These scriptures should speak for themselves; If these truths are not clear enough, I can't improve the argument. Sorry , I do not wish to debate, per se. This is a tender subject, I know, from years of experience; like I said, the truth divided my life and household. I expected it; not requesting sympathy at all. It is war, being Christ's follower. But can be handled with finesse and skill....if we are mature enough to deal with such topics, but only for a short time, if differences are too much. I like all the comments on this site. I believe all here are serious diggers of truth. But a warning; you may find what you are looking for is quite different than you believed or expected; and that goes for me , too, of course. Thanks for engaging my essay, Joshua.
Hi John S.: If all who are called are to go to heaven to be a part of the Bride of Christ, and will rule as kings and priests with Jehovah God and Christ, who are they to be Kings and Priests for? frank
At the same time, though, our curiosity may find better, more logical, and satisfying answers, which serve to build a stronger faith, and closeness to God. This has been my experience. And even though I lost much, I remarried to a woman who searches the scriptures diligently, daily, and we are happy that we both followed our conscience and the leading of the spirit to where we are. We hope many other of our religion will do as we did. Seeing things going on in the organization we could no longer justify, we opted out. Now, years later we see many pods forming of persons like yourselves; dedicated to serious searching for spirit and truth. We choose these persons and respect them greatly...who are not ashamed to speak out for the Lord, and his teaching over any man-made doctrines. Christ was full of his Father's spirit; which should be our aim, of course. (John 17) In time, this reformation from WT will go into overdrive, I believe...if I am right.I don't expect the men at the top will 'step down'. They seldom do. Or revamp all the erroneous teachings as litigation would be too great and bankrupt the coffers. These are the thoughts keeping these religious rulers up at night. John 11:28
Kings and Priests Hello Frank... I love your fresh point of views. You have imagination as well as deep thought as you see possibilities, and make hypotheses then advance toward solving. For instance, you do see Christ's spirit is important to receive also, as he states clearly. (Rom. 8:9) After all, a husband must dwell with his wife 'according to knowledge'...as we must do here in our devotion to Jehovah together; knowing the mind-set of one another. Yes...of course, the New Earth...restored mankind into eternity is the purpose of the New Heavenly Jerusalem; but also a barrier of unstoppable, untiring protection for the human race from all creatures in heaven and elsewhere who may try to invade and conquer the human race (our sad plight at this time, being infested with demons and evil men)...forever...which someone down the road may wish: Satan is not the only rebel in the universe, of course. He has gained many followers in the heavens and here. I call the kingdom a shield for mankind, as well as benefactors , loving, sympathetic, and totally interested in the future welfare of their human brothers. Just as Christ, who became a man...and now is totally sympathetic.
Hi John S: I'm not sure you really answered my question. What exactly will the kingdom be like? Who will populate the earth if all the faithful are in heaven as a part of the bride and the sinners in Gehenna? Oh, by the way what is your understanding of what Gehenna is? frank
John, I agree that the expression: "To be in union" has not the same power as "l am one with you". That's disappointing while reading that part of the NWT. Ten years ago I started to read the Bible 10 pages a day. And because I was in a Russian speaking group, we had not the NWT yet. So I read an old Russian translation that we used in the congregation. And then I felt the difference in power of these words. That we should be one, we the disciples of Jesus, together with Jesus and the Father. Otherwise I am quite happy with the NWT, especially the latest version except for a few scriptures like these. On an other forum where I posted a few years ago, paradisecafe, there was one brother that had done his own translation, which he thought to be better than the NWT. But honestly I liked more the NWT . Of course it is sad that the WT org is hindering people to reach for the heavenly kingdom. Paradoxically the well quoted scripture Matthew 6: 33 is just about it. "Keep on then first seeking the kingdom". But of course the places in heaven are limited to 144000, and if it would have been easy to get to know the truth, that number had been fulfilled long time ago before us. In addition Revelation says that God will gather to his heavenly kingdom persons from every tribe, tongue, nation and people. (Revelation 5:9,10) So think if the jews in the first century had believed, and if the Pharisees and the scribes had believed Jesus and instead of hindering helped jews to believe, then the number 144000 would long ago be full. So in that way there is a purpose that it is not easy to believe Jesus. Most christians rather believe what they are told by their leaders instead of just believing Jesus right from the pages of the Bible.
Yes, Frank, Utuna, and Joshua...as far as the Great Crowd...those who are not Christ's brothers and who refuse the mark of the beast...they will be the foundation over which Kings and Priests will minister. And we KNOW the expression 'kings' here means lowly of mind and self-sacrificing just as their Lord . Not lording over anyone. Also, at the end of the 1000 years, after Satan and his angels are destroyed, the General Resurrection of all the dead will occur. All will stand before Christ as he considers their value and chances to receive a 'resurrection to life'...or be condemned to the lake of fire themselves...BUT ...ALL will have their say before the great Judge...and no one will say his granny or son or daughter did not receive opportunity to plead their cause. (John 5:28,29 So, Frank...billions of people will be resurrected, most likely....to opportunity to enter the holy city to receive the fruit of the Trees of Life. (symbolic, surely....but who knows.?) And yes, Jan....I cannot say for certain the 144,000 is literal...but I believe that number would have been filled in the 1st century alone, as by the mid 4th...Christianity had become the Roman state religion it was so widespread and persuasive...especially during the first century with gifted anointed using miraculous gifts to plow the hard ground. Sure...many to most Christians through 20 centuries were not truly anointed; I am not a fundamentalist naive' narrow-minded thinker. But also, since I , like Utuna, did examine many religious faiths, I did see many people who seemed like excellent candidates for the assignment.... I think very few persons at least here in the Bible Belt put much stock in the trinity doctrine; calling God, 'Father God'....and his Son as their Lord. And also many are needed to be corrected about scriptural things, just as I was after being a JW 35 years. The scriptures, though were so clear to me on this spirit anointing part. I think once a person sees it is not a closed issue....he /she can deliberate and talk with the Father and just ask him what his will is for him/her. He will let you know...surely. My wife is not aspiring for heavenly life...nor is everyone posting on these sights. I , like one bro or sis said....wanted to convert everyone to the heavens....because the way I read it it is still wide open...and if I was being considered...then anyone could be in line, because I know my shortcomings too well (and so do others). Look at Paul; murderer, hard to get along with for some; dogmatic, true. But...he couldn't just hang his head and give up; letting the past swallow him up with guilt; NO! He knew Jesus and God had forgiven him all; declared righteous because he believed Jesus was the Lamb of God, and believed in true 100% forgiveness; something humans have a hard time swallowing...especially toward ourselves. But it's true. All...including 'the Great Crowders', and all resurrected, and all who believe and act on the knowledge are declared righteous. They should ALL partake at Memorial. Do any agree with this? Yes, Jan...I still favor the NWT...I love hearing God's name, and Jesus praising his Father in clear phrases of love. Philps NT is also a favorite; NIV too. I just don't trust Franz (almost certainly the sole 'translator of NWT) anymore...and I saw him give a talk at a huge International Assembly way back in the 1970 summer, I believe ...(Dodger Stadium?) He screamed at the audience as if he had a demon, "There are NO MORE people beings anointed! Just replacements." People looked around as if to say, "Has he flipped his lid? Hollering like that?" After being anointed in the Witness congregation....the hierarchy of elders and servants watch you like a hawk for apostate leanings/teachings. And no one comes up to you to share joy. Everyone thinks you're crazy. I can't imagine how Father and Son feel about that...or what they will do to those mis-treating their chosen ones.(Matt. 25:31-46) You who now perceive the spirit in you beckoning for heavenly life; wanting to see your Father face-to-face; never be ashamed to talk about your hope. It will encourage all true Christians to know your thoughts. They will see you're not phony. They will see the closeness, humility. and strength of your faith....even more as the end comes...especially if it winds up in the next decade or two. But who knows; much has to be fulfilled yet. Frank; Gehenna? Lake of Fire? 2nd death; no resurrection. The end. What do you think? There are many here who know much about languages of the scriptures and details. Thank you for your hours of interesting research. Altogether the body of Christ builds each other up by this deep pool of accurate knowledge. Eph. 1:17,18
Hi John: PM me an email address and I will email you a very good paper on Gehenna written by my brother Michael in Austria. Utuna thinks I made up this person and that I myself wrote the paper. I did not. If I did I would take credit because it is the best paper on Gehenna that I have read to this point. Hope you agree. If you don't, that's OK too. frank
Hey John! I have a challenges to the framework you've explained, if you would like to hash this out: Argument: on principle, the 'resurrection of the unrighteous' taking place after Satan is released at the end of the 1000 years for a 'final test' is not just. Why? Because in this framework the 'GC' who come out of the tribulation have 1000 years to learn righteousness and love in an earth ruled by Christ, and are then tested. Yet, the billions who died before the 1000 years are resurrected for a 'defense' of their ignorant lives in a court of the heavens? That doesn't make any sense. You are getting this notion from this scripture I believe: (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. - Revelation 20:5 I would suggest that the 'dead' being given life AFTER the 1000 years is a spiritual reference, in the same vein as when Jesus said "let the dead bury the dead" in reference to LIVING people burying the dead. In other words, the billions of 'unrighteous' are brought to life during the 1000 year reign, and presuming they don't fall for Satan's trap at the end, are given 'life' [eternal]. Hence, those who did not take the mark are 'not subject to the second death' because in effect they have already passed the 'test'. This is why Satan is released at the end of the 1000 years, to test those who died in ignorance, or unrighteousness. Otherwise, in your framework, the conclusion is that those who are alive today have a 'better chance' at finding eternal life (because they have the privilege of being alive during the 1000 years). Any thoughts about that?
Excellent question; but John aside, the alternative is random person X throughout history being condemned eternally for ignorance, or am I missing something?
Yes your missing something, John doesn't need tempted again, and there's no reason for him to be resurrected during the 1000 years. The rest of the dead raised after the 1000 years are faithful from mankind throughout history, just like Christ's bride, the second death has no hold over them.
Hi Joshua: So, correct me if I'm misunderstanding this. The righteous through faith who have lived throughout this system of things, don't come back to life until the 1,000 years are over. Is that correct? How about those without faith, where do they go? And who are going to be the subjects of the Kingdom? Please explain. frank
Those who will be former (and still) righteous ones as well as the former unrighteous ones will both pass the final test after the 1 000 years (the rest of mankind) and will have their names written in the book of life. They will be given eternal life as a reward. (John 5:28, 29) . . .Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment. (Acts 24:15) . . .And I have hope toward God, which hope these men also look forward to, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous. (Luke 14:13, 14) . . .But when you spread a feast, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind; and you will be happy, because they have nothing with which to repay you. For you will be repaid in the resurrection of the righteous ones.â€
Resurrection of the Dead Hello all' Years ago the re-reading of John's gospel started a fire of learning inside me. I was being readied to receive the truth and the re-birth, I know, because after decades of stale material from WT (sad) I was on fire to begin freeing my mind to look at the scriptures with a new page; just as each one here is obviously doing. Matt.18:3 There is much to re-learn about the resurrection from what we were taught, I see clear as a bell. John 5:28,29 shows all will be standing before J's appointed Judge, Christ. He actually wakes them up. Some will be judged right then to receive life and forgiveness of sins and allowed into a cleansed new earth, with New Jerusalem settled in, and functioning. This only occurs after Satan is destroyed according to Jesus in Rev. 20-22; not during the 1000 years. And that makes better sense to me anyway. Rev.20:1-6 shows again; men will be judged according to the way they lived during their lifetime; NOT allowed to live in Paradise and ruin it. I have written a lot about this on my site at home. But the scriptures are super clear for you to form your own conclusions. Romans 1:18-32 clearly parallels this thought; God is able to judge men's hearts....he does not need the Devil to hang around for eternity to 'test' everyone. Satan has demanded a test of all the anointed. They must be refined as if by fire so as to be fit; case-hardened as a ruler should. They are the ones attacked when Satan is released: notice that. After he is finished, the resurrection begins; and this is happening before Jesus' throne...SOMEWHERE....not necessarily here on earth. Then he pitches undesirables into Lake of Fire; righteous into Paradise.
SingleCell, how would you explain that some will be anointed very late in this system as Jesus said "in the eleventh hour". And we know that the anointed will be freed from sin when they get to heaven. So why do the anointed get rid of their sinfulness so quickly??? If great crowd will need 1000 years to "come to life" if that's what Revelation 20:5 means. Is it fair that the anointed are freed from sin in a few years, if the great crowd will need 1000 years to "come to life ?"
The anointed ones will be judged when Jesus comes back and refines his temple, his future wife, rewarding his "own flesh" according to how they will have used their talents, before the mariage takes place. The judgment of the rest of mankind is typified by the judgment of the sheep and the goats (Mat.25:31-33). The tests for the anointed ones are not necessarily destined to prove anything to God because he can read hearts, but first and foremost for others, like the angels and the humans, to see who and what kind of rulers/kings the anointed ones, on individual grounds, will be (1 Cor. 4:9). John 5:28-29 describes the resurrection of the "dead" and of those who are sleeping in death, not about the anointed ones.
The 144 000 brothers of Christ only are bought from the earth and are given everything, why ! even immortality ! (Revelation 5:9, 10) . . .“You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.. . . The rest of mankind will live on thanks to their faith until their names are written down in the book of life : (John 3:16) . . .“For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life." (Galatians 2:15, 16) . . .We who are Jews by birth, and not sinners from the nations, recognize that a man is declared righteous, not by works of law, but only through faith in Jesus Christ.. . . (Romans 1:17) . . .For in it God’s righteousness is being revealed by faith and for faith, just as it is written: “But the righteous one will live by reason of faith.â€