How Old Is Life On Earth?

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Joshuastone7, Jun 9, 2015.

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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    This is a followup to my last post #99.

    There is no doubt (in contrary to the PDF you posted) that the flood covered the entire planet. The scriptures are very clear on this. As well all flesh perished including all humans other then the 8 on the boat (again unlike the PDF claims that you posted).

    Gen 7:19,20 "The waters overwhelmed the earth so greatly that all the tall mountains under the whole heavens were covered. The waters rose up to 15 cubits above the mountains."

    In order to make this scripture local one would have to apply every single word in it as a metaphor. Is this the proper way to understand scripture, or should one first imagine Jehovah meant what he said unless he specifically leads us to believe he is speaking in general form as can be determined by common sense? It is the moment someone thinks there is hidden information in scripture when such persons fall away from truth.

    The scripture clearly says "all the tall mountains under the whole heavens". This clearly shows Jehovah intends that we understand the whole "earth" a few words back as not just dry ground, but the entire ground under all the heavens, simply because Jehovah tells us all the mountains under the heavens. That statement right there makes the "earth" the entire earth under all the heavens.

    This is no different then when someone misunderstands Gen 2:4 "This is a history of the heavens and the earth in the time they were created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven."

    Jehovah here is not referring to Gen 1:1 and "in the beginning". "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." He is is speaking of the second and third creative days. We now know he means "day" as a metaphor because Gen 1:1 was not part of the creative days and he says singular "earth" and "heaven, not plural such as is found in Gen 1:1. The point to all of this is the creative days were Jehovah's attention to this planet, not the universe. Gen 1:1 was the creation of the universe, and not part of the creative days.

    The same words can have different meaning, and each word can be used as metaphors or literally, but all the rules are there, everything we need to know is laid out in scripture to determine what Jehovah means. The hard part is not letting your own understanding get in the way.

    I wish to keep my comments toward scripture for now on, I'm burnt out discussing worldly beliefs, so called scientists, who are indeed children without parental guidance.
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Member

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    Evolutionists ? Who's evolutionist here ? I overtly disagree with the Creationists. Am I an evolutionist ? Shame on me again ? Disdain once again ?

    Is there a problem with semantics (among other education-related things, not of yours, of course) on your side of the pool....?

    Do you know the novel and movie "The Name of the Rose". The first time I watched it on the TV on a VCR about 20 years ago, I watched it thrice in a row because of the so numerous chords it struck in me. It was an epiphany, a world come true. It put words and images on my feelings, for being scathed and bridled by the elders, the tense ones and whatnot. This movie is a gem, solid gold like no other against the dark forces of obscurantism !

    [video=youtube;jUUB96c6EpY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUUB96c6EpY[/video]

    This post isn't against you but because of you, of my affection for you, because I needed to vent, because a significant part of my many different hearts (spiritual, figurative, etc) beats not far from the Rock Creek Butte....

    I'll post later this week-end why your find won't work.... It's very easy to understand. I have explained it on this thread on several occasions but you may have missed my posts about it. No biggie !
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    We can make ourselves a martyr, or we can understand that some understandings we hold are either of minority status or simply wrong.

    Most of those who believe life evolved over millions of years believe in evolution, and the remaining who believe in God believe in the trinity. I would say that makes you one of the only on the planet that believes life evolved over millions of years but yet believes Jehovah and Christ are separate beings. I would say this puts you in a position to walk softly, not one to throw your weight around as if the dissidence lack understanding. (In your mind, and presentation.)

    With all do respect brother, with this subject you present your point as if it is common knowledge, and you overlook glaring discrepancies, such as sources you post claiming the flood was not a world wide event. Again, with all do respect, no one here agrees with that assessment. We love you, but your arrogance reminds me of Domenic.

    We, none of us here have truth. All we do know is that we have gathered together in discussions of scripture, and this thread has greatly diverged from that primary principle.

    Jehovah's words to Job should ring clear in our ears. Job 38:4 "Where were you when I founded the earth?Tell me, if you think you understand." Does it really matter how Jehovah created this planet? Should not our focus on this DB be by the words in that book, the Bible? It always has been, I'm not sure why lately we put such emphasis on worldly understandings...

    In the end will it matter how long the creative days were? May we determine when the end will come by the strata? Can we extend our days by a single day by our continual study of worldly understandings, all be it by Christendoms evolutionist/creation understanding?

    I believe I speak for all of us here when I say we love you as a brother, but it's by encouragement I suggest you step back and understand again, you are the minority (singular) here with your understanding as it pertains to the age of life on earth... Although it within itself is fine, but take care in persecuting others who disagree with your unique understanding, it does nothing to put us in our place, but only shows a disdain on the side of the determined.

    With all do respect...
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Member

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    What kind of rational discussion is possible when sentences like this one are written after all I said above ?

    Anyway...

     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    What you have said above has prompted such responses from all here...
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Member

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    As I said, the example you have given can't be tenable because of paleomagnetism.

    The principle is very easy to understand. Let's say that you have a compass in your hands. The needle is on a liquid and aligns itself towards the top of Earth's magnetic field. Even if you turn around yourself, the needle will turn too and align itself again with the Earth's magnetic field.

    Let's say now that you put the compass in the freezer. Once the liquid frozen, the needle obviously won't move around as before. It'll just follow you around as you turn.

    The same thing takes place with rocks when they cool down like around volcanos, for example or under the oceans. There are billions of small compasses in the molten rock that align themselves towards the top of Earth's magnetic field but that remain like frozen therein when the rock cools down.

    As time goes by, it all becomes like a GPS and time marker. We can deduce where the rock was when it cooled down and by comparison with other rocks, when it cooled down. The magnetic field having changed of location lots of times in the past, it's therefore possible to know plenty of interesting details.

    The oceanic crust has kept the records of the many magnetic switches and variations and as a result, we know that it is very old. If the oceanic crust was 4 500 years old only, we wouldn't see all those variations. The billions of small compasses would be aligned towards where the magnetic poles were during the Deluge.

    Here is a video that will explain it all to you, perhaps in better ways than mine.

    [video=youtube;1lXe4hv7SGs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lXe4hv7SGs[/video]

    Just another detail because I think that there is a misunderstanding here.

    In France, those whom we call the Creationists are those who reject science and have a very literal interpretation of the Bible (Creation account, Flood, etc). They also are considered as a political entity, => Sarah Palin.
    Maybe that in the USA, the Creationists are all those who believe in Creation. That's not what I meant when I talked about the Creationists. For me, the Creationists aren't all those who believe in Creation. They are the fundamentalists of the Bible (creation in six literal days, bla bla bla).

    I think there was a confusion here between what I mean by the name Creationists and how you understand it.
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Member

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    For us, the Creationists are an American religious trend characterized by the total rejection of the scientific discoveries that contradict their literal interpretation of the Bible and so to the point of being ludicrously erroneous and glaringly dishonest. We view them as knuckle-dragging bigots with the IQ of oysters... They are the paragon of obscurantism.

    And you, what is your definition ? Because I feel that they is a misunderstanding going on here...
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    I'm surprised at this comment, I consider the Bible as the primary and first source of knowledge. If science contradicts the Bible, then scripture trumps worldly science.

    I did not know there was a worldly subject that you believe is a foremost authority over scripture. It appears you are the one that believes so strongly in this worldly science that you will twist scripture in any way need be in order to fit your infallible evolutionary theory.

    I never thought that such a thing would come from you...

    As for me, the Bible will be my primary source of knowledge above all others.

    Who is we, do you have a mouse in your pocket? I only see you here. Are you claiming a religious sect? From what I understand, these ones who believe in millions of years of life yet claim a belief in God, also believe in the trinity.

    Are you a church of one?

    These people you speak of as bigots just so happen to be everyone here but you, it's a shame to put us all down like that...
     
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    wallflower

    wallflower Moderator

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    Question: Is it possible that there is a difference in the way that an American "creationist" and the way that a European "creationist" would define their beliefs?
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Thank you my dear friend Wallflower for pointing out the arrogance. Would an Australian creationist explain creation differently then any one else in the world? Hence the ridiculousness. What does region have to do with anything other the stereotyping and racism?

    Nothing anyone presents here outside of scripture is anything other then theory, yet some take it as authority, even trumping scripture. However for myself and my family we trust in Gods word, not in mans...
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Member

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    Yes, you are right. There definitely is. That's why I made research about what Creationism really means because I noticed after a while that we weren't talking about the same thing.

    I can't talk for Europe as a whole but at least in France, the broader meaning of that word is largely unheard of. As I had told SingleCell once, the debate atheists vs believers and evolution vs creation is very much pacified. For example, as anything having to do with religion is out of the public sphere, matters with religious content is de facto out of school. If the parents disagree with evolution, it's their responsibly to teach alternative scenarii at home. As a result, as there is no debate ever, we nearly never hear about Creationism excepted when the most radical and caricatural form of it shows up, that is the one that comes from the "Bible belt". Their stance is generally considered as ludicrous, even by believers and personally, I have never met anyone who believed them. As for the JWs, they traditionally believe in the 7x7k scenario with the earth being millions of years old. If you asked anyone here who are the creationists, they'd answer you that they are said American fundamentalists. It's a part of the American folklore which we often hear here like the conspiracy theories and whatnot. I'm sure that almost everyone here in France and believing in Creation to whom you ask if they are creationists will answer that they aren't so. The connotation is really, as I said, the one of knuckle-dragging bigots, the return of obscurantism and of the Inquisition of old.

    Well, as a result of this misunderstanding, I'd like to apologize if I ever shocked anyone and will henceforth use those words the way the English-speaking world does.

    I'm gonna ask Londoner how these words are understood in UK.
     
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    wallflower

    wallflower Moderator

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    I cannot speak for the whole of Australia but only in the areas where I have gone out in the ministry.

    To me, there seemed to be 2 schools of thought ("2 camps") within the creationist belief system.

    Every time I met someone at the door, who identified themselves as being a "creationist," I would have to ascertain which version of creationism they believed. That was necessary because I couldn't just assume which category they belonged to.
     
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    Londoner

    Londoner Member

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    Hi Utuna :)

    I was planning to keep out of this because I believe that there is plenty of evidence that is ignored by "scientists" which suggests that the earth isn't as old as it appears. The Christian Scientists have some, as well as other Christian scholars.

    You have to be careful how you use the term "creationist" in the UK. Essentially, all Christians are creationists to non believers in the UK because we all believe the universe was created by God. At the same time, we are aware of the fundamental Creationists who believe the earth was created in 6 literal 24 hour days.

    So it's a case of explaining yourself when you use the title "Creationist".


    Londoner
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Completely agreed, thank you for this comment...

    It is exactly the same here in the US, if you claim to be an Evolutionist that means you claim there is no God. Creationist are those who believe in God. I haven't brought this up for the sake of this conversation because we all here know what each other are talking about, but in a crowd that would not be understood.

    As far as people here are concerned there are only two ideas, evolution and creation. Utuna is the first person I have ever met that believes God created the universe but yet animals were here for millions of years.

    Yes we are aware of those fundamentalist who believe in literal 6 days of creation and I don't believe there is one single person on this forum that believes in that idea.

    Here in the US Evolutionist take God out of every theory. Therefore everything that happens is Godless, and this is what is taught in our schools as fact. It is mandatory curriculum, and every student must study these classes from grade school to college, while creation is outlawed in schools. Think twice if you think Americans don't know anything about evolution.

    And when someone comes at an American who believes in God and says evolution over millions of years is a fact, you are going to find that creationists are going to think you are taking God out of creation, because one should keep in mind that Jehovah could have created the entire universe and every fossil and life in the blink of an eye. I'm not saying he would have done that, for it's deceptive, but I'm trying to make a point, that one single action by Jehovah that interrupts the natural progression of the universe and all the laws of physics go out the window, such as the events during the flood.

    Explain to me how Jesus raised the dead, what happen to the dead cells? How did he kill a tree with just thought? Was that natural progression of nature? Nothing can be justified as physics when Jehovah has intervened. When Christ calmed the sea, he no doubt interrupted natural sediment progression. From the wind and rain the environment would have changed, however so slightly.

    I don't know how it is in your countries, but we've fought a lot of Evolutionist over our years.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    [TABLE="width: 605"]
    [TR]
    [TH="colspan: 5"]An interesting Wikipedia page on this subject.


    Religious Differences on the Question of Evolution (United States)
    Percentage who agree that evolution is the best explanation for the origin of human life on earth[/TH]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD][/TD]
    [TD="align: right"][/TD]
    [TD][/TD]
    [TD="align: right"][/TD]
    [TD="align: right"][/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="colspan: 2"]Atheist/Agnostic[/TD]
    [TD]  [/TD]
    [TD="colspan: 2, align: right"]87%[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="colspan: 2"]Buddhist[/TD]
    [TD]  [/TD]
    [TD="colspan: 2, align: right"]81%[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="colspan: 2"]Hindu[/TD]
    [TD]  [/TD]
    [TD="colspan: 2, align: right"]80%[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="colspan: 2"]Secular unaffiliated[/TD]
    [TD]  [/TD]
    [TD="colspan: 2, align: right"]77%[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="colspan: 2"]Jewish[/TD]
    [TD]  [/TD]
    [TD="colspan: 2, align: right"]77%[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="colspan: 2"]Catholic[/TD]
    [TD]  [/TD]
    [TD="colspan: 2, align: right"]58%[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="colspan: 2"]Religious unaffiliated[/TD]
    [TD]  [/TD]
    [TD="colspan: 2, align: right"]55%[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="colspan: 2"]Orthodox[/TD]
    [TD]  [/TD]
    [TD="colspan: 2, align: right"]54%[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="colspan: 2"]Mainline Protestant[/TD]
    [TD]  [/TD]
    [TD="colspan: 2, align: right"]51%[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="colspan: 2"]Muslim[/TD]
    [TD]  [/TD]
    [TD="colspan: 2, align: right"]45%[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="colspan: 2"]Hist. Black Protest.[/TD]
    [TD]  [/TD]
    [TD="colspan: 2, align: right"]39%[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="colspan: 2"]Evang. Protestant[/TD]
    [TD]  [/TD]
    [TD="colspan: 2, align: right"]23%[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="colspan: 2"]Mormon[/TD]
    [TD]  [/TD]
    [TD="colspan: 2, align: right"]22%[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="colspan: 2"]Jehovah's Witnesses[/TD]
    [TD]  [/TD]
    [TD="colspan: 2, align: right"]8%[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="colspan: 5"]Total U.S. population percentage:48%
    Source: Pew Forum[SUP][56][/SUP][/TD]
    [/TR]
    [/TABLE]
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Member

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    8% of the JWs believe in the theory of evolution...? lol That's funny !
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Maybe a little more information? Do you feel that number is high, or you feel that number is low?
     
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    Poetry of Providence

    Poetry of Providence Active Member

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    It's always interesting to look at how others interpret what "they think"
    others think ...and is WRONG with great frequency ...( ok that's what I
    think)
     
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    Poetry of Providence

    Poetry of Providence Active Member

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    my interjection of evolutionists had NO reference to any of your posts ..
    just that even among those in the "scientific community" the frequency
    of divisions are nearly as many as among "christian sects" and there is
    no proof positive of many of such compilations of "what happened"
    during these lengthy "ages" they give as truth of humanity's origins or
    the origin of life on this planet ..given that time and God are equally
    unknowable , and should any of us become permanent members of
    the body of life ..even then I'm unsure if we will have any closer
    idea of the embodiment of "Time that only God can know" and the
    creative acts of space time and matter ...when for a certainty we do
    know it has come into being (life)and is a gift unlike any gift that we
    could hope to give another except by introduction to the source ..
    and that source is using us to pass on the gift to others ...become
    reconciled to God ...love , life , truth ...too many die before they
    have ever lived ...really maybe later I'll get around to more science
    (did my earlier eight years ) and digging around a Tell ...that would
    be more my speed ...
    By the way I have watched that movie a few times ...and probably
    will again ...perhaps that is the irreverent side of my life ...
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Member

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    I have never met anyone during the preaching work who ever believed in the Creationism made in USA. They express their belief as I did on this thread; I believe in Creation but am not a Creationist.

    Having made some research in dictionaries about what Creationism is, I have found that there isn't a clear definition of it, the difference being in how much literally the Creation account must be read :

    1) God created the universe and life on earth exactly as a literal interpretation of the Bible tells it.

    2) God created the universe and life on earth regardless of how it took place in reality, even through evolution. That is, evolution guided by God's active force is also Creation (Intelligent Design, Theistic Evolution).

    There is a whole gamut of beliefs, understandings and interpretations in what Creationism is in reality. It's also what I desperately tried to explain in post #84 but my critique of the Creationists concerned the YECs only, mainly the one made in USA that Josh used in his argumentation.
     

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