.( So that even the belief in the trinity may not keep someone from surviving into the new world.) Really?? You really beleive that Jehovah would be that disloyal to his son Jesus..to allow any into his new world without recognising the torture and agony he suffered for them... If they cannot give Jesus his rightful place and respect as his own person and Kingly right...then why would he allow them into the new world......if they have not been able to clearly see the disrespect and insult to Jesus By believing the demonic type teaching of the trinity..(.as it is a direct slap in the face to Jesus)... after Christ second coming and the two witness clearing up many misconceptions....why on earth would he allow them to enter into the new world....would they not have proven themselves to be Anti Christs......
The trinity is a misunderstanding in scripture, not unlike 1914. Would a loving God cast out a JW deep in the time of the end if they still believe in 1914, but yet have faith, and try to live a Godly life? You see, I've become a pragmatist as I've matured spiritually, and I've begun to understand the reality of what scripture says allows our names to be written into the book of life. The Watchtower has promoted (all these years) that exact accurate knowledge of scripture is needed to be saved, and I believe that is wrong. If the Watchtower were correct and exact scriptural accurate knowledge is needed, then they would even condemn themselves, for they are guilty of just as much misunderstanding in scripture as other religions. I have also come to understand that Christ Jesus becomes God with a capital G. The truth actually lays in the middle of JW's and trinitarians. Jesus was created, but scripture does call him God with a capital G, and he is worshiped just like his Father, but what is missing is when he becomes God. I've thought about making a video on the subject, and I may some day, but you see, scripture seems to be more concerned with faith and living a Godly life, then to understand all of scripture as a prerequisite to life. Jehovah's forgiveness and love I believe will be more abundant then we realize when the Great Crowd is truly gathered in. So to sum up, you can read back on this forum and find me saying the same things you said here in this post, that accurate knowledge of Jehovah and his Son's relationship were a requirement to survival, and I strongly argued that point, but I have come to realize a few things as I've matured, and I do not believe that accurate knowledge of 1914, nor Jesus's origin is a prerequisite for life, but faith will be...
How do you reconcile your line of reasoning with what's written in John 17:3: This means everlasting life,+ their coming to know you,* the only true God,+ and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ. I think there is a big difference in understanding prophecy or knowing Jehovah and Jesus. Having accurate knowledge about Jehovah is what is needed for everlasting life. Understanding prophecy not. Understanding prophecy can help us to see in which time we live and that we're close to the end. But that has no impact on the way we should live our lives. Even if the end would be more than 1000 years away from now, we are still expected to get to know Jehovah and Jesus and live a life according to Bible principles. So i do think that the WT has helped us to get to know Jehovah and Jesus. Sure they have misunderstandings regarding prophecy, 1914, and several other points, but according to the Bible this is to be expected until Jesus comes and cleanses his house. What house would he cleanse if there is no house to go to, I mean if all of Christianity would be one big house....
I don't see a conflict... It's best to keep in mind the time period I believe the Great Crowd will be gathered. You must understand I am saying this event comes years after the Watchtower is no more. Therefore the Great Crowd will be gathered out of all the nations, and they will all have varying understandings of scripture. I do not find in scripture that the requirement for survival is to completely understand the relationship between our Father and his Son. The only difference between JW's and Trinitarians is one believes Jesus had a beginning, and the other does not, and I have come to understand this confusion has arisen because of scripture describing Jesus as God. To me this is simply a misunderstanding not unlike 1914, and although I am not a judge at this time, I have greatly changed my opinion on what constitutes survival. Trust me, I understand where you're coming from, I ardently argued your side for years, such as post #17 HERE: (Joshuastone7) "Jesus could not have made it anymore clear then his words at Jhn 17:3 "Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." This is what is required of Jehovah's favor, forgiveness, eternal life! To understand the true nature of Jehovah and of his son. This is the reason the Jew's lost Jehovah's favor, because they rejected the son." I've simply changed my mind after further study into the role Jesus actually plays, and understanding Jesus becomes God.
Well I think there are some who are so brainwashed by 1914 they will deny Jesus when he returns and still follow the Governing Body. Thus losing out on everlasting life like the Jews did. 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.
You are right. Everyone will have to realize their wrong doings, and if they refuse to drop their false teaching, they will recieve the mark of the beast, a long with anyone who worships the beast. Anyone who doesn't know Jesus at Armageddon will die (is the trinity knowing Jesus?), anyone who believes the lie of 1914 after the two witnesses disavowed it and Jesus returns, will die, anyone worshipping a graven image will die, everyone will have a chance to believe the truth, for the good news of the kingdom will be preached to the entire inhabited earth. Jehovah will not kill people who were mislead by their parents' religion, but if they refuse to turn away from their previous course, they will be terminated.
It appears to me the mark of the beast is the mark of Solomon. It is a condition of once serving Jehovah faithfully but then falling away. The trumpets refine the faithful, and the bowls damn the unfaithful. Wheat/Weeds Can we say this is true? Is this a requirement for survival, or is it faith? Agreed... I have come to understand that this message will happen right after the two witnesses are resurrected, and will be broadcast to the whole world over our existing media channels. So basically the message will be worship God, oppose the world and survive the coming of Gods kingdom. Which his kingdom will just be a few days away at that point. Rev 14:6,7 "And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, and he had everlasting good news to declare to those who dwell on the earth, to every nation and tribe and tongue and people. He was saying in a loud voice: “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of judgment by him has arrived, so worship the One who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and the springs of water.” With a world wide message there is no time to teach all scripture to everyone, and there are varying abilities to understand Gods plan. No, instead ones faith will save them in that moment, a single moment to make a decision to support Jehovah's kingdom or the worlds will decide their fate. This is the the understanding I have come too...
I agree with your last points also. But you don't think with the real manifestation of Jesus, all those who refuse to follow him because everything happening is contradicting the 1914 doctrine, will die at Armageddon? The scripture says they will be judged because they took pleasure in unrighteousness, because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved, therefore, during the last days, if they don't accept the truth and disregard 1914, they will not be saved. I am not saying today, those who believe it won't be resurrected. But those alive during the Parousia who deny jesus because of 1914 will not be saved, along with any false religion, teaching, etc. Why does the judgement start in God's house if it doesn't matter what you believe?
What's being discussed is the wheat and weeds. The weeds are those who professed to serve Jehovah but who will fall away from serving him, this is the meaning of 666, it is the mark of Solomon, where once they served Jehovah, they fall away during the 1260 days. Again, this is the premise of the trumpets and bowls, wheat and weeds. Revelation tells us 1/3 of current Witnesses will make it through the fall of the WT, while 2/3 will not... But as for understanding prophecy or the exact nature of our Fathers relationship with Jesus in order to survive, makes no sense, and is not a requirement to be saved, faith and good works is. I do not find anything in scripture to tell me anyone who still believes 1914 in the end will not be saved. All people have varying ability of understanding the Bible. It won't be a matter of understanding everything the two witnesses teach, it will simply be a decision to worship God who made the heavens and earth, or support this worlds kingdom. It is the hearts condition that matters. The message of the two witnesses will not be one of conformity, this concept has been done over and over and is more often then not called a cult. No, but instead a call for uniformity, one of gathering together in the worship of the one true God. Yes we'll have the truth of chronology and prophecy available, but there is no way the two witnesses will be preaching everyone must believe as they do to be saved. It will be a simple message, able to be understood by all. There of course will be meat for those who wish to study further, but it's not necessary to understand the 2300 day count in order to be saved, and that same concept applies to many subjects in the Bible. The outline set out for salvation is very clear, and does not include the necessity to accurately understand the nature of Jehovah's relationship with his Father, nor prophetic timetables. Don't get me wrong, the two witnesses will have accurate knowledge as to Jehovah's timetables and the make up of his relationship with his Son, but again I do not believe you can find the idea that such things are required for survival. And what we are going to find is, that both the Jw's and Trinitarians are right about part of the relationship between Jehovah and Jesus, but neither have the whole picture. Because in reality what scripture is telling us is that in fact Jesus is spoken of as God with a capital G, but he is however created, only becoming God once he begins ruling, first in heaven, then here on earth.
Josh you have been very kind and gentle with me In the past..and yes we have disagreed with certain things over time...but your thoughts hear on your new view of the trinity ...are a deep,worry to me......I went back on line and researched the beleif on the trinity just to make sure I had it right and had not been misled as to its understanding .. The trinity from what I have read last night on line amongst beliefs that support it ....is this in a tight nut shell.. Jesus Is The almighty God...but got split or fractioned off to become Jesus ..then resumed his full Almighty God like state on his resurrection . This is not acceptable to Jehovah because it is not the truth..and is based on a deception crafted and born by the devil .... It is a belief we DO NEED TO HAVE ACCURATE...and your stating and minimising that I beleive Is spiritually dangerous..especially to hurt and confused sheep. We all know..or should know here that Jesus did become a God on his resurrection and victory on the earth...( that is a surmising on my part and it may be very wrong but at some stage he became a God) .. he was never the Almighty God Jehovah...and he was created by that Almighty God Jehovah .... I want to clear somthing up as you think I beleive we need accurate knowledge to survive.....I have NEVER EVER believed that and if I have portrayed that thought on any of my posts then I apogise to all... FAITH is what will save us is the End....not what we know in detail.... I personally beleive it will become preety black and white as to our final testing...not deep understandings on scriptures..and Faith will carry us thru if it is strong enough... Your belief and post on this is rather confusing and very very concerning to me...even on this site and many sites like this we all think we know TTATT..when we know no such thing ...we have a little weeny bit of umderstanding..and that's it...so sites like this can also become very dangerous ..and we too can become big headed and self righteous ...And I'm including myself in this..... yes you are totally absolutely right...we have NO IDEA the power of love Jehovah will extend to us in the time of the end....but even with that massive unbelievable love....he himself wondered if he would find the faith on the earth when he returned..and he himself said he would make mankind a rare thing after his judgement. He also said he would refine us...perhaps the remnant but also anybody he gather to him.. Also just knowing the personality of Jehovah as a father and his close bond and love for his Son Jesus/Michael should tell you something....he is a Jelous God and does indeed require exclusive devotion ....but he is also Jealous and protective over his son..and would require...indeed demand our proper respect and position of that precious Son....that is in Jehovah's personality to do that..to be like that... There is no way...absolutely no way in the world...this world or that to come..that he will allow any one to enter in to his paradise world with out that due respect paid to Jesus.....and you are fooling yourself and perhaps others here if you think otherwise. If we cannot get such a basic requirement an understanding of the trinity straight ..and fall into the trap that it does not matter....then we all here might as well just HANG LOOSE... and wait and see what is happening .... Jesus/Michael....MUST BE RESPECTED for who he is and what he has done and his unique position I no longer could care less over 1914 or the errors of the society or chronology.....they are not what is important as we come down to our final testing...and they are indeed a testing for all those in his house....a refinement tool or a tool allowed by Jehovah. I hope you rethink your easy stand on the trinity.....as it is a affront to our Lord and future King Jesus Christ ....and makes me so very uneasy being here now..... With much warm love but serious confusion ..sis thinking
I understand your stance on the Trinity, I was the most vocal on here to absolutely deny anyone who would possibly believe the Trinity could ever be saved, but I've had some very deep conversations with some very close individuals to me about this subject. Ones like Timothy, and Tsaphah, and you see I have come to understand that what I thought I knew, I had to relearn, and this is a very important thing in my work and future responsibilities before Jehovah... Is Jehovah God with a capital G? Yes... Does the Bible speak of Jesus as the capital G? Yes... You see, although Jesus was created, he becomes what his Father is in full, fully worshiped as God. In the original languages all letters were capitalized, so what we are talking about is concept. When we speak of God, we think of the one who is worshiped and above all things. The Bible does describe Jesus as equal to Jehovah in everything except the fact that Jehovah is called the God of God (Jesus). Now look at this; Heb 1:8 "But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom." (NIV) No matter how the Watchtower wants to talk away this scripture, it is describing Jesus as God, period. Now the question we should be asking is why. Let's compare; Psm 45:6 "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom." (NIV) Now let's bring it all together by reading; Psm 45:7 "You love righteousness and hate wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy." Therefore Jehovah is Jesus's God, and at some point Jesus becomes God. The term here as "God your God" is to denote superiority. Yes Jesus's God is superior to him, but they are spoken of as having the same responsibilities under them. These scriptures place Jesus equally with Jehovah in everything except Jehovah's superiority over him. So the Watchtower has spent all these years trying to prove Jesus is not the same individual as Jehovah, but at the same time failed to recognize the real status Jesus obtains. While in reality the truth lies in between the Trinity and the JW's. Yes Jesus becomes equal to Jehovah as to worship, but he will always have his God, his Father. Heb 1:6 "And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him." Jesus is already worshiped by angels, is it a stretch of the imagination that he will be worshiped when he begins ruling on earth? Nope... It's obvious that's what will happen, until the end of the 1000 years when all things will be turned back to Jehovah and he will be the only God in all to all. Jesus will achieve exactly what Satan wanted, to be God over all things, what an amazing thing, and it all comes out of Gods plan... I don't want to make this post huge so I'm hitting points briefly, however it is simply my opinion such subjects that are as complex as to when Jesus is worshiped by angels, or scriptures calling Jesus God does not apply to our salvation. I have realized that this subject is far more complex then JW's have attempted to make it, while in truth the reality is somewhere in the middle. Trust me Sister, I know your passion, I had just as much pertaining to this subject, but don't worry, Jesus was the very first creation by Jehovah his God, and Jesus created everything else. He's only given the status of God by his God in order to fulfill his plan until that status is returned to Jehovah at the end of the 1000 years. Dangerous has nothing to do with my work and responsibility in Jehovah's word, truth does.
Philippians 2:5-11 Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and became human. More than that, when he came as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death, yes, death on a torture stake. For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground— and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. It explains right here, how he is also God, yet not equal to God the father, Jehovah.
I'm sorry but you are not explaining yourself very well and your post is very confusing... So I will ask a direct question...and that might help both of us... Do you beleive that Jesus on returning to heaven became God The Almighty God? And yes Jesus is noted in the scriptures as God..in fact Mighty God...and with capitals at that.. Isiaha 9:6 For us a child is born to us a son is given and the government will be on his shoulders and he will be called Mighty God, Everlasting Father , Prince of Peace.. He has gained the right to Everlasting Father..because thru him we have or will gain the privledge to everlasting life that he paid the price for us to attain to. Jesus often refered to his followers in a father like manner Luke 13:34. How I have wanted to gather you together like a hen gathers her chicks to herself..... All the scriptures seem to indicate to me..at no time was Jesus The Almighty God..and even after he returns the Kingdom to his Father...he does not become the Almighty God...or morph into him somehow. 1 Corinthians 15:28 But when all things have been subjected to him, then the Son Himself will also SUBJECT HIMSELF to the ONE who subjected all things to him that God may be all things to everyone .... But basically Josh I need you to explain what you really actually beleive clearer...I don't think you beleive in the trinity as such?.....but something else which is really not clear...to me anyway... The Hebrews 1:8 is not a problem for me at all ...I think he's talking about Jesus who is now An almighty God...remember on his return he was now awarded a place higher than the Angels who then were required to actually worship him...( Heb 1:6 ) Jesus was raised to an exulted position on his victory ....but I can see no scriptural reason to think he morphed into the Almighty creator Jehovah God at any time....
I don't know that Josh is actually believing in the trinity...he seems to be trying to relay something else...but I cannot work it out...
Actually I've been wondering this a bit myself lately...that anyone can be the faithful and discreet slave...???...it's such a foreign concept for me tho..and probably to hard for me to digest...
I think I better correct my typo error where I stated at Hebrews one that Jesus is an almighty God....Jesus is a mighty God....not an Almighty God...as I wrongly typed...
Jesus is never called "Almighty" God, but simply God. All we have to go on is scripture, and it doesn't matter what I believe, it matters what it says. When saying "God your God" that denotes that they are equal in every way except for the fact the Jehovah is Jesus's God. I think we've been very clear on this forum, that the teaching of the Trinity is false and not allowed to be encouraged. The trinity teaches Jesus did not have a beginning, and the three Gods are three in one being. This is a false teaching and stems from Babylon. The Bible teaches us that Jesus is equal to God as to their responsibilities to the kingdom once Jesus begins ruling, unlike the WT teaches that Jesus is only a god, never capital. Yet unlike the trinity, Jesus was created and they are separate beings. I will not alienate billions of Trinitarians in the time of the end, our message should be one of uniformity, finding ways to bring everyone on earth together, not separate them like the WT has done. The two witnesses message should not only be truth of scripture, but finding commonality in order to gain the most. This is the whole premise of Paul's words; 1Cor 9:19-23 "For though I am free from all people, I have made myself the slave to all, so that I may gain as many people as possible. To the Jews I became as a Jew in order to gain Jews; to those under law I became as under law, though I myself am not under law, in order to gain those under law. To those without law I became as without law, although I am not without law toward God but under law toward Christ, in order to gain those without law. To the weak I became weak, in order to gain the weak. I have become all things to people of all sorts, so that I might by all possible means save some. But I do all things for the sake of the good news, in order to share it with others."