Hi Thinking Wasn't it Jeremiah who said that he wasn't go to speak about Jehovah anymore?......But he couldn't do it, because it burned him up inside. Don't be too quiet for too long.
In the Bible, Jehovah God is said to fulfill his grand purpose to redeem mankind through Israel, which typifies Him, or is typified as his son or as a bride to Him. In the NT, we learn that said grand purpose is accomplished by Jesus and that the relationship that once was foretold between Jehovah God and Israel is in fact between Jesus and his anointed brothers, the Israel of God. Jesus being of course Israel and his brothers, his bride and future wife, his own flesh. The Bible and even Jesus himself say on numerous occasions that all authority has been given to him and that he'll be made second to Jehovah only (please see Mat. 28:18; John 17:2; 1 Cor.15:27-28; Phil. 2:9-11; etc.) Jesus being given the position, authority, glory and power to accomplish God's purpose, being even made immortal; this means that Jehovah will make Jesus a "God", so to speak, or will make him to be "God-like" as I prefer to say it for the sake of sensitive consciences. Jesus was never God, Jehovah God; never was and never will. By then, Jesus won't be God by nature but by function. He won't be equal to his Father by nature but somehow by function. This situation was foretold by what happened to Joseph as quoted in the following excerpt : "Pharʹaoh then said to Joseph: “Since God has caused you to know all of this, there is no one as discreet and wise as you. You will personally be over my house, and all my people will obey you implicitly. Only in my role as king will I be greater than you.” And Pharʹaoh added to Joseph: “See, I am putting you over all the land of Egypt.” Then Pharʹaoh removed his signet ring from his own hand and put it on Joseph’s hand and clothed him with garments of fine linen and placed a necklace of gold around his neck. Moreover, he had him ride in the second chariot of honor that he had, and they would call out ahead of him, “A·vrékh!” Thus he put him over all the land of Egypt. Pharʹaoh further said to Joseph: “I am Pharʹaoh, but without your authorization, no man may do a single thing in all the land of Egypt." Robert wrote a very interesting commentary about it a few years ago. I ignore if it's still online. I've looked for it this afternoon but couldn't find it. I hope it helps....
The resurrected person known as Jesus Christ now has life within himself. Prior to that time, He had to rely on the life force from His Father, Jehovah God, just as everything that has the breath of life recieves it from Jehovah God. “For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;” ( John 5:26 NASB ) “For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself.” ( John 5:26 NWT ) “For as the Father has life in himself, so has he given to the Son also to have life in himself.” ( John 5:26 Codex Sinaiticus ) This life force is the “life” that the new King will give to his anointed co-rulers in the new Kingdom of the Heavens. “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.” ( John 5:24 NASB ) “Verily, verily, I say to you, that he that hears my word and believes on him that sent me has life eternal, and comes not into condemnation, but has passed out of death into life.” ( John 5:26 Codex Sinaiticus )
Edit: for some reason, I only saw page #1 before responding LOL ... this is probably just a repeat after missing 3 pages, but I'll leave it I actually agree with Joshua (I think), here is where I believe he is going, please correct me if I'm wrong though bro. - Jesus is God by way of "role", as currently, he sits on Jehovah's throne and judges mankind and angels; for all intents and purposes, he is our God. Through him we have life, without him we have death. - Jehovah is God, the Father of all, for eternity; he has temporarily ceded his throne to his Son in order to reconcile all of creation back to himself Jesus is not ONTOLOGICALLY Jehovah, but he is ontologically God by-way of his position, creator, judge and savior. After the 1000 years Jesus steps down from the position of God and "gives the kingdom" to his God and the Eternal Father, Jehovah. "so that God (Jehovah) may be all things to everyone" - 1 Cor 15 As Jehovah's Witnesses, our counter-response to the trinity has obfuscated this fact. (And the governing body seems intent on inserting themselves into that position.) Thomas called Jesus God, and not "a god", but the primary, not as some covert way of calling Jesus Jehovah, but as a demonstration of the above reasoning. (namely, Jesus sits on Jehovah's throne [the 'right-hand', as the implementer] as God to mankind) It is not small thing to sit on the throne of God. "But about the Son, he says: “God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness." - Hebrews 1:8 "For just as the Father raises the dead up and makes them alive, so the Son also makes alive whomever he wants to. For the Father judges no one at all, but he has entrusted all the judging to the Son, so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father." - John 5:21-23 Jehovah is quite literally the most humble being in the universe. And he has given his position as God to his Son, until a future time.
I wrote the same above in different ways but not so beautifully written... As for the context and the reason why of this thread, let's say that they both amount to : Tomorrow is another day....
Sis Thinking, perhaps this is something that is stronger here in the States. By my experience in our congregation, through my own Bible Study experience and discussions and going in service with my brothers and sisters, I understand what Joshua is saying here. My understanding is that belief in the Trinity, according to most in our congregation, would indeed keep someone from being able to survive Armageddon. Perhaps I am wrong, but it is a topic I'm very interested in so I feel I've paid careful attention. When you say you have many strong Trinitarians amongst you, are you saying that in your region there are JW's who accept the truth yet continue to hold to the Trinitarian belief? That is what it sounds as if you're saying. That would not fly in my area so far as I understand... I'm reading through this all now, so apologies if this was asked or clarified and I haven't gotten there yet.
^^^ This.... Wholeheartedly agree. Just my own opinion, not in response to anything in particular, but... I think that where the Trinity belief becomes dangerous is that many Trinitarians I know have become so 100% focused on JESUS that they are missing a lot of important instruction that comes from Jehovah. I have several friends and family members with whom I discuss this from time to time, and it seems to me that the focus on Jesus' forgiveness makes people all too ready to continue their lives as-is, accepting the forgiveness but not understanding the standards that Jehovah set for us once we've accepted our salvation. Not that it is easy as I fail every day, but... One example... I have a friend who refers to herself as a "cursing Christian." She has a learning disability and ADD (like me!) and it is very difficult for her to study the scriptures deeply. We once did have an in-depth discussion and it caused her to have an anxiety attack afterwards (how badly did I feel!!!). However, the YouTube pastors and mega-churches have taught her enough that she wants to love Jesus and accept his forgiveness. When she and I talked about the Trinity she said she sees where my belief comes from and it makes sense to her, and that the mystery of the Trinity doesn't really make sense to her- but does she understand either side? I don't think she does. I don't think she really understands the Trinity OR the true relationship between Jehovah and Jesus, or either of their roles, in any real detail. That's where I agree with Joshua, as he stated earlier that we all have differing abilities to understand. I agree with him that in the end, our faith and decision to follow Jesus (and of course Jehovah as we well know) will be our salvation. Regarding John 17:3, if someone comes to know the personalities and standards of Jehovah and of Jesus through scriptural study, yet they are confused about the exact nature of their relationship to one another, can we say they do not know enough? I do not think we can judge that quite yet... In the meantime, the focus of Trinitarians on Jesus (in my experience/understanding) allows them to disregard the specifics and requirements of Jehovah's standards and allows them to go on being part of the world, believing that they are separated because they speak Jesus' name. This I find to be potentially very harmful. I believe many of them have a true heart and true desire to please Jesus, and when the end does occur I believe it will be in a way that allows them to properly exercise their genuine heart condition regardless of what they've been taught about Jesus and Jehovah thus far. I could be wrong, but I know too many Trinitarians who truly love God and praise and follow Jesus to believe that the Trinity is enough to turn him away from them in the end. We shall all see, huh? No matter what, we can be assured that what Jehovah wills will be done and it will be the best outcome for all of us.
I'm only replying here as I am your friend and I hate to think you believe I have said this....we have many who were former tinitarians. But they abadoned that belief and worshiped Jehovah with the correct understanding of Jesus in relation to Jehovah. There is no witness who holds fast to the trinity belief. Not here or any where in the world.,,,,how can that ever be, What josh has said is what I have always been taught and we all believed anyway......if the society taught Jesus as a little ,g ...it was many many years ago... they have corrected it...many years ago......my argument is and was.....if any one still stands by their tinitarian beleif...and do not humble their knee to acknowledge ,Jesus and his rightful place ....then I can see no scriptural proof they will pass thru the fire and survive...into the new system.....for goodness sake..at some stage one has to stand up and say this is dangerous teachings and thoughts.....and yes I know it is what Utuna and josh believe this.....and they are admins on the forum.....but I definitely do not believe their thoughts are in line with scripture . We all here have a responsibility to others that lurk on this site....I personally take that very seriously....so no sis...you have misunderstood my words....sorry if I wrote poorly...I'll email you okay..but I had to publicly reply as I did not want anyone to think I thought such a thing
Boy, I wish everyone agreed on all scriptures here, but do we really think that will happen before the end? I would sure like to know how everything I said was what you were always taught, but yet what Utuna and I have presented is not inline with scripture? I don't know what specifically you are referring too, can you point it out specifically? By all means, present scriptural references to correct our false understandings, if you kindly would?
I'm sorry, but I have no idea what your talking about. You seem to be the only one in this thread that disagrees with what is presented, so we look forward to your scriptural rebuttal...
HUH. ..you have presented nothing about Jesus that I didn't already know ....and fully agree with....I agree with everything that has been written on this thread concerning Jesus...I DONT disagree with anything that has been presented about Jesus.... You are baiting me Josh. ..and I won't fall for it.. Message bible 2 Timothy 14-18 ...repeat these basic essentials to gods people. Warn them before God against pious nit picking WHICH CHIPS AWAY AT THE FAITH . It just wears everyone out ...
Hello all brothers and sisters. You may find this interesting; I am presently attending a small-in-membership church around the corner from my home. I went there about 9 months ago, and when in the middle of my separation , and divorce in January. These southern U.S. baptist Mississippians are very loyal to; Family, church, and the state/country. They have a flag of the U.S. in the corner of the stage. I gave the preacher there a lot of argumentation on Trinity a couple months ago, at one Sunday night service, and he got very mad. Well, about a month ago, he said he was leaving this church, and he would give them a month to find another Pastor. So, I felt bad about this, as I wondered if I had something to do with it(?) And I could tell some in the church were cool to me after that, as to them, I was very disrespectful. The new pastor came and gave some excellent talks about his belief, history, and family , as he is a third-generation preacher. He is one of the most well-versed speakers I have ever heard, and one of the most ardent and sincere lovers of Jesus, and God's word. I went to a prophecy of Daniel talk last night at the church, and I thought it was my last time to attend. Why? In the study guide book regularly scheduled, which I thought we were to study, it said this: "God created people to live in community. God Himself is a Trinity of three persons; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This means God lived in perfect communion with Himself before time began." "God, therefore was not alone before He created man. He did however create people to be social beings. We were created in God's image, and, therefore, we should desire to live in community with our families and our fellow man. God said, " It is not good for the man to be alone.(Gen. 2:18) The animals God created could not fulfill Adam's need for companionship because God did not infuse a soul in them as he did in man. So God created a woman for Adam- someone to complement him- someone who also bore the divine fingerprint." And then the article in the monthly study guide discussed the oneness of the marital union, and sacredness of it, and why we should vow a promise of faithfulness, and how breaking the marital bond (without GOOD reason) is an unnatural act, and should not be taken lightly.(divorce) At the end of this section, it summarizes; "The notion that I do what is in my own best interest is a lie from the lips of Satan himself. [ divorce because one doesn't love or want to be married to this person on trivial grounds] God wants his creatures to live in community as an example of his own perfect triune existence." I was very offended by this sneaky-new approach to brainwashing the sheep to keep them locked on trinity, and was not going to go to the service. But I said to myself, 'Well, I have to go, and explain why I cannot come listen to trinity teachings, so I went.' As it turned out, we weren't going into the book, but he was going to start a chapter by chapter explanation of daniel and Revelation after that through the following weeks. He loves these books, and could as far as I could tell, just about start at the beginning and quote almost all Daniel verbatim! No kidding. So he gave a lecture on why the Israelites were punished, 70 years of Sabbaths, Israel's sacrificing babies to Molech under Hezekiah's son Manasseh's reign, and on and on, with details, dates, the differences between the 1st invasion and Babylonian conquest and capture of Zedekiah , and the princes, including Daniel and the three Hebrews, which he placed at 605 b.c., and the total exit of all the kingdom of Judah in 589 b.c. He went on to discuss the 7 times of the Gentiles, and turned to Luke 21:24, and read Jesus' words, which he said would have fulfillment on the Israelites later.(modern Jews) While talking about these things, he explained the Jews were worshiping, "Jehovah God". I could tell this stirred the group, because this was the argument I had in front of the group a couple months back, with the old preacher , who stood on this; 'Jehovah is just another name for Jesus!' (in that tone, and the parishioners afterward told me the same...and that is what I think trinity is being touted as in most all the Baptist churches today...not even trinity anymore, but one God; manifested in three different forms, and can be in both or all three forms at the same time.) Of course that is demonic, false, and damaging to the truth. But, here I am, still going to go back, and work on this 'slip' he made of mentioning 'Jehovah God'. It is not easy to know when to sit in silence, and when to try to define the truth/fight the lie. People were in rapt attention, and taking notes as he wrote on a white-board, scriptures, dates, etc. This is my ministry also. It is tough. And I never know going into any church what to expect, where to chime up, or just enjoy the company of Christians learning and worshiping God and Jesus. When I witness, it is to a whole group, and we are sitting in their church in air conditioned comfort, sometimes while eating a lunch, or sitting around discussing the Bible after the sermon. So, strides and questions , surely are at work in their minds from my visits, but sometimes they are disagreeable. But, they still want me to be a part of the worship, and their church, still welcome me back, even though these discussions get very animated, and have offended them. How does this sound to you? Weird, huh? In a way, its good, but in a way, I feel I am compromising. I also have neighbors who come over and study here at my house and I teach them the truth as we here know it. The state of church, trinity, and Hell, Soul, etc, is never going to change by our preaching, I don't believe....as I am now going right into the churches, and so far have nothing to show for my efforts , on trinity anyways. I believe it will have to be Christ himself who clears this up....but I DON'T see him killing these good people off at Armageddon. They are dreading the future fulfillment of the Christian tribulation from Satan's forces, and they see the Islamic tide coming this way, and are knowing Christianity will lose the battle for 'truth' until Christ returns. What do you think about this, anyone?
Aaaah..so you did go back on the thread ..... These are your words at the beginning of the thread...I don't know how to put them In The block form so have copied and posted them Your words below : .//. So that even the belief in the trinity may not keep someone from surviving into the new world.// You have no scriptures to back up this opinion or belief....and I stand by my words....it is a dangerous and misleading statement ...I can find Utunas words that backed this thought if you like...or you can just go find it yourself.... What next Josh...what other new understanding will you have....so do I disagree with this statement....absolutely ....and if I'm the only one as you stated.....I don't care....at some stage one must draw a line in the sand and not cross it... I beleive you making that private assumption and Utuna backing you...you both crossed that line... In fact you are going beyond the things written . As far as what has been said on this thread about Jesus and his standing and new position ..as I said...I beleive and support all that has been quoted... Sorry Utuna..I love you dearly.. but I have to stand by my heart felt convictions...