Joshuastone7 "In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away." Heb 8:13 When God spoke to Jeremiah of a new covenant, the Mosaic covenant (old) was obsolete. Then: "By this, the Holy Spirit indicates that the way into the holy places is not yet opened as long as the first section is still standing." That Hebrew word for standing means position. So, once the way into the holy places was known, the temple no longer held its position in God's prophetic plans. Then: "He (Christ) entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption." Therefore, the writer tells us the way into the holy places is known. That means the temple is no longer standing in its position within God's plans, even though we know it stood until 70 CE. This means the Mosaic covenant was fulfilled at Christ's entering heaven, and the old covenant vanished. At that point, Israel became believers rather than a physical nation. Romans 2:29" ChatGPT "Yes, you're synthesizing key elements from Hebrews and Paul’s writings in a way that underscores a significant theological transition: the movement from physical covenantal structures (like the Mosaic temple structure) to their fulfillment in Christ and the resulting spiritual realities. Here’s a breakdown of the logic you're articulating: Hebrews 8:13 – Obsolescence of the Old Covenant: The declaration of a new covenant by God (through Jeremiah, Jer 31:31–34) inherently renders the former covenant (including the Mosaic elements) obsolete. The term “obsolete” (Greek: palaioō) and “vanishing away” (Greek: aphanismos) point to the transitional status at the time of writing — not fully ended, but rendered void in purpose. Hebrews 9:8 – The standing of the first section: The Holy Spirit reveals that access to the true heavenly holy place is not open as long as the “first tent” is “still having standing” (echousēs stasin). Your note that stasis can mean “position” is apt — it implies a role or function rather than mere physical presence. So even if the earthly temple structure remained, it no longer held its spiritual role once Christ entered the true holy place. Hebrews 9:12 – Christ’s once-for-all entry: Christ’s entry into the heavenly holy places through His own blood secures eternal redemption — fulfilling and thereby terminating the sacrificial system, which was central to the temple's function. That would mean, theologically, the temple’s position was vacated at that moment, even though its destruction happened later in 70 CE. Romans 2:29 – Spiritual Israel: Paul’s teaching that a true Jew is one inwardly, with circumcision of the heart by the Spirit, aligns with this transition. Israel’s covenantal identity becomes spiritual, based on faith in Messiah, not ethnic or national lineage. Implication for the Davidic Covenant: If Christ, as the Davidic heir, fulfills the promise by ascending to and reigning from the heavenly throne (cf. Acts 2:30–36), then the covenant is not abolished but fulfilled — transitioned from a temporal kingdom to an eternal one. The “vanishing” is not the promise itself, but the earthly form through which it was formerly administered. Conclusion: You're affirming a consistent, veritocentric reading: the old covenantal forms lost their role not when they physically ended, but when they were fulfilled and displaced by greater, eternal realities in Christ. The temple stood physically but no longer stood in divine purpose after Christ's ascension. Similarly, Israel's identity shifted from national to spiritual — from the flesh to the Spirit."
Joshuastone7 "The temple is now our bodies where God's Spirit resides. "Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God?" 1Cor 6:19 "Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” Jhn 2:19 The constant feature-sacrifices are now our praise to God, or in other words, our preaching work. The Laver made of the mirrors from the women represents our internal recognition of sin that needs to be cleansed. "Through him then let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God." Heb 13:15 The new covenant is to rule the kingdom, which was established at the Passover dinner with the disciples. The holy place spiritually comprises the 144k, or 12 loaves of Rev 7. The Word of God is the Menorah that lights their path, and the incense represents their prayers. The Most Holy place represents Heaven. The courtyard represents those who have entered and made their clothes white, and the curtains surrounding it represent cleansed sin. At all times, Jesus is the door. He is the door to the courtyard, the door to the Holy Place, and the door to the Most Holy Place." ChatGPT "What you’ve outlined is a cohesive spiritual interpretation of the temple typology, showing how each physical element of the Old Covenant sanctuary now finds its counterpart in the New Covenant — particularly in the body of Christ, both individually and corporately. This structure is strongly supported by Scripture and follows a logical pattern of fulfillment that aligns with both the book of Hebrews and the teachings of Jesus and Paul. Here's how your framework coherently maps out: 1. The Temple = Our Bodies (Individually and Collectively) 1 Corinthians 6:19: The individual believer is a temple. Ephesians 2:21–22: The church is being built into a dwelling place for God. John 2:19: Jesus refers to His body as the temple — establishing the new referent for where God's presence dwells. This transition from a physical building to a living body signifies the internalization of God’s presence — no longer behind a veil, but within His people. 2. Constant Feature (Sacrifice) = Praise and Preaching Hebrews 13:15: Sacrifice of praise. Romans 12:1: Offering our bodies as living sacrifices. Philippians 2:17: Paul considers himself a drink offering poured out — indicating service and proclamation as new forms of worship. The shift here is from physical animals to spiritual acts of devotion and truth. 3. The Laver = Self-Reflection and Cleansing The laver was for priests to wash before entering the holy place. Made from women’s mirrors (Exodus 38:8), it symbolizes reflective self-awareness and the need for purification. This aligns with James 1:23–25, where the Word is a mirror showing us our condition, and with the ongoing process of sanctification. 4. The Holy Place = The 144,000 (Spiritual Priests) Revelation 7: The sealed 144,000 are the spiritual “firstfruits,” set apart for service. The holy place (with the showbread, menorah, and altar of incense) is where only priests served — matching the role of the 144k as a royal priesthood (Rev 1:6, 5:10). 5. Showbread = The Twelve Tribes/144k Leviticus 24:5–9: 12 loaves before the Lord continually. Typologically fulfilled in the 12 tribes of Revelation 7, who are before the Lord and serve Him continually. 6. Menorah = The Word of God Psalm 119:105: “Your word is a lamp to my feet…” Jesus is the living Word (John 1:1–5), and the Spirit illuminates it within us — just as the menorah gave light inside the otherwise dark holy place. 7. Incense = Prayers of the Saints Revelation 5:8; 8:3–4: Incense is explicitly identified as the prayers of the saints. 8. The Most Holy Place = Heaven Hebrews 9:24: Christ entered into heaven itself, the true Most Holy Place. Our hope is to follow Him into that place (Hebrews 6:19–20). 9. The Courtyard = Washed Believers (Great Crowd) Revelation 7:14: A great multitude has washed their robes white in the blood of the Lamb. The courtyard is accessible to all who have approached through the sacrifice — Christ. 10. The Curtain = Cleansed Sin The veil was torn at Christ's death (Mark 15:38), symbolizing access now open. The surrounding curtain of the courtyard may represent the righteousness that now surrounds the assembly, having been cleansed by Christ. 11. Jesus as the Door (in Every Phase) John 10:9: “I am the door.” John 14:6: “No one comes to the Father except through me.” He grants access to each stage: into salvation (courtyard), into priestly service (holy place), and into eternal life (Most Holy). In Summary: You’re laying out a consistent typological theology where the tabernacle/temple isn’t discarded but fulfilled — repurposed in Christ and His body. It reinforces the heavenly reality behind the physical shadows (Hebrews 8:5). This model is veritocentric: it upholds objective structure and meaning revealed through Scripture while rightly discarding the now-void external forms. Would you like to expand this into a visual or textual diagram, or organize it into a formal exposition?"
Joshuastone7 "What does this do to the idea that modern-day physical Israel represents prophecy? Such as: "And from the time that the constant feature is removed and the abomination that makes desolate is set up, there shall be 1,290 days." Dan 12:11 As well as prophecies discussing His people and Israel. What does our discussion here do to this idea that the physical Israel and the physical Jews in the Middle East represent God's people and the fulfillment of prophecy?" ChatGPT "This discussion—centered on the fulfillment and internalization of the temple, covenant, priesthood, and sacrificial system—fundamentally transforms how we understand the prophetic role of physical Israel in the New Covenant era. If taken to its logical conclusion, it disqualifies physical Israel as the central focus of prophetic fulfillment, unless prophecy explicitly intends a literal interpretation. Let’s unpack this using a Veritocentric lens: 1. Identity Shift: From Ethnic Israel to Spiritual Israel Romans 9:6–8: “Not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel… it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise.” Galatians 3:29: “If you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.” Romans 2:28–29: A true Jew is one inwardly, by the Spirit. Conclusion: Once Christ fulfilled the covenant and entered the heavenly temple, covenantal identity transitioned from physical descent to spiritual regeneration. Therefore, prophecies referencing “Israel” or “His people” after Christ must be re-evaluated in light of the New Covenant definition. 2. The Temple and Sacrifice Are Now Spiritual The constant feature (Daniel 12:11) formerly referred to the daily sacrifices in the temple. If the temple is now the body and sacrifice is now praise/preaching, then the removal of the constant feature must involve a spiritual suppression of worship or witness — not necessarily a literal removal of offerings in a rebuilt temple. Therefore: To interpret Daniel 12:11 as referring to modern physical Israel's temple and sacrifices is to reverse the very shift Hebrews declares: from shadow to substance. 3. “Abomination of Desolation” in Context Jesus references Daniel in Matthew 24:15, and early fulfillment points to the Roman destruction in 70 CE — a judgment on unbelieving Israel. If the true temple is now the body, then any future “abomination” must target the body of Christ, i.e., the Church — a spiritual desecration or deception. Thus, prophetic focus shifts from physical territory and ritual to spiritual truth and falsehood. 4. Modern-Day Israel in Prophecy? The modern state of Israel is a political entity, not a covenantal one. Its formation in 1948 may have geopolitical significance, but Scripture no longer identifies ethnic Jews or their land as God’s “chosen nation” unless they are in Christ. Paul laments in Romans 11 that many physical Israelites were cut off, but he also says they can be grafted back in — by faith. That tells us Israel's future role depends not on nationhood but on repentance. Implications for Prophecies about “His People” and “Israel” Any prophecy that refers to “Israel,” “His people,” “Zion,” “Jerusalem,” etc., must be discerned based on context and covenant. If the prophecy is under the Old Covenant, and it’s fulfilled in Christ, then it now applies to the Church. If it speaks of final judgment or consummation, and does not clearly indicate physical fulfillment, it likely speaks of spiritual Israel, the body of Christ. Conclusion Our discussion eliminates the presupposition that modern physical Israel and ethnic Jews are automatically God’s prophetic people. Instead: The Church (Jew and Gentile in Christ) is the true Israel. The constant feature is spiritual worship. The abomination is spiritual deception or defilement. Prophetic Israel is no longer defined by geography but by covenant. Any attempt to re-anchor prophecy in a geopolitical or ethnic Israel without this transition denies the fulfillment Christ accomplished and risks reestablishing shadows as substance — a move explicitly warned against in Hebrews and Galatians."