Israel

Discussion in 'Bible Prophecy' started by Joshuastone7, Nov 17, 2020.

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    Joshuastone7

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    Israel, physical or metaphor?

    Zionism is the common belief that in our current age the physical nation of Israel is represented in prophecy. Supersessionism also called replacement theology holds that Israel throughout prophecy in our day represents the collective worldwide whole of all true believers. Which is true?

    The Apostle Paul had something to say on this matter;

    "For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision something on the outside, on the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit and not by a written code." Rom 2:28,29

    "But now apart from law God’s righteousness has been revealed, as the Law and the Prophets bear witness, yes, God’s righteousness through the faith in Jesus Christ, for all those having faith. For there is no distinction." Rom 3:21,22

    If after God's righteousness through faith in Christ revealed there is no distinction between the physical jew and greek, when did this moment occur?

    Well, during our Lord's ministry he directed his disciples to go only to the house of Israel in order to preach the new covenant and to not go out to the nations.

    "These 12 Jesus sent out, giving them these instructions: “Do not go off into the road of the nations, and do not enter any Sa·marʹi·tan city; but instead, go continually to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Mth 10:5,6

    So when were the peoples of the nations gathered into the new covenant? We know this happed when Cornelius the Centurion and his family were baptized by Peter, fulfilling one of the keys given him by our Lord Christ Jesus.

    "But he (Peter) became very hungry and wanted to eat. While they were preparing the meal, he fell into a trance and saw heaven opened and something descending like a great linen sheet being let down by its four corners on the earth; and in it were all sorts of four-footed animals and reptiles of the earth and birds of heaven. Then a voice said to him: “Get up, Peter, slaughter* and eat!” But Peter said: “Not at all, Lord, because I have never eaten anything defiled and unclean.” And the voice spoke again to him, the second time: “Stop calling defiled the things God has cleansed.” This happened a third time, and immediately it was taken up into heaven." Rom 10:10-16

    Interestingly this event was in fulfillment of prophecy from the book of Daniel. Cornelius was baptized approximately three and a half years after our Lord was baptized and is in my summation the fulfillment of the end of the 70th week of Dan 9 from Israel's captivity unto Babylon. (More on that later)

    Seventy weeks of years were given Israel under the old covenant before the establishment of the new under Christ Jesus.

    "There are 70 weeks that have been determined for your people and your holy city, in order to terminate the transgression, to finish off sin, to make atonement for error, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up the vision and the prophecy, and to anoint the Holy of Holies." Dan 9:24

    Sometime after the 69th week, we are told the Messiah will be cut off.

    "And after the 62 weeks, Mes·siʹah will be cut off, with nothing for himself." Dan 9:26

    What happens during that seventieth week? The covenant that was promised to Israel to enter God's kingdom was put in place for the "many" (a term denoting the Jews themselves) for one week of years.

    "And he will keep the covenant in force for the many for one week" Dan 9:27

    Once our Lord Christ Jesus was baptized, the good news of the kingdom was preached all throughout the house of Israel inviting the Jewish nation into this new covenant under Christ.

    At the half of that seventieth-week gift offerings ceased. This was the moment our Lord was "cut off" and gave his perfect life a sacrifice for all believers. The offerings that ceased were those at the temple when the sacrifices of bulls and sheep were no longer needed.

    "and at the half of the week, he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease." Dan 9:27b

    Since that covenant for a kingdom was held in place for the "many" (Jews) for seven years, once that seventieth week ended, the nations were invited into that covenant once Cornelious was baptized.

    ------------

    The start of the seventieth week was seen the moment our Lord was baptized by John in the Jordan River.

    "You should know and understand that from the issuing of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Mes·siʹahm the Leader, there will be 7 weeks, also 62 weeks." Dan 9:25

    At the half of that week, our Lord was cut off at his sacrifice ending the sacrifices and gift offerings at the temple. Ending their necessity and validity before Jehovah.

    The covenant for the established kingdom of God was in place for the Jewish nation as our Lord and his disciples preached that kingdom news unto the house of Israel alone until the end of that seventieth week in fulfillment of the sheet before Peter once the nations were to be gathered in once Cornelious was baptized. It was at that point a Jew was no longer one of descent, but one of heart. And by extension, Israel of prophecy in our day concerns itself with only the worldwide collection of true believers and not a plot of land on the globe.

    All these matters are of course of my own belief structure as I hope you may find some points of interest within.

    All love...
     
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    Tsaphah Experienced Member

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    Yes, this makes sense to me. Otherwise, why would Jehovah allow the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple? The nation of Israel became known as Ashkenazi or Ashkenazim Jews. They could not trace their heritage to any of the twelve tribes. There were no priests, because all of their records were destroyed by the Roman Army in the year 66. None of the nation of Israel could trace their tribal history. So, they all were classified as "Jews", or Judem, by the Romans and other nations. They still carried forth there synagogues; meeting places of worship. But; no high priests or priests in general.
     
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    Agreed brother... I believe we've had this conversation before. No one could ever trace their heritage back 2000 years. The math makes that impossible...

    All love...
     
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    Tsaphah Experienced Member

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    Hey Brother,
    I had a friend that said she could trace her family all the way back to Adam and Eve. She paid a genealogist to do the DNA.
    It took me a while ( two years ) to figure it out! And, you don't need a genealogist to do it! We read the Bible and find out
    we all come from Adam and Eve!!:eek::rolleyes::) We just can't find the paperwork.
     
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    lol...
     
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    Does that make the claim invalid? I am not a proponent of Replacement Theology, there are promises that our Heavenly Father made the Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and their descendants that cannot be fulfilled in any other group or individuals. God cannot lie. Now some would say 'He hasn't lied, he has kept his promises to Israel, he only altered who or what Israel is so that those promises can be fulfilled'. BUT ... keep in mind what He says in Psalms 89:34 "My covenant will I not break, Nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips." Jehovah made a covenant, he cannot break it, and Replacement Theology is an alteration.

    RR
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    When discussing family trees, each generation one looks back, the number of descendants double. Using an average of a generation amounting to 30 years, if one counts their genealogy back to the year 70ce, we discover that we would have 20 quintillion ancestors. That is a 20 with 18 zeros behind it. Now obviously there were not that many people alive in the first century. In fact, there were probably only around 200 million living at the time. Therefore the number of duplicate names and family overlaps is astronomical.

    Said another way, most likely every single person on earth is a Jew by genealogy and there is no way of knowing what a genetic Jew is today. After all Tit 3:9 says; "But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies."


    I believe Jehovah has already fulfilled his covenant for a kingdom to the physical Jew, and physical Israel from the moment Jesus was baptized until Cornelious was baptized. (7 years) This I believe was the covenant held in place for the "many" (Israel) for the one week. (Dan 9:27) At which point Israel and a Jew became a metaphor once Cornelius became a Jew of the heart.

    "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. As you go, proclaim this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near." Mth 10:5-7

    I believe Jehovah fulfilled his covenant for a kingdom unto physical Israel 2000 years ago, and there is no such thing as a physical Jew today.

    But, that's just my 2 cents on the matter... ;)

    AJ
     
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    Are you saying then, there are no Jews in existence today? That the 6 million who perished during the holocaust were not physical Jews? I'm trying to understand your comment.

    RR
     
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    Ultimately I am saying there is no such thing as a genetic Biblical Jew today, as there was pre-Messiah.

    As well there is no such thing as a prophetic physical Jew today. Just because a group of people call themselves Jewish, that does not mean they haven't had 2000 years of genetic diversion. In 70ce the remaining Jews spread out to all other nations. As well, just because a people call themselves physical Jews does not mean prophecy is talking about them. There isn't a single person on earth that can trace their DNA nor genealogy back to a single Jew 2000 years ago.

    So no, no physical Jew as there was 2000 years ago, and no physical Jew in prophecy. It is my opinion the only Jew on earth today left over from 2000 years ago are those who are Jews of the heart. (Romans 2)

    In my opinion...
     
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    But Jehovah knows.

    Consider that even up to Jesus day, the Jews were not 100% ethnic. They mingled with the pagans and heathen, marrying their daughters.

    Consider also that the "ancient worthies" mentioned in Hebrews 11 will be the Kings over the earth. They will be resurrected first as earthly representatives of the Heavenly Kingdom and usher in the reign of Christ. Unless of course you believe differently, that Jesus returns physically and rules from Jerusalem with his 144,000, then that's a whole other conversation.

    RR
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    I believe Dan 9 speaks of the covenant being inforced to the 'many' (Israel) from the moment Jesus was baptized until Cornelious was baptized. That Abrahamic covenant was for the kingdom Jesus taught. Hence why the message was only taken to the houses of the Israelites at that time.

    I believe Cornelious's baptism was in fulfillment of the sheet from heaven unto Peter. At which point a Jew became a metaphor. I don't believe any physical Hebrew lineage or otherwise genetic individual makes up Israel or Jew in prophecy after Cornelious's baptism. It is my understanding that prophecy after that pertains to a Jew of the heart, ones with faith.

    I do not believe any patriarch from the past will be resurrected during the 1000 year reign of Christ. I do not believe any faithful person from the past will be either. I believe only those who never had a chance to learn of 'truth' will be resurrected at that time; while the faithful from the past will be resurrected after the 1000 years are over and after the satan is destroyed.

    It is my understanding that those who rule during the 1000 years will be humans who are raised as angels to rule in heaven with Christ. Which would include some only after John the Baptist but not including him.
     
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    Any verses in Chapter 9 in particular?

    I believe that is true of the Church class, that the Jews lost out on, that is to be solely of the Royal Priesthood, but Jehovah made other covenants with them.

    Do you have scriptural support for your thoughts?

    Actually those humans are above the angels, they will be immortal like Jehovah and Jesus. So let me ask, you don't believe that there will be no earthly representatives on earth during the 1,000 year reign?
     
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    Dan 9:27 "And he will keep the covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week, he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease."

    Jesus held the Abrahamic covenant kingdom to the Israelites for seven years. This was the 70th week from their Babylonian captivity. At the half of that week, sacrifices ceased at the temple when our Lord became the one sacrifice for all. At the end of that week, Cornelious was baptized, no longer holding the covenant just for the many/Israelites.

    Yes, the scripture you feel shouldn't be there: (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ended.) If these are raised after the satan is destroyed they have nothing to prove. I believe the book of life is only opened after the 1000 years are over, meaning anyone written in that book is resurrected at that point. Meaning all patriarchs from the past will never see the 1000 year reign nor the enemies again...

    As well Jesus said from John forward the goal was heaven, meaning John will be raised to earth given he never had the opportunity to enter the new covenant with the Lord. Peter will be raised to heaven as part of the first resurrection to heaven at the beginning of the 1000 years, and John to earth after the 1000 years are over.

    I do not read in scripture humans will rule on earth. I believe there will be 144k who will rule with Christ in heaven, as the Witnesses believe. But Able, Moses and Elijah, etc will not be resurrected until after the 1000 years are over. The subjects of the new kingdom will be survivors of this world, those born into that world, and those from the past who need to learn of the true God... I do not believe every 'soul' will be resurrected. (As we've discussed)

    Greetings...
     
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    The determining factor, shows that the last week, the 70th, is particularly important, for it applies to Messiah and his crucifixion. “And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week [the 70th week].” In other words, the cutting off of Messiah was to occur somewhere in the 70th week. Verse 27 continues, “In the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease”; that is, in the midst of the 70th week, certain types in the Law pertaining to Messiah were fulfilled. The types ceased because the antitype began there. Stated another way, as a general rule, the antitype usually begins when the type ceases. However, unless converted to Christ, the Jews are still under the obligations of the Law today except for what they cannot fulfill because there is no Temple. The Muslims presence on the Temple mount prevents the rebuilding of the Temple.

    [But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.] This is the first resurrection.
    The first sentence, in brackets, is spurious; it is not found in the Sinaitic manuscript. The next sentence, “This is the first resurrection,” is authentic. Even though earlier it was demonstrated that anyone who enters the age beyond the Millennium will not die anymore, being truly “children of the resurrection,” yet is this resultant condition to be understood as the “first resurrection”? The answer is obvious: no. The following sources, though not conclusive testimony, indicate “the” instead of “a” thousand years:
    Code ----- Document ----- Century
    C ----- Codex Ephraemi: Paris. ----- V
    95s ----- Syriac Codex Parham “17”: Mt. Athos. Scrivener Collation. ----- XII–XIII
    7----- Harleianus “5537” Ms.: London. ----- XI
    38s. ----- Codex Vaticanus “579.” Alford Recollation. ----- VIII?
    048 ----- Codex Vaticanus b. ----- VIII-X
    Q ----- Codex Basilanus: Rome. Tischendorf and Mai collations. ----- V-VI
    The Common Greek Text, Textus Receptus, et al.

    The code notation “s” (e silentio collatorum) signifies the reading does not rest on published testimony but was brought together and is based upon personal observation, private correspondence, etc. The Eastern Aramaic Text, according to George M. Lamsa (The Modern New Testament [Philadelphia: A. J. Holman Co., 1940]), renders the passage “these thousand years” (centuries V–VI).

    The following extract is of no little significance: “There is no indefinite article in the Greek. The use of it in translation is a matter of individual judgment [emphasis added]” (The Interlinear Greek-English New Testament, 2nd ed., Nestle Greek text translated by Alfred Marshall [London: Samuel Bagster and Sons Ltd., 1958], Introduction, p. ix).

    Also, the Greek text of the twenty-first edition of Eberhard Nestle’s Novum Testamentum Graece includes the definite article “[ta],” with the brackets, in the main body of the text (The Interlinear Greek-English New Testament [cited above], p. 1018). The brackets indicate that the present publishers.


    Well we can agree that John the Baptizer was indeed of the restitution class and that Peter is of the Little Flock. I don't believe that the Church is under the New Covenant. but that's a discussion for another time.

    During Old Testament times, in dealing with the Nation of Israel, he had his human representatives on earth speaking for him, leading his Chosen, Patriachs, Judges and Kings.

    Their resurrection will be due as the first amongst the world – the first of earthly nature to receive resurrection. The church will get her resurrection first, like her Lord, on the spirit plane, to the spirit nature, to the heavenly condition; then will come the other part of the salvation, the world's salvation; and the Ancient Worthies will be the first to get their blessing, and their resurrection on that plane; and that will be after the establishment of the kingdom, because it is that kingdom which is to bless the world and lift them up.

    RR
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2020
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    What is a Jew?
     
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    So what you're saying that because someone is not 100% of Jewish stock they are not Jewish? Was King David Jewish> his ancestor Ruth surely wasn't. She was a convert and as such counted as among them in David's lineage. Even in Old Testament times, many of the Israelites took for themselves wives from among the pagans/heathens and had children. Did Jehovah reject them?

    One of the easiest ways (in my mind at least), to demonstrate that there have been legitimate, DNA lineage Jewish (Hebrew), persons since 135 AD when Hadrian finalized the scattering to the four winds the people of Israel, is that there has always been a historically demonstrable group of Jewish practicing believers because they have been continually PERSECUTED and limited in their movements throughout the remnants of the Roman Empire. No one would endure such persecutions, the inquisitions and pogroms unless they really were descendants. The Nazi certainly did not have any problems identifying them! Who in their right mind would volunteer to go to the death camps unless they were Jewish?! 6,000,000 of them?

    Still another important question, what to do with ALL those promises that God made to the people of Israel. If you believe in replacement theology in what way has the spiritual Jew (the Church) fulfilled any of the unfulfilled promises made to Israel? Is God a liar? Can he take back what he has promises?

    RR
     
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    Greetings...

    Nope. I simply asked: "What is a Jew?"

    The fact that a Jew is one of the heart and not lineage according to Paul's own words, proves there is no such thing as a genetic Jew in prophecy after Cornelious.

    When Jehovah chose a people for his name they were a collected people in one location under his law. Was that not the Jewish nation of old? There is no such thing as a nation under his law today. Therefore, no such Jewish collective represented in prophecy. Jehovah allowed them to be utterly destroyed for their unfaithfulness, remember? Nothing has changed......

    The Jewish religion denies the Christ, and that in itself brings everlasting destruction. (I do not believe there will be some sudden revelation among Jews who will come to Christ in the end fulfilling prophecy, that's one of the most ridiculous notions of Scripture.)

    And if we are talking about genetics; Does .0001% of genetic Jewish heritage make one a Jew? The whole concept to me flies in the face of God's Word.

    "But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies." Tit 3:9

    "No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code."
    Rom 2:29

    I believe the spiritual Israel Jehovah’s promises are fulfilled through is still yet future and does not exist yet. I believe the new Israel will be collected together in the time of the end from all peoples and all nations.

    All love...
     
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    Also: Keep in mind, as I've said before, I believe the Abrahamic covenant was fulfilled at Christ's baptism.
     
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    Some things to consider ...
    1. The promise to Abraham that his seed after him would inherit the land would have no meaning if there were no longer any seed.\
    2. The number of prophecies which state Jews would be brought back into the land is large. How can they be brought into the land if they don’t exist?
    3. Contrary to your DNA claims, it was just a few years ago, a group of Africans who claimed to be descendants of the priestly tribe WERE found to have DNA evidence which links them back to that tribe — Aaron’s tribe -- and Levite DNA — the same DNA held by current Jews with names like Cohen. Consequently, they were readily accepted in Israel as legitimate. [links: https://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/Jewish-News/African-tribe-descended-from-Jews-DNA-tests-show
    4. In your reference to the 70CE diaspora, you seem to forget that THAT was the point! Jews WOULD BE dispersed, BUT WERE PROMISED to be returned. In Jesus’ famous (Luke) “Gentile Times” reference, he makes exactly that point.
    5. Let me ask how do you account for the historically-proven record that during the dispersion Jews were ISOLATED and hated all over the world and maintained their Law, their language, etc.?
    6. And just WHO do you think prophecy is talking about! It is a people to whom “blindness” is happened until the full number of Gentiles come in. Prophecy has NO REFERENCE to substitutes for Jews! It is all about Jews with whom God will make a New Covenant — SPECIFIED TO BE those whom He had led out of Egypt.
    RR
     
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    Can you give me a play by play on this belief of yours?

    Thanks

    RR
     

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