Yo soy estupido

 

Looks like I made a category error LOL. Sorry bro.

I read your statement as saying that Corinth itself was an anointed congregation limited to Corinth. (thanks for not calling me singlebraincell though)

But we're in agreement: All Christians are called, few are chosen.

 

That is precisely how I read these ideas scattered throughout the scriptures.

 

So what are you saying, that all those in Corinth weren't part the bride class? From what I've always understood every Christian in the early church was of that class. If that's the case you are saying some among the early church would be resurrected on earth?

 

So if your correcting and say that you understand that all those in the congregation at Corinth was of the bride class then I think the scripture at 1Cor seems to say that these ones are called, not chosen, but you say the chosen are the bride class, but the scripture clearly says "called".

"Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by God’s will, and Sos′the·nes our brother, to the congregation of God that is in Corinth, to you who have been sanctified in union with Christ Jesus, called to be holy ones, together with all those everywhere who are calling on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours"

1 Cor 3: 16,17

 

Yes, but you would think once Jehovah chooses them, they are chosen in a final way. Chosen meaning that they will be ruling with Christ. But we know some will fall while still living after first being part of the bride class. This would say that Jehovah would have made a mistake wouldn't it, if they are chosen, and then failed? However called first, then chosen in the end makes more sense.

As for the talk about the theme throughout scripture, the Bible was written to the bride class. When it speaks of those who are raised and changed what does it say, it says "we".

1Cor15:52 "in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we will be changed."

To say that the called are anything other then the "we" in 1Cor 15:52 is to go beyond what is written as a theme in the Bible as a whole. Look at the subject of MTh 22:11-14, it's of a wedding.

“When the king came in to inspect the guests, he caught sight of a man not wearing a marriage garment. So he said to him, ‘Fellow, how did you get in here without a marriage garment?’ He was speechless. Then the king said to his servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and throw him into the darkness outside. There is where his weeping and the gnashing of his teeth will be.’ “For there are many invited, but few chosen.â€￾

This appears to be a metaphor for the marriage feast of the bride class. So the invited/called are those invited to this marriage.

 

No adjustment Just clearing up my wrong reading of Londoner's post.

Those in Corinth were called, not chosen - just like all true Christians.

Other than the Apostles, we can't say who is chosen and who is not.

In Romans 10 Paul tells us not to even speculate.

“Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’â€￾

(though this is primarily talking about salvation from death)

 

Okay, just to help me understand where your coming from, you believe the bride class are the chosen, you also believe all those at Corinth were of the bride class, but you believe the called are all Christians. Are you saying the called are all those staying on earth and ruling with Christ?

Then how could there have been any called who will live on earth spoken too in Corinth, wouldn't he have been talking only to those of the bride class when he said called? There wouldn't have been anyone in Corinth of the GC.

 

No, that would be nonsense

Let's drop the 'bride class' for a second. We can get into those scriptures tomorrow, since they are prophetic, it's good to put it into context.

It's pretty simple, it seems to me:

Those in Corinth were called and responded by becoming Christians. (1 Cor 15)

Just like us Christians today, by responding to the calling we are holy ones in union with Christ.

Not by our righteousness, but by baptizing in the spirit and washing in the word and through the sacrifice of Christ.

At some point in the future, Jesus and Jehovah will choose from this 'hopper' of Christians over the ages to be kings and priests.

These are the 144,000.

During the tribulation, there will be a final 7000 who are chosen, because of their witness and giving their lives for the Gospel of truth and life.

(and whatever other criteria Jehovah uses to determine their chosen-ness)

Ultimately, regardless of the nuances here, I reject the notion that some Christians 'get a feeling' and determine they are called.

We are all called.

Most are not chosen. [I scoff at the idea of being chosen honestly, because I am navel lint]

But some don't feel that way, like you, brother - and that is between you and our master.

 

So then you believe no one has been picked for heavenly life yet, even in the first century?

 

The Apostles, absolutely. Perhaps those at Pentecost.

(but I would need scriptural support for Pentecost)

Beyond that it's not my call - are there more? Of course!

William Tyndale and people like him strike me as good candidates.

(and there I go violating what I previously stated, LOL)

But that is really a side issue: my main 'argument' is that the three tiered system is an incorrect understanding.

[please correct me with scripture though, I could be wrong]

 

Then with that thinking anyone who claims that, have decieved themselves?

That means you believe all those since John the Baptist strive for heaven as the goal means all men. (Mth 11:12)

With your understanding those who say they are picked already to go to heaven have deceived themselves right along with those who have the hope to live on earth? What if they never had a hope for heaven? Doesn't that throw a wrench in that idea?

You have millions with an early hope in JW's, and thousands who claim a heavenly future, are they both deceived?

 

No definitely not. Nor is it my place to judge.

Certainly some today who feel they have a heavenly hope to join Christ as a king and priest will become such.

But I'm skeptical, because as a mechanic of the mind, this doctrine plays right into the hands of man's weakness.

The Governing Body are the prime example.

Millions of JW's believe Jesus returned in 1914, and are deceived; yet I still consider them to compose the true faith Jesus established.

I'm just speaking abstractly bro, I recognize you feel called to be in this group and I would never insult you to suggest otherwise.

So in abstraction, I'm don't feel the three-tiered system is correct, primarily because it chops the NT up and makes it nonsensical in too many areas.

 

I completely agree John.

So there are two questions we can hash out to clarify this:

1) is the 144k a literal number?

2) are the 'meek who inherit the earth' Christians or something else?

The WT doctrine is not completely baseless, the error, I believe, is in the notion that there are three classes.

(Christians, called, chosen)

 

SingleCell, in no way am I offended for an understanding of scripture. Remove the idea of my claim at the moment, we can discuss the issue on the merits without it.

 

Great

I just want you to know, that of the people who I know which feel this way, I actually trust you!

(and your intentions in feeling that calling)

But the reality of the doctrine, as you point out, is a matter of merits and the scriptures.

So maybe we should drop the conceptual thinking and try to cite scriptures for and against the doctrine.