Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Thinking, Jun 23, 2017.
How did the topic, “How To Handle A JW Who Says The Evil Slave Class Does Not Exist”, get changed into the subject of the trinity? The subject was turned into a discussion about God.
I have to ask: What does the English word God really mean? Go back to “god, God, and GOD, lord, Lord, and LORD” which I posted on August 21, 2014. It may be hard to read because this site wants to default to the awful arial font, and seems to have a problem figuring which font to use.
But, you will get the message. god, God, and GOD
(According to ONLINE ETYMOLOGY DICTIONARY)
That was probably partially my fault, so here we go, a new thread dedicated to this subject...
Yes, the term god is simply a word to denote authority, and that's what I was trying to portray. The WT uses a capital G with Jehovah but only a lowercase g with Jesus, so I was trying to keep my response in line with the concept of why they do that.
So it's the measurable status of Jehovah and Jesus that we are really discussing, not if the word God, GOD, what have you applies, because that is irrelevant.
To me the society does not teach us the true relationship between Jehovah and Jesus, and the role being given to Christ. The WT wants to down play Jesus role to separate themselves from the Trinity. Fine but they've also lost sight of how much is given to Christ Jesus by his Father as well.
No scripture doesn't call Jesus Almighty, but it does describe him as the most powerful, mighty God over all things other then his Father.
It could just be me, but this isn't the way the society teaches us, and seems to me would bring in a lot more people from Christendom...
The two witnesses..whoever they may be or represent ...messages are yet to come are they not....are you not presuming to know what that will be....I know you think they are two individuals...I tend not to think that but I really don t know...
As far as this little g and capitol G..in my bible that the society has printed Jesus is always refer to as Mighty God.....with the capital...so I do t understand your argument with that one ..
The society or any JW that I know do not alienate any Trinimatarian believer from Gods word or Truth.....we have many very strong trinitariams or former trinitariams amongst us.....so I don't get that point you have made either...???......we are known as a people to fulfill 1 Corinthians 19-23..... that's what we are all about ..Jesus preached to every one.
So we do not aliemtate billions of trinitarians in The time of the end.....where are you getting this idea from?
You say the two witnesses message should be?????
How do you know what that message should be....do you think you are one of the two witnesses?
Are you also not acting presumptuously as you accuse the society of....I am speaking to you with a mild and soft tone...but you cannot hear my gentle manner...
There cannot be unity Josh...it's why he will destroy BTG.....
Yes Paul's words are one of searching out and finding many..but you are neglecting to note that of his balancing those words with the following verses I shall post....
2 Corinthians 10:13 ..for such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising g themselves as apostles of Christ and no wonder for Satan himself as an angel of light it is therefore nothing extraordinary if his ministers also,keep disguising themselves as ministers of righteousness but their end will be according to their works..
You can work for unity as hard as you like my brother ...and it is a fine thing that all Jehovah's people do...but we cannot bring it....Jehovah and Jesus will ...but we keep trying I guess.....but there does come a time when one has to be firm..and say...no...what you are teaching is wrong and hurtful to other sheep...
As far as this discussion on Jesus..it all seems rather moot....as the society teaches Jesus is. A mighty God..and since I have been one and I think? ... The truth always has ( 38 years ) ...I beleive they have him in his rightful place as described by the scriptures ....they acknowledge he is now worshipped by other angels...and tho a Mighty God and therefore worshipped by angels and even us...he is not equal to the Almighty God....so how is the society wrong in what they teach??
In a way I don't even get what this discussion has been about...I don't see any half way belief that you spoke of....so I will go by what I read from the scriptures...
I'm Sure WHEN Jesus himself returns or the two witnesses this will be made clear...and not before...
2 Cor 11 :3 ..but I am concerned that somehow as the serpent deceived Eve by its cunning your minds might be come corrupted away from the sincerity and the chastity that are due the Christ .
For as it is if some one comes and preaches a Jesus other than the one we preached or you receive a spirit other than what you received or good news other than what you accepted YOU EASILY PUT UP WITH HIM...
It's what happens when we have a conversation...it elvoves..lol...sorry if it was me...and I think it was me asking Josh about his Trinity question....
I read that link it was fine to read...but ..I see no error in the way we have been taught on how we look at Jesus...and his new station and prominence in heaven...I can see no grounds for thinking there is a halfway mark between the trinity and what we teach.....
Well josh I think I was the guilty one with the diversion of the thread .....but what you just said about Jesus is correct...and the Society does to my knowledge teach just that....I've never understood it any other way...and nor have an witnesses I've associated with and still associate with beleive any differently than what you have just described.....now I'll shut up..
I was talking about the true time of the end, yet still future... I do not believe we are currently in the time of the end, hence the whole 1914 error. I simply no longer believe that is a survival issue, in of itself. It's the heart Jehovah is concerned with, not our level of knowledge.
What I'm saying is, once Jesus begins ruling on earth, he will be equal to Jehovah, as far as mankind is concerned. You see, it appears he is currently equal to Jehovah as far as angels are concerned, THEY WORSHIP HIM. They bow down to him, Jehovah demands exclusive devotion, but yet angels worship him. Stop and think about that... And one day when he begins ruling here, no doubt all mankind will do the same, making Jesus equal to Jehovah in every way as far as all creation is concerned. The only way he will not be is because Jehovah is his God. According to scripture that seems to be the only difference at that point between them, Jehovah will be the only thing not subject to Jesus, Jehovah will not worship Jesus, but that is the only thing...
It's a bit like my business I work for, we have an owner and a General Manager. I never speak to the owner, only the GM does, I answer to the GM. As far as I'm concerned the GM is in charge, and he's the one I go too, and out of 250 employees only one goes to the owner, and that's the GM. Jesus is the GM and Jehovah the owner. (So will be the case when Jesus begins ruling on earth)
Most of all of this relies on chronology. Jesus began ruling in heaven when he came to this world, and he will rule this world when he returns. He is worshiped by angels now, and I'm guessing (probably correctly) he will be worshiped by man during the 1000 years.
So you see, in fact Jesus of the Bible does clearly seem to fall in between the JW idea of him and the Trinity. JW's have taught only Jehovah will ever be worshiped, because we will always consider Jesus inferior to Jehovah, but that's not what Jehovah gives him, Jehovah gives him his throne, the very nature of what it is to be the Almighty, as it pertains to everything in creation except himself, the Father. Everything, and I do mean everything will be made subject to Christ, everything except one, his Father.
What I'm doing is restoring Jesus's rightful GOD given position by Jehovah, first in heaven as ruler, then still yet future on earth.
"Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." Mth 6:10
In reality if 1914 were correct we should already be worshiping Jesus, and not Jehovah, because that is what happen when he began ruling in heaven! However, he is not ruling on earth yet.
I've been a Witnesses for 27 years, and trust me, I was devoted to the societies understandings, and I always struggled to understand Jesus's role, and I fought with that for years. It wasn't till this last year that I have finally started to understand the role Jesus is playing in Jehovah's plan, and what will be given him. I'm not the one that sits Jesus on the throne of GOD, Jehovah is...
But, as we all know Jesus was created and they are separate individuals, and the Trinity is a lie created in ancient Babylon, so don't get me wrong, I know where my faith lays...
I do, because Zech 3, 4 and 6, and as well the three days they are dead, only allow these two to be two individuals.
I believe the two witnesses are given their work when the end begins. Joshua is plucked out of the fire, and I believe that fire is the very same that comes down from heaven in Rev 13 by the second beast. That same fire of the trumpets that refine the 1/3 of Gods people as gold is refined. Joshua is not plucked from the fire until after the first trumpet.
These two have their own responsibilities before Jehovah, such as Joshua's responsibility of the seven spirits of God, and Zerubbabel's rebuilding of the new temple. These two are the olive trees that supply the lampstand in the Holy Place so that the oil lamp may light the area, and that light is understanding of Gods word, the word is the light. That light shines upon the 12 loaves, the 144k that are gathered back to our Lord for the wedding in the "true" time of the end.
These two were chosen before the founding of the world, before the birth of Cain and as part of the first prophecy in Gen;
Gen 3:15 "And I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your offspring and her offspring. He will crush your head, and you will strike him in the heel.”
Eph 1:4 "as he chose us to be in union with him before the founding of the world,"
We don't pick our calling, and we don't get to choose whether we serve Gods kingdom here on earth or in heaven, I know, I had to give up all I ever wanted, and except that I would not remain here on earth in order to continue to allow Jehovah to direct my steps, not myself.
With that said, you asked the question, so I'll answer it. Do I believe I am one of the two witnesses? I think it would be a lot easier to just cruise into the new kingdom and keep my head down, but I've also been in the position to give up what I wanted to show I am willing to do his will and not my own, so if he calls upon me to carry out that responsibility before him, then I would do the same thing I did before and except my responsibilities before him, but more then anything I look forward to being cleansed from my sin.....
Thank you for your reply Josh..and I really do wish you well...this journey is not an easy one...
I am looking at the posts here.
Accurate knowledge is what Jesus means when he says ,"You must worship with spirit and truth." J.:23,24
I believe the scriptures show without a doubt, Jesus is a god, and God of the universe, and always has been...since it's beginning.. He is God, but not the origin of everything, who is Jehovah God, the Almighty, the Father. They are NOT the same. One is Almighty, and created the other.
But Jesus , it clearly teaches in scripture, was GIVEN the gift of creation of the universe, and it is HIS because God gave it to him. Father GRANTED him this possession, then helped him create it. Jehovah himself is Jesus' God. (see Rev.3:12 where Jesus declares this)
Read John 1 and Col. 1:15-17
WT , those who PUKE out stupidity and baby-talk without having God's spirit and the accurate knowledge of it, minimize this truth.
Largely, they want you to follow them and their plans. doctrines...PROGRAM. They do not preach Jesus' teachings. They are glorifying themselves as the , 'Word of God'.
Read John 10....The JW sheep are following WT. ...not Jesus....his teachings...his voice.
Joshua is acutely aware of this now, whereas before he did not appreciate this truth to the same extent.
It is obvious to me he does not believe a trinity.
One said, "anyone who believes the lie of 1914 after the two witnesses disavowed it and Jesus returns, will die,"
This is utter nonsense.
I believe it, and I am quite familiar with Bible teachings. But I don't think this anywhere is a basis for destruction. You should really examine yourself before you start making judgments of who is going to die. I'm really wondering at your Christian maturity young man. Really!
We who post about God and LOVE,
should read these words often between about every 4 or 5 posts. Then we will be wise in our VIEWPOINT.
"Quit speaking against one another, brothers. He who speaks against a brother or judges his brother speaks against law and judges law. Now if you judge law, you are not a doer of law but a judge.
One there is that is lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and destroy. But you, who are you to be judging your neighbor?" Jas. 4:11,12
Now that goes for me, too. And I USED to say things like, "You can't believe in the trinity and be anointed heavenly heirs."
Now, I do not believe the trinity, in any way, shape, or form. I DO go to different churches every week to teach about the truth, and especially about God Jehovah, and his Son, and their relationship. But I also teach as much as I can about other subjects, too.
Although I'm firmly convinced in the '1914' time prophecy...I DON"T teach that at any church. Not necessary, or beneficial. These Christians are not privy to this. But in other truths, they are far above Witnesses , who are enslaved to WT doctrines that are not Jesus' teachings.
Will ALL Christians , 'go to Hell', then? As all traditional Christian religions , IMO , are off the mark seriously in one way or another.....and some very important matters....
Above all considerations, remember this cardinal teaching of Father and Son.
God (and this means Christ as God and Judge, too....) always.....first in importance.....without any doubt...
judges by what's in a person's HEART. 1 Chron. 28:9
The LAW James teaches us about here in the above verse, is this;
Always remind ourselves of these scriptures before making any 'final judgments' on any person's eternal resting place.
Sorry I am way off the original subject too. But will open a new topic.
When it is declared a false Prophecy by those inspired by Jehovah, those inquiring of the false prophecy will be just as guilty as the false prophet, and according to 2 Thessalonians 2, they are thrown where the weeping and gnashing of the teeth will be. Ezekiel 13,14.
When the inspired of Jehovah appear, and you accept it is false and move on from it, you will be righteous, per 2 Thessalonians 2.
It will be as in the days of Jesus, there will be followers of the true religion who will not accept the truth in order that they may be saved, the modern day Jews. 2 Thessalonians 2.
Why else would the scripture say they are allowed to believe the lie? What lie? The one mentioned in the same chapter concerning the presence of Jesus and Jehovah's day being here.
In my opinion, much of what we are discussing here has allot to do with chronology. When something happens, is just as important as what happens, for that will tell you the players involved.
Let's say for example that the MOL is not in the WT, but in fact comes after the WT is no more? Let me explain it another way, what if the WT is the constant feature, and once it's removed the two witnesses begin their work. Let's say the MOL infiltrates the new spiritual temple these two rebuild deep in the time of the end? That would mean the MOL turns against the two witnesses just like Judas did with Jesus, bringing about their deaths, and fulfilling how he will be done away with by the day of Jehovah.
Keep in mind once the day of Jehovah begins, Armageddon begins, however there are years of events before hand.
Hi dear sister Thinking,
The noun God is a title, not a proper name, which is why God Almighty chose as a (proper) name Jehovah, Yahweh, YHWH.
Besides, contrary to what many believe erroneously, the level of knowledge required for the anointed ones isn't the same as the one required for the rest of mankind, the GC from Christendom and the JWs included.
The Bible makes it clear that even many wicked ones would bend the knee and unwillingly surrender to Jesus, even after Armageddon...
Whatever happens, who ever claims Jesus is present is a fraud. Because Jesus will only manifest himself to remove the mol.
Yes, while the message of the Two Witnesses will no doubt be inline with his command to go by two, preaching the kingdom. Their message would most likely include the "kingdom is coming", and that Christ presence at the day of Jehovah is coming, not that it "has" come yet. It appears that the MOL within their midst will be spreading the lie that he has already come. Not unlike we have going on now in the WT, it can be seen as a dual fulfillment.
This is when some will boast; “Where is this promised presence of his?"
I don’t know what’s going on here, with the subject matter flying all over the place, in all directions.
Is Jesus God? It depends on which God you are talking about. The way it is presented is about Jesus being God Almighty. That answer is NO!
“For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many ‘gods’ and many ‘lords,’ there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.” (1 Co 8:5-6 NWT)
The one God being spoken of is the father of Jesus, Jehovah God. The one lord is Jesus Christ. Their roles are given, by Paul, in the later verses of this letter to the Corinthians.
“But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, ‘All things are put in subjection,’ it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.” ( 1 Co 15:20-28 NASB )
If the Son is also the Father (God), how and why is it necessary to subject himself to himself? This particular scripture explains that Jesus was present and working with His Father in the creation. All things created were made for the Son. At the end, Jesus presents the cleansed heavens and earth to His Father and God. Then, the Father hands them back to the Son, whom it was intended for in the beginning.
Separate names with a comma.