Hi Utuna, What's your point? That we shall not all die, but we the living shall be changed to spiritualbeings when the last trumpet sounds?
What being anointed has meant for me. Hello all brothers and sisters in the Lord; 'sons of the kingdom'...and all others. Peace and hope and joy be yours, and an unquenchable thirst to learn more and more as the day gets near. My name is John S. You may have read my posts many times on JWStruggle years ago, or on the christian.forumatic.com site Okinawa formed at my request over two years ago;about the same time as this post was fired up. If so, you may have a strong opinion about my thinking, and essays, which number many hundreds over the years. I was a faithful JW for 36 years, when I was chosen for heavenly destiny. At first, I denied the opportunity presented to me in a day-vision out back behind my house as I was walking my dogs. I , too, refused Christ's offer when he said, "We want you to come up here." I was blown away, and I said, "Not me, Lord...I am a sinner!"....and it is true, like others said here, I have sinned much in my lifetime..even since being baptized at 16, and am 60 now. But Jesus was getting to that; He replied to me with a tone of indignation (and I want you to know...I never heard the speech with my ears...but only in my mind) as I felt the words' meanings along with a hearing....anyway, Christ said, "It's not about that!" In other words, one does not receive the upward call because of EARNING anything....but we are all deserving of death, of course. But, I had tried hard all my life to be as good as I could, and worked hard for Jehovah and the Org. functions all along...whole souled, really. I just 'stumped my toe' so many times.... Well, as soon as Christ (in the vision I saw him sitting on a simple throne chair, and beside him Father Jah was a presence of pure energy, shimmering, and no voice ever came from him; most likely this was his spirit; not he himself.) spoke those words, I was treated with the greatest experience of my life. I felt the holy spirit flow through me like a penetrating wind , and in this warm, and love-filled wind, feelings from Jah and Christ were presented to my deepest perception and heart; "We love you John, and appreciate all you have done, and we do not look at ANY of your sins , as we forgive ALL of them." The love that was in that spirit surpassed any human love I have known. It was total, all-forgiving, and 100% hopeful I would make out successfully in the life that is to come, serving in the heavens with Christ. This stunning experience I will carry with me till I die. I fully KNOW....no one can judge whether you are anointed...but YOU KNOW. It cannot be fully explained with speech, but must be experienced. Like Jesus said, it is like the wind, you do not know where it comes from or where it is going. No one can judge another person in this matter, especially when you have NOT been anointed. John 3:1-5 After I gathered my wits, as the spirit passed through...I said "YES!...let's do this thing!" I was so encouraged! Then the vision was over; maybe 5 minutes...or one or two... Well, that will be all for now. I would like to tell more another time. I believe anointing takes different tacks, paths, experiences for each one. Peter's words about Joel's vision of the last days are true to me, "your sons and your daughters will prophesy and your young men will see visions and your old men will dream dreams." Acts 2:17-21 I have had sveral wonderful dreams and a few day-vision/perceptions since that time 8 years ago. But another time. I will conclude with this; JW's did not believe a word of what I had experienced. I was constantly mocked, even hated because I was anointed ...for two and a half years as a Witness. Of course I was very vocal about new things the spirit began to teach me from the word, not WT. This led to my disassociating myself, and eventually my wife(of 32 years) and Witness family left me to my devices. I am re-married now, and post many threads on christian.forumatic.com. I also enjoy reading exciting experiences like the ones posted here. This is a spirit-filled oasis , just as the site I post on. Many come here for water of truth, and to work out their new beliefs. May Jehovah's spirit continue to work here ....or rather...may he continue to work in YOUR heart...and then you post your thoughts here. (John 3:1-6) Blessings on all; the kingdom sons are still being chosen; right up till the end...and we all are in a miracle-time now...when the Christian anointed are being selected, and the prophesies of Revelation concerning them and their witnessing begin in earnest. Keep witnessing here, and come read and post on our site if you are inclined. I saw some have visited from here. Do not be afraid to say hello, as we are servants of Jehovah there too, and need encouragement as you do.
Hello Johe S, Thanks for your invitation. I will right away come to read your posts. It's always interesting for me to hear other anointed's understanding as we are growing in knowledge of God's word.
I signed up there some many months ago , but haven't had the spare time for another site ... being not a teacher but a student one can only ingest so much ...even if I have a tendency to glut myself on reading ..I did mosey some over there a few months back at Joe's mention . I find it quite worthy that regardless of the chains , shackles and every other attempt to "bottleneck" the truth that the spirit has no restrictions in piercing through any "fortification" or stronghold to keep it checked . In this it is easy to glorify God and Christ for nothing is able to withstand the permeation of the truth when one is ready to receive it ...
Are those with a heavenly hope “anointed†or “elected/chosen†and, is there a difference? “Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed [chrio] us is God, who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.†(2 Co 1:21-22 NKJV) The only Greek scripture written that uses this word [chrio], which means to anoint, referring to the disciples themselves. All of the other Greek scriptures use [eklektos /eklegomai ], meaning to choose/chose/chosen, when referring to the disciples or apostles. According to Strong’s: 1. to pick out, choose, to pick or choose out for one's self.a. choosing one out of many, i.e. Jesus choosing his disciples. b. choosing one for an office. c. of God choosing whom he judged fit to receive his favours and separated from the rest of mankind to be peculiarly his own and to be attended continually by his gracious oversight. 1. i.e. the Israelites. d. of God the Father choosing Christians, as those whom he set apart from the irreligious multitude as dear unto himself, and whom he has rendered, through faith in Christ, citizens in the Messianic kingdom: (James 2). 2. so that the ground of the choice lies in Christ and his merits only. “When morning came, he called his disciples to him and chose [eklegomai] twelve of them, whom he also designated apostles:†(Lu 6:13 NIV) “You did not choose [eklegomai] me, but I chose [eklegomai] you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.†(Joh 15:16 NIV) Comments anyone?
No I don't , I make no claims , nor would they be relevant , my assignment is my own as will be my standing before our Master ...I don't claim a "heavenly hope" per se ..only that my citizenship is held in the heavens , and when the temple is completed I "hope" to remain within it ...my conjectures of seeing through the glass darkly can range from mankinds dreams of peace whereever one finds ones self to beautifully glorified life in the creation .. where ever that may come to be ...from flights of fancy to good old hard work in the continuance and propagation of Life in all it's paths ...I rejoice in that many who have walked with the chains of slavery to a manmade religion have been made "free" to truly discover their own childhood in true learning the paths of Life.Tearing away the edifices of encumbrance of manmade doctrines and dogma to a true self examination in the light of the teaching of the Christ ....but I always love your input T ...it's why I"m not a teacher ...
John 3:8 "The wind blows where it wants to, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from and where it is going. So it is with everyone who has been born from the spirit.â€
A question, which I intend in no way as a slight: Do you think that Jesus intended for us to 'get a feeling' and then think "I'm anointed"? This always struck me as odd. It seems to me (which could be completely wrong) that we are all Christians, and 'many are called, few are chosen'. So it's not us who self-assigns this possible 'anointing', but Jesus / Jehovah. The downside of the JW notion of the anointed seems to create a two-tiered system leading to a messiah-like-complex in some (hello GB). Which makes me question the whole thing. So, what scriptures can be cited to clarify this? Aren't we as Christians all anointed with the spirit? What separates a JW-anointed from a JW-not-anointed other than a 'feeling'? I don't know ... it just seems like this particular doctrine creates a new priest class and it's accompanying claim to authority based on that doctrine, and leads to wonky thinking. Of course, that priest class is being created, but behind the scenes and as far as I know, nobody has been chosen other than (most likely) those 33 CE members and the original 12. Everything else is smoke and mirrors (IMO) until Jesus returns.
You know SingleCell, this subject isn't really my strong point as others in here are more qualified to speak and quote on Jehovah's spirit as it pertains to anointing, and yes irony is not lost on me, but as you know my talents lay elsewhere in scripture. So with that said, I agree with what you wrote in a way. Nothing is final until Jesus is enthroned, and to be honest I think my experience was the calling (as you pointed out) and that the choosing falls on the moment we are either raised or changed in the time if the end. You point out that many are called and few chosen, and I don't believe we are chosen until Jesus is enthroned and holy spirit poured out in the time of the end, because any one of us called can fall and would not be chosen. So yes, in that way I agree with you. As to the feeling you mention as it pertains to the calling I'm not sure I can answer other then the scripture I quoted above from Jesus at John 3:8. You won't be able to see that wind of spirit within anyone called, anymore then you could see the physical wind itself. So I wouldn't worry about it too much, all things will be uncovered when the end comes, both those who claim and those who have.
It's not just a feeling. It's a life-changing experience, like a new birth. You're not anymore the man/woman you were before. It's not either just a feeling in the sense that when you are anointed, it shows. It DOES show ! Ok, maybe not in the local congregations because the R&F JWs are so blind that they'd have Jesus in front of them, they'd scorn and shun him like the Jewish religious leaders and the Jews as a whole did 2 000 years ago. When the Holy Spirit is at work in you, it shows : "...the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control. Against such things there is no law." - Gal. 5:22-23 That's why I say (and have always said) that anyone who says that the quest for truth is a mere quest for knowledge, all the more so if the persons in question are anointed, is seriously mistaken and has understood nothing at all to what the heavenly calling is all about. Furthermore, it's not because you shoot biblical verses like an MG42 that you necessarily have understood what there is to understand (Luke 12:47-48). Did Jesus say that his brothers should be bookworms before anything ? Love and knowledge are two sides of the same coin. Love is the fulfillment of knowledge. No love, no knowledge. "All the same, wisdom is proved righteous by its works.â€" - Mat. 11:19 "“Be on the watch for the false prophets who come to you in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? Likewise, every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit. A good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, nor can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. Every tree not producing fine fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Really, then, by their fruits you will recognize those men." - Mat. 7:15-20
Thanks Joshua and Utuna! I read 'many called' as ALL Christians. And the 'few chosen' are the sealed sons of the kingdom. So IMO all Christians are 'in the running' for being chosen, it's not us who determine a two-class system by our internal 'feeling' of a different 'hope'. We all have the 'heavenly hope', and it is Christ and Jehovah who choose and seal at the appropriate times. The alternative is the flawed (IMO) notion that we self-anoint and then 'wait and see if we are chosen', which leads to religious nonsense, Popes, Governing Bodies and the like.
Yes, I agree with you. I had explained it this way one or two years ago : the GC have two hopes because they can be anointed any time or never. The anointed ones have one hope only. What remains to be seen is what will become of them if they ever fail to "pass the test"... not the best fate to be dreamed of, for sure (Luke 12:46)
I have to disagree with you here, In no way did I have a heavenly hope. I never wanted to go to heaven, and in fact would rather be on earth if it weren't for my desire to do Jehovah's will over my own. I mourned the loss of my earthly hope, and when I say mourn, I mean it... In my experience it was me giving up what I had most wanted my whole life in order to do Jehovah's will, that's why I fought it, I didn't want it at all, but I had to make a choice whether I was thinking of my own desires or those of Jehovah's. I might also add that even though I haven't studied this subject as much as others, and that I believe the calling was the pouring out of the spirit starting with the 120 in the upper room and chosen in the time of the end, I will say that the experience was something that goes beyond just a feeling. It was an interaction, no more different then an interaction you have with another person in front of you. What I mean is, just as you have no doubt that the person in front of you is interacting with you, at that moment there is no doubt the source of the interaction, and what was going on. I agree with you that this opens itself up to anyone claiming the calling, and I can't speak to that end. For like I said in my last post, the only thing we can do is wait upon Jehovah and the time of the end for all these things to be uncovered. Those with the calling and those who claim will all be sorted out. To be honest I don't see any of this as a privilege at all, it's a responsibility. It's like my secular job, I use to be on the bottom and had no responsibilities, but I now have many employees under me and great responsibility, and I long for the old days. We use the word "hope", and I don't think that's the proper word, because after the experience it isn't hope for heaven that is the driving force, its still just the hope to survive with our names in the book of life, period. It's just more so understanding where that future would be is somehow implanted (and I know that sounds weird) but after all that's what the whole experience was about, I had to give up what I most wanted in order to except going to heaven instead. I except my responsibility because I want to do Jehovah's will over my own.
Aren't you just describing the Christian calling though Joshua? Not to suggest that there isn't a little flock, there certainly is, but as far as I can tell we can't self-apply. All Christians are the called, and a few are chosen by Jesus and Jehovah to makeup the 144,000. From your framework, it works the opposite way, with three tiers: There are believers, some of whom appoint themselves to the little flock based on knowledge / feeling / etc, and then wait and see if they are chosen to inherit the blessing ... Christian -> Called -> Chosen IMO, it's Christian -> Chosen I'm open to scriptures that demonstrate this self-selecting-application-to-membership three tier system though! Maybe I'm missing something.
Oh idk, I could be wrong... I had always thought it only pertained to the 144k, but to be honest I hadn't really studied it. But I will say that just at face value it would seem the called being the GC doesn't sound right, the reason being that makes the 144k chosen, that's almost saying that they are the winners of a lottery over the called/GC. I see what your saying now, and maybe I need to look into it a little further, because I assumed the calling was the spirit poured out to the 120 in the upper room and the chosen in the time of the end. We must also keep in mind that chosen sounds like there is no changing it, where some anointed no doubt fall away. The idea that the GC are called, but the anointed are chosen (in my mind) leaves out the idea that they could fall. Also given that most of scripture is written to the anointed (look at 1Cor 15:51 and those changed in a blink of an eye as an example), then it would be the simplest idea that both the called and chosen are referring to the anointed. I will however reserve further understanding until I study more what the book actually says on the subject, for as I mentioned I have not done that extensively.
I find this whole doctrine of the 'anointed' makes the Christian system nonsense. "which scriptures apply to me" "which apply to the anointed" yada yada [though it's great for excusing myself from duties] Personally, I read the 'new creation' as all Christians who are baptized with the spirit and 'washing with the word'. In fact, I find no scripture to suggest otherwise. Out of all baptized with the spirit and the word (Christians) some will be selected by Jesus and Jehovah as co-rulers in heaven, over the earth, for 1000 years. From 33 CE -> Present there will be people chosen from those who were called and responded to the calling. (by becoming Christians) That is my understanding at least.
"Look! I tell you a sacred secret: We will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed" Who is Paul talking to here? 1 Corinthians was written to the congregation in Corinth. Not a sub-group. The chapter opens like this: "Now I remind you, brothers, of the good news that I declared to you, which you also accepted (became a Christian), and for which you have taken your stand. (demonstrated works of faith)" Jesus when speaking to Nicodemus never referenced a sub-group when he said that we must be born again. IDK either But I'm pretty sure the JW notion of a pre-return-of-Christ-sub-group called the anointed is wrong. At some point Jesus will reveal who was chosen out of the Christian covenant. (Rev 7)
Hi SingleCell You asked who was Paul talking to? The Corinthian congregation were anointed Christians. 1 Cor 1: 1-2 - Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by God’s will, and Sos′the·nes our brother, to the congregation of God that is in Corinth, to you who have been sanctified in union with Christ Jesus, called to be holy ones, together with all those everywhere who are calling on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours: 1 Cor 3: 16,17 - Do you not know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that the spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him; for the temple of God is holy, and you are that temple Paul warns that if these holy ones, "the temple of God" are destroyed, God will destroy the killers. It is the holy ones (the Two Witnesses) that the Beast 666 targets and kills in Rev chapter 11. God then carries out His will by destroying that government which had destroyed His temple. Londoner
I think you are making a category error by separating your bold from the rest of the sentence: (new bolding) to the congregation of God that is in Corinth, to you who have been sanctified in union with Christ Jesus, called to be holy ones, ----- Paul isn't saying "to the congregation" and also the sub-group among you. He is saying that the entire congregation was sanctified in union with Christ, CALLED to be holy ones. Interesting how we all see different formulas for sentence structure though Using your interpretation is self-refuting I believe, because otherwise you are saying that only that sub-group is sanctified in union with Jesus. Which isn't true - ALL Christians are sanctified in union with the Christ, presuming they aren't Christian in name-only.