said, "here I am, send me" when Jehovah called for a volunteer to "ransom" Adam and his sin. This was no little thing. Adam was a directly created Son of God so was like Jesus in the sense that he had two lives, one as an indefinitely lasting human and life as an angel when his life course was complete on Earth (he was 'born again' like Jesus and ever other "Son of God".

Before you say "wait a minute" remember that Jehovah told Adam that "on the day that you eat of it 'dying you will die'". Well Adam did not "die" physically on that very day (he died angelically), he lost the life that he would have had after his earthly time was over. Then 930 years later he also died as to the flesh. He died twice, therefore Michael had to agree to give two lives, just like the two sacrifices given daily at the Temple of the Jews that would remind them of what the Messiah would do for them.

This was the reason for the "two" continual sacrifices at the temple day and night. They were to remind the Israelites that the Messiah would give two lives up in ransom of the two lives that Adam lost in Eden.

In Philippians 2 it tells us that Michael gave up his angelic soul (life) when he came to the earth. He did not take that life back but gave it in sacrifice to Jehovah for the angelic life that Adam lost (Jesus was made higher than the angels and returned to heaven and Jehovah presented him with a new Immortal Divine Body. Then he "took a slaves form" when he took over Immanuel's body at Immanuel's baptism by John in the Jordan river in 30 CE. Three and a half years later Jesus also gave up that fleshly body that Jehovah "prepared for him" Hebrews 10:5-7, which was the ransom for Adam's fleshly life that he lost in Eden and gave up in death 930 years later. This was the sacrifice that covered Abraham as the Mediator of the covenant between God and Abraham for indefinately lasting life as a human on earth. All those with faith who are not "born again" are sons of that covenant and have the promise of life on earth under the Kingdom with the promise of "born again" life after the 1,000 years of the Kingdom are over.

This ARC is a totally different covenant than the new covenant made between Jesus and his bride at the memorial in 33 CE and every since. The new covenant that is between Jehovah and Jesus and then Jesus and the Bride is only between them, Jesus and the 144,000 members of his Bride. If you are a member of a covenant to be an everlasting angel in heaven, you are either a member of the ARC made in Eden between Jehovah and Michael, or you are a member of the new covenant made between Jesus and Jehovah in 33 CE. This covenant between Jehovah and Jesus made in 33 CE was a wedding or engagement gift from Jehovah to his Son Jesus and then Jesus made that same covenant between him and all that would be a part of his Bride, the 144,000 chosen humans who would have everlasting life in the heavens with their husband Jesus. You can actually be part of both covenants the ARC and the New Covenant. The ARC is the superior covenant to the New Covenant. The new covenant is a sub covenant of the ARC. Millions of people can and are in the ARC covenant, but only 144,000 are in the New Covenant.

You can't ransom a human life to have everlasting heavenly life with a perfect "human" body because a perfect human body does not possess everlasting heavenly life, the ransom price must equal the ransom. You need a perfect, everlasting angelic life to do that. Jesus, like the two offerings each day at the temple gave both. He gave an everlasting angelic soul to ransom his bride to be everlasting angels in heaven Philippians 2 and others to be "born again" Sons of God who may or may not be a part of the Bride.

He also gave the fleshly body of Immanuel which he inhabited by spirit at Immanuel's baptism by John ( Michael's spirit that left the angelic body in heaven that he sacrificed freely, was depicted as a dove coming down from heaven and entering into the body of Immanuel (Michael was in spirit form and he was indeed "Holy"). Immanuel's spirit being sinless did not have to die but was resurrected immediately into heaven into an angelic body, they did a bit of a switch). Jesus' angelic soul ransomed Adam's angelic soul that he lost. Jesus fleshly body that he took over from Immanuel ransomed Adam's fleshly soul that he lost.

So, no matter who you are, someone with an earthly hope for now (you have a ransom to put faith in). If you are a "born again" Son of God, you have a ransom to put your faith in. Now remember, Michael no doubt had confidence in his love for his Father to do this. If he had failed in his mission he would have lost everything. Once you give a life in sacrifice you can't take it back because it is no longer yours. When Michael "emptied himself of his heavenly angelic life" there was no turning back. If he failed, he was dead forever, not having a body to come back into. Jehovah would not have been able to break his own rules. Michael actually did sacrifice everything for us. Then when he came to earth as a man

"he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death,+ yes, death on a torture stake.* [in Immanuel's human body that was "prepared for him"] + 9 For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position+ [he is no longer angelic but is Divine] and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name,+ 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground+— 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord+ to the glory of God the Father." Philippians 2: 8-11

Michael needed such strong faith and love for his Father to risk such a thing and he risked absolutely everything. That is the gift that Michael/Jesus gave to us. Actually he gave us two gifts. Indefinitely lasting life on earth as a human if that is the salvation covenant that we are in or everlasting life in the heavens as an angel if that is the covenant that we are in. It's all about covenants and covenant Fathers (mediators). Abraham is the Covenant Father of all those with simple faith, Isaac is the covenant Father for all those with faith who also found and joined a true church, and Jacob is the covenant father of all those who are "born again" to be angels in heaven and Michael/Jesus is the Covenant Father and Husband of all those that are part of the Bride of Christ.

Jehovah doesn't explain it all to you in his word. You have to find it and figure it out for yourself if you really want to know. He wants us to do that. There is more, much much more. Abraham had two women who represented covenants, you already know that don't you? What about his other wife? Why would she not also represent a covenant. Remember, after the death of Sarah and driving away of Hagar. Yes, remember he married another woman, his former concubine Keturah. Yes, and they had a number of children. What was the meaning or covenant of Keturah if any? Jehovah's Witnesses know about this covenant, and they buried it in the dirt with the silver money that Jesus gave them in his parable. They know about this covenant but they are hiding it from everybody.

Frank

 

Hi John:

Jesus says in Revelation "I am the Alpha and I am the Omega". One of the meanings of that is that he is the mediator of the Alpha (the first letter in the Greek alphabet) and he is the mediator of the Omega, the last letter of the Greek alphabet. Well, in total there are 24 letters in the Greek alphabet and there are 24 covenants and sub covenants between God and Man. One for each letter of the Greek alphabet. Jesus/Michael is the mediator of the first covenant (the ARC made in Heaven to ransom Adam) and the last covenant (the New Covenant made with the first members of his Bride in 33 CE at the Passover celebration). He also happens to be part of some in the middle as well.

Since the ARC is the covenant that all the others hinge on Jesus is the master mediator. Without him giving up his everlasting angelic life none of us would have that as a covenant hope.

 

Sorry, Frank

I'm outta this one...you are saying things you must have read in un-inspired books. This is not from the Bible.

Case in point. Father is love...so is Jesus. They nailed the Law Covenant to the torture stake...eliminating the code of strict obedience to contracts. Why?

They showed us that the universal Law for all; angels, humans, everyone...is not strict obedience to laws. We will need acquiescence, love, mercy, and forgiveness, patience, long-suffering, and other attitudes that go way above and beyond 'Justice!' to make a universe that will be perfectly tuned..AND HAPPY.

I'm sorry, I cannot read all you spoke. It is not the Bible, but someone else's fabrication. You are not on stable ground. And we certainly have nothing to talk about while you espouse this 'sacred writing' you are presently infatuated with.

It certainly finds no home in my copies of the Bible.

Where are you digging this up?

 

Hi John:

One day you will get it, I promise!

Frank

 

Well, I believe you have a vivid imagination, and have read much more into the Bible that is explained. This theory is very complicated, for one thing.

Secondly, you are purporting the soul inside of our body concept it appears(?).

ARC ransom....Abrahamic, Isaac, and Jacobic Covenants???

Sorry, this is like a derailed locomotive train running off the track to me.

You think you are complicating the simple act of grace, charity, and loving mercy of God with stiffness..or inflexibity of 'contracts'...'codes'...laws for every action.

God and Christ I will repeat, have ultimately shown by the action of giving his very best, his only begotten Son 's life ---through a tortuous death--- to forgive sins, and buy us back from death....LEGAL DEATH.

This is God's way of saying, "I am sorry for you , and will forgive you...so now, (even Adam and Eve, yes , even these 'case-hardened' "sinners", according to WT) will be able to live again after the Resurrection) ...yes, this is the power and the Law of LOVE.

Legality takes second-place to love in God's universe. This is the whole point of the ransom; to teach love, and show people that we must develop this modus operandi too, to advance in eternal life with a universe full of beings, angelic, human, and who/whatever else comes down the road.

Look at James 2:13 "For the one that does not practice mercy will have his judgment without mercy. Mercy exults triumphantly over judgement. "

Not just exceeds judgment, but Triumphs over it. There is no need for legal covenants/contracts, for every action of mercy. It is the Law of the universe; Love is the Law of Creation, and always will be.

This is the issue Satan has stated as his premise to become the ruler of worlds; "The strongest/smartest are to rule...like me! There is no room for love, just might means right. Love is a lie, and is a weakness, a rot that weakens. There is no such thing as love! It is a lie."

He challenged God to attack Job to prove his point.

He challenged God in Eden, and his Adam and Eve, saying in effect, God is lying to you, and will not let you have knowledge, but is using you for his whimsical entertainment. The Tree...the tree has the power to make you gods, knowing everything God does...and being eternal, and powerful just like him...Take it! Eat...you'll see...! (I did, he inferred)

So, he slanders God night and day on this issue; Love is not the rule we should live by.

Another point we may overlook is the fact that even before God and Christ created the earth, the ransom, and Jesus coming down here to live as a Son of Man was planned, foreseen.

Don't you think they are smart enough to know before they put that poisonous tree in the garden...that somebody would eat its fruit..? And they did!... right out of the starting gate!

Eph. 1:8-14 tells it was all foreseen to be necessary for the Kingdom 's king, and co-rulers to be selected sometime in the future of mankind, through tests and trials we are going through.

God is smart enough to plan for failure. Not his...OURS.

 

But after taking my morning walk, I must agree, without covenants/law there is no definition of what is good, rightful, and beneficial for harmony among us all. So, Law is a must, and justice.

So...I concede. Covenants are important. And God is a just creator.

Now, as far as Jesus 'offering himself in sacrifice' as an 'angel' first...then a man second...I have given the matter a lot of thought also. But, that doesn't necessarily mean we had/have angelic bodies before ...or the one Jesus had was a ransom for anyone angelic/spiritual...or that it would be necessary to offer an 'angel sacrifice' for us kingdom heirs, before we could be made anew as 'angels'....which really, I think is not not we will be; but an all new race never-before seen...in Christ's image, not angelic.

But I do admit, I like the way you think...and the depth of your mind, imagination, and creativity...because that curiosity is what inspires discovery.

 

Hi John:

First of all i am not putting forward the idea of a "soul" inside of our body and am not talking about immortality of the soul. The Bible teaches us clearly that a "living soul" is a body that has the ability to be alive, whether human or angelic or Divine or New Creation body and the breathe of life, that spirit of God that animates that body and gives it personality based on human genetics for human bodies and angelic whatever for angelic "bodies". When you combine the "spirit" that God gives with a functioning body you have a "living soul". Unless you are God, you cannot live very long as a "spirit" without a "body". That's why demons, when they lose their angelic bodies are so quick to try to possess a sinful human body or an animal during times when that is possible. In Tartarus and later Gehenna when it was inaugurated, angels have no body of their own. Gehenna (and previously Tartarus) is a personal body less existence. This was demonstrated for us in the account of "Legion". Rather than "expire" everlastingly, the demons were OK with inhabiting the one body of that man. Some people were only "possessed" by two or three demons and some only one. That is how it will be in Gehenna. It will be like a borg like existence. Multiple "spirits" in one "server" for lack of a better mental picture. I think the worse the person you were the more you will have to share with and the longer will be your stay in Gehenna. The "body" is destroyed in Gehenna. That is the meaning of the "fires of Gehenna", fire destroys physical bodies, not spirits. Jehovah is the Great Teacher and some people will require 1,000 years in Gehenna to learn true repentence. Some much less. Not only is Jehovah the Great Teacher, he has unlimited patience and Love and a sense of Justice. So, no one gets out of Gehenna but the truly repentant. "Jehovah" is Salvation. That is the meaning of Jesus Name. If you are something you don't fail at it. JW's have Jehovah's success rate at about one tenth of 1 percent. He will have 100% because that is his desire, and whatever is his desire becomes reality.

This is fine and acceptable in the sight of our Savior, God,+ 4 whose will is that all [sorts of] people should be saved+ and come to an accurate knowledge of truth. 1 Timothy 2 "Sorts of" is an addition to satisfy Watchtower Theology which flies in the face of logic and scripture.

Jehovah* is not slow concerning his promise,+ as some people consider slowness, but he is patient (limitless patience) with you because he does not desire anyone to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance. 2 Peter 3

If you "are" salvation and you have limitless love and patience, you get what you desire and Jehovah desires that "ALL" will attain to repentance. Not under the individuals terms but under Jehovah's terms. Everyone will "eventually" learn and respect Jehovah's way.

No John, we don't actually have two bodies at the same time. When we are born again we have the "promise' of life as an angelic being or whatever type of life we will have when we leave this existence, whenever that might be. It's like we are awarded with a second home to live in. We can't live in both at the same time, only one at a time, but we can "own" both at the same time. When Adam sinned he lost the "promise" of that angelic body in the future "that very day" as Jehovah is always true to his will. He died from the consequences of sin 930 years later as a human.

Everyone that is "born again" whether they are a part of Jesus Bride or not has "the promise" of heavenly life when they die, or are "raptured" up to heaven without dyiing, like others were in the past.

If you sin against the Holy Spirit you lose that "promise". You cannot be forgiven "in this system (the one we are in right now) nor in the one to come (the 1,000 year Kingdom of God). There is no mention of forever concerning sin against the Holy Spirit. It is just what the Bible says. You cannot be forgiven now, nor in the system to come. After the 1,000 years will be a whole new "system" where those sins will be permitted to be forgiven, with true repentance that is.

That neither defy's either God's Love, his Salvation, his Power, his Mercy or his Justice.

I have to run a few necessary errands. I will answer your other responses later.

Frank

 

I will discuss with you why covenants are 'necessary' and not just something to do cause you don't have anything else to do later.

 

Hi John:

I am not talking about a law "code" when I say that Jehovah is bound by his own laws to do everything in a just and lawful fashion. The Law Code of Moses was a totally different kind of Covenant.

When Adam sinned he lost two things. That very day, just as Jehovah said he lost his "promise" of life everlasting that he got when he was "born again" at the age of 30, just like Jesus was. This is an indication that Non-Adamic man (those who are without Adamic Sin) like Jesus are born again at the age of 30. Jesus told us if we wanted to learn the mind of his Father all we had to do was observe him. He also said that he does nothing of his own initiative but only "what I see the Father doing".

We believe that Adam sinned at the age of 33.5 as well because Jesus was the last Adam, making Adam a kind of first Jesus. They were both directly created "Sons of God", so they will be similar or the same in many ways. Again, by observing Jesus we can learn a lot about Adam. That is why Jesus died at the age of 33.5 in the year 33 CE. His was a propitiatory sacrifice. Since Jesus was able to remain perfectly clean of sin for 3.5 years he matched the time or "covered" the error that Adam committed at the same age.

Let's get back to covenants. Why does Jehovah even need them when he has an abundance of Love and Mercy. The reason is that Jehovah cannot just say, no matter how much he may want to (he doesn't because he is perfect and is God) because he is bound by his own sense of perfect justice. If he said "on the day you do eat from it, dying you will die" he has to mean that and follow through. He did just that. Adam died as to his angelic life that he was promised when he was "born again" at the age of 30 (which was probably when the Bible described him going into a deep sleep). At that time mankind was finished, done, caputski. Unless of course Jehovah could come up with a way that would allow him to extend his Mercy "without" violating his other laws in regard to perfect "justice".

So, since Adam's sin essentially lost two lives, one angelic "promise" and one current human life, Jehovah needed both an angel and a human who was "perfect" and unblemished in Sin to give their life (or in this case lives) as a ransom(s) to buy back what Adam had lost. Soul for Soul, Life for Life.

This is where Jesus comes in. He, by his willingness to perform both of these ransoms could "buy back" not only the loss of Adam's human life, but also the "promise" of life everlasting in heaven when his life on earth was completed. The hitch is once you give up the life as the price of the ransom you can no longer consider that life yours. So, when Michael stepped forward and said as is recorded in Isaiah, "here I am send me" he was saying I have faith enough in my Father Jehovah to give my life knowing that he can raise me up after doing so, and he knew he had to show that faith two times, once as an everlasting angel (of which Michael was the only one at the time who had an everlasting spirit) and once as a perfect human during his time on earth. So, he would have to "empty himself" of his angelic soul in the heavens and have his "spirit of life" transferred to his life as a human on earth as is brought out in Philippians 2. Then, once he "found himself in fashion as a man" ,"he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death,+ yes, death on a torture stake"

So, he had to lay down his life twice, once as an angel and once as a human and he had to place his total faith in his heavenly Father that he could not only take his life and transfer it to the body "prepared for him" on earth, but also that after laying down both lives that his heavenly Father could raise him up from the dead without having to lanquish in Sheol. What happened?

Also, in Philippians 2 the Bible informs us "For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position+ and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name,+ 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground+— 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord+ to the glory of God the Father."

Now, Jehovah could take these two perfect lives and he could use them in order to cover the life of an "earthly mediator", he could view someone like Abraham who was an imperfect man and a sinner as one who was "righteous" based on the perfect human life that was given in ransom. So, Abraham became the covenant Father of all those that show "Faith" in God based on the perfect human life that Jesus gave. And Jacob could become the covenant Father of all those who not only have the "Faith" of Abraham but who are "born again" as adopted "Sons of God" as everlasting spirit beings based on the perfect everlasting spirit that Michael gave up in the heavens "before" he came down to the earth.

There is so much more to this ransom arrangement but that is enough to chew for now. Remember, there has been 6000 years of human history and three different systems that had to be accounted for by "ransoms" and human "mediators". There was the pre-flood system from Adam to Noah, there was the Peri-Flood System from Noah to just before Abraham and there is the system since the time of Abraham to account for. Our heavenly Father had this all accounted for the instant that Adam sinned (because he knew he would, he was too young and too naive to resist Satan's wiles) He had this entire salvation plan with ransom sacrifices (Michael and Jesus are not alone) and human mediators and blessing mediators. The whole shebang. And he did so knowing that mankind in general would not have the desire enough to fully learn his plan. He knew that for the vast majority of mankind it would require much of the 1,000 year reign of Christ for them to fully appreciate the height and breadth and length that God would go to save his children. And he did it anyway because that is who our Father is and that is who his Son is. They are both LOVE. They don't "have" LOVE, they are "LOVE".

We can learn more about covenants and justice another day. Now Michael/Jesus was the cover on the Ark of the Covenant because he was the propitiatory cover for mankinds sins. But he was not alone. There were two more "cherubs", one on either side of Michael/Jesus on that ark. Cherubs, which Michael was are the ones who are in a position to act as "ransoms" and to enact Jehovah's whole salvation plan for "all" of mankind, more than one perfect ransom was needed. Even more than two. These two cherubs, one being on either side of Michael/Jesus play a pivital role and fill out the entire salvation plan with Michael/Jesus playing the key and starring role.

Frank

 

I have read your theory of then two ransoms of Michael/Jesus.

I am not able to reason that way, or find any scriptural basis for this; that there is a heavenly life awaiting each man /woman on earth.

2. That Jesus transfer of spirit to human was a 'sacrifice' for anything, as scriptures never indicate that at all.

You are promulgating this as 'Bible Truth'. That can be dangerous....to you, and others whom you are teaching.

Also, the many 'covenants' you are claiming to exist; these find no support from scripture either, and really do confuse the reader.

Sorry, I must disagree with your assumptions. To me they are not based upon God's word. Imagination must be conjoined with facts, to even become a workable theory. Then scriptural support must be strong, before anything like that above could be taught as even possible.

 

The heavenly hope is for all Christian believers to aspire towards.

"The Lord will rescue me from every evil attack and will bring me safely to his heavenly kingdom." 2 Tim 4:18 NIV

"But the holy people of the Most High will receive the Kingdom and will possess it forever-yes forever and ever." Dan.7:17 NIV

"For if you do these things, you will never stumble, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." 2 Pet. 1:10 NIV

"Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful..." Heb. 12:28 NIV

"Instead, they were longing for a better country- a heavenly one." Heb. 11:16 NIV

"It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of theb true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence." Heb. 9:23,24 NIV

One more...and I am just looking randomly through the New Testament at the many, many references to the kingdom being a heavenly city, and life....in fact the Christian Bible is packed full of references for Christians receiving new spiritual bodies and living in heaven with Christ, seeing angels, and God face-to-face.

"For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God....Instead , they were longing for a better country- a heavenly one." Heb. 11 :10, 16 NIV

Now, one man asked for proof the Bible ever says Christians and believers like Abraham ever longed for heavenly life, or the heavenly kingdom....inferring this is not their hope.

We must read the scriptures, and allow the holy spirit to come into our hearts through that effort. Then He will be our teacher..and the word;

"Spirit and Truth."

Theories, and speculations, which surely all of us entertain due to being like God, wondering and having interest in the future...must await the reality to see how it ALL pans out in the end.

But if we desire to teach, or proclaim our faith that,..." this is what the Bible says, or that."..we should be very careful to not go beyond what is written. Gal. 1:9

 

Frank, If you will, tell me if you are picking up some of these ideas you wrote above from 'other scrolls', other people who have written doctrines like this, or is it all your theory?

 

I see you are referring to 'God's plan'...'God's plan of salvation'...and "more will be discussed once you have digested this."...etc.

Clearly you are plugged into a doctrinal 'plan' many years in the development, and totally foreign to Witness doctrine. It is also foreign to me. Is this Mormonism? 7th Day Adventist?

It is surely a religion of some kind.

 

Obviously, by your account and advice, the wrong one! Thanks John.

 

Hi John: Adam clearly died two ways John. He died when he reached the age of 930 (physical death), but he also died in some other way because Jehovah said that he would die on the very "day" that he partook of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and bad. I don't think Jehovah meant some sort of "pretend" death either. Also, why prefigure Jesus ransom sacrifices with two sacrifices every day for thousands of years if there was only going to be "one" death?

 

One sacrifice was for the Israelites, the other was for the High Priest himself ; just as stated in the Law.

You asked about the heavenly hope, and wanted proof from the scriptures, stating there wasn't one place this was stated ; didn't you? I thought I replied with 3 scriptures initially...and a clear 10 or so altogether. You never replied to that...why?