Well, Joshua, you can believe that if you want.

There are so many scriptures to read where Jesus teaches we will be one with him and his Father, inside him, and him inside us, and the Father too. This is through the Holy Spirit, which we haven't even begun to understand , define, or be able to dissect. John 17see also John 14: 20,21

I have been trying to explain this here for years now, and no one gets it, although you just have to read it in Bibles everywhere...except the NWT...since Franz the so-called translator...but he was a theft of Jesus' instructions....changed the wording: "in union with"...instead of , "in".

It's clear you do not understand, so I will stop arguing with you.

All readers; If you just follow Jesus' teachings, and his apostles, ...you do not need any religion to show you what the Bible means.

Read this; 1 John 2:24-27


24" So you must remain faithful to what you have been taught from the beginning. If you do, you will remain in fellowship with the Son and with the Father. 25 And in this fellowship we enjoy the eternal life he promised us.

26 I am writing these things to warn you about those who want to lead you astray. 27 But you have received the Holy Spirit,h]">[h] and he lives within you, so you don’t need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spiriti]">[i] teaches you everything you need to know, and what he teaches is true—it is not a lie. So just as he has taught you, remain in fellowship with Christ."

Anyone can pray to Father Jehovah, and talk to Jesus too. The Holy Spirit will come right inside you, and open your mind to understand the Lord Jesus' teachings, feelings , and his direction. You can become 'One' with God and the Son. And the Holy Spirit can be your best friend right here on earth, watching over you, teaching you, and directing you in ways of life and knowledge.

You really don't need a church at all to teach you, as the Bible above shows. But you need to READ the Bible and worship God and his Son. No church can do this for you.

Follow the Master, Christ. John 10

It was only after I realized WT was hiding these truths, and Christ came to me, and the spirit came through me, that I learned this. I resigned from Wt shortly after. And I have learned so many things, and have drawn so close to God and Christ, because I followed the scriptures, and put WT doctrines behind me. And if you read very far on this site, you will see ALL these who are still JW's and writing and commenting here, have been doing this themselves for years.

Why they are blasting me, after all the stuff they have said about WT doctrines...? These know what WT does, and they live with this intimidation, and have to watch their back constantly, in some cases. Very sad...John 9:34

Brother John S

 

Christian greetings, John S.

I have been absent from this board for quite a while, so I'm coming to this discussion rather blindly and will only be speaking in my behalf based on my current experience as a believer.

First, while it shouldn't matter, I am a former member of the Watchtower organization. I was pronounced disfellowshipped on the evening of July 6, 2005, on grounds of apostasy. TL;DR version? Unable to openly and candidly discuss some matters I felt were serious enough to approach the elders about in the first place, I had only two choices as I saw the dilemma: keep quiet and go crazy, questioning my sanity as to why I was the only one seeing the given problems -or- reach out to anyone who might be "out there" in those days of the world wide web. I also published open letters on my website, putting my observations out there for anyone, always inviting discussion. As is sometimes the case, discussions sometimes turned from ploughing the fields to hitting bedrock and the wise thing to do is stop ploughing or risk breaking the plow itself. On such occasions, it was always encouraged to set the particular matter aside for another time. Over time, even that bedrock will crumble.

Even during my judicial committee, there was a firm refusal to discuss the merits of what had been discussed by me online, something that would've indicated an interest in reasoning from the scriptures to restore me as a brother (from their perspective). At the end of the meeting, I thanked them for their time and told them in all sincerity that I look forward to the day when we (they and me) stood in the new system finding ourselves laughing at how silly and unnecessary all of this was.

That was 11 years ago, and I still feel the same. They, for their part, I can't imagine giving me the time of day. I'm an apostate, and that's pretty up there with the "unforgivable sin."

Let me wrap this up quick so I can get to your post below, and say that what follows are my own views, opinions, and conclusions based on a personal walk as a believer, and will not necessarily reflect those of the forum as a whole, nor always intersect with those of the Watchtower organization. Over the years, I've pressed ahead in my personal study in a pretty wide area of topics, and as a result my views have changed through the years yet continue to change as well.

I can't count the times I was dead-certain about something in the Bible, and some time later I'd read, hear, or have someone telling me something that forced me to reconsider my so-called dead-certainty and going Huh, that's a sound point or way of looking at such and so.

I've actually come to appreciate when I can pick up on something someone shares, a morsel of wisdom that I hadn't tasted up until then. It's like being introduced to a delicious new fruit or dessert.

Anyhow, enough about me. Let me respond to some things you said:

Unless I'm mistaken, you are wanting us readers to focus particularly on this part of the apostolic letter:

you don’t need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit teaches you everything you need to know...​

I'd like to think you would agree that when we place this in context to what the letter records, the writer had just been discussing those anti-christs who had already and were leaving the Way, no longer convinced that Jesus was the Christ— a perfectly expectable thing because the years since Jerusalem's destruction were beginning to add up and believers were beginning to doubt with the passing years. Maybe this Jesus had only been another false messiah, where was this promised presence of his?

We see the same situation even today among believers around the world. The "delay" has not gone unnoticed, and continues to test our faith and hope. Globally, faith is on the decline today as cultures openly and flagrantly reject our Father's standards of living continues in a mad race toward the end result of its desires. Just as the writer explains back in 1 John 2:17, this world is passing away, plain and simple.

The writer proceeds to discuss the anti-Christs, which centers on the matter of confession: the anti-Christs are those who deny Jesus is the Christ, and are those who "went out" or left the Way as I described above.

In this context, how do I understand what the writer is telling those early Christian believers? And what does the writer mean when he assures those same believers that our Father's spirit teaches them "everything [they/we] need to know"?

The first question is reasonably easy because it should call to mind Romans 8:16, where the apostle Paul wrote these words:

...it is that very Spirit bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God...
— Romans 8:16, NRSV​

We know in a way that surpasses our ability to put into words when we are living in harmony so that our Father's spirit can dwell within our living temple. That, for me, is our Father's spirit bearing witness that I am one of His children. I know this opens the door to debating over anointings and who is "spirit-anointed," but I hope it's set aside to keep on-topic here.

There are times, too, when we find ourselves in a predicament or situation and the next thing, we've been sustained through it by means of some sort of blessing from our Father, a blessing that reinvigorates our faith and tempers our endurance.

This "bearing witness" is how we come to realize and appreciate things having to do with our heavenly Father.

It's also the whisper that causes us to pick up on a point being made from a platform or a podcast or an article somewhere that opens the door to a whole new paradigm or way of looking at something from the scriptures.

There is also reason to believe that this "bearing witness" which the writer of 1 John speaks about has to do with their faith that Jesus was the Messiah, since the writer contrasts these ones with those who quit believing or fell away from the faith that Jesus was the Messiah. They knew in their hearts, and their hope was made more sure by the bearing witness of our Father's holy spirit within their earthen vessels.

Besides this "bearing witness," we must also acknowledge that our Father's holy spirit works on a need-to-know basis, teaching us everything we need to know. We can wear ourselves out studying, researching, discussing with others, but this has little to do with whether we need to know whatever it is we are pursuing. I've certainly experienced that plenty of times in my own walk as a believer, but I can't be the only one.

I'll respond first to your view or opinion that we, the readers, "don't need a church at all" to teach us, that all we need to do is "read the Bible and worship" —something no church can do for us.

If by "church" you mean a particular building for worship, then I agree with you. However, if by "church" you mean that we have no need to congregate with fellow believers to teach us, then I, in spite of the irony, stand in disagreement with you.

The world has an expression that "no man is an island," and this is especially true of the body of Christ composed of those who would be his disciples and ambassadors to the nations. Right from the beginning, our Father taught His people the sons and daughters of Abraham following their release from Egyptian bondage through assemblies. Jesus likewise attended the Temple to assemble with fellow believers, and time would fail me to mention the numerous examples through early Christianity where instruction was given through assemblages of followers of Jesus.

Too, when we congregate with others and open ourselves to being a worthy vessel in the hands of our Father to be a blessing to a brother or sister, we present ourselves at those times as a living sacrifice after the manner of our Great Teacher. This cannot happen outside of meeting together with other believers. Through these occasions, we are taught profound things like selflessness, grace-iousness, love, humility... lessons that must be experienced in order to be appreciated. For those who believe that Jesus came from heaven in a form of humility, to experience our humanity, he likewise personally experienced those painful lessons.

That's not even to mention the insight and wisdom found in another of the apostle Paul's letters, this one to the believers at Corinth:

It is also impossible for the eye to say to the hand, "I do not need you;" or again for the head to say to the feet, "I do not need you."
—1 Corinthians 12:21, WNT​

The fact is, we can learn from everything, right down to the industriousness of ants, if we allow ourselves to be receptive to what our Father wants to share with us to our benefit.

Respectfully submitted for your perusal,
~ Earthbound ~

 

Earthbound, you are part of the "CHURCH the BODY of CHRIST" we need you here, we are incomplete with out you,don't let your absent be prolong. Yours in Christ and may his LOVE be with you, Regent

 

Dear Earthbound,

I'm glad to see you back here, my dear brother. It's always a pleasure to stroll about and to especially do it off the eternally beaten tracks on spiritual grounds.

Please, don't worry about being snowed under at times because I'm sure that we're all in the same boat, more than we wish we were...

I like this sentence of yours : "we present ourselves at those times as a living sacrifice after the manner of our Great Teacher."

The physical death of something (animals being neutral in English) or someone being not required anymore.... Now, the sacrifices are living ones...

I'll develop my thoughts a bit later about yours. I have other ones to develop about John's.... first !

 

Are we not in very bad position here to try to guess if some one is a spiritual "WOLF" or not? Do we know one another very well? Can we see each others conduct in their daily living? The only thing that we have here for such a wild guess is a few words that are written in these post,yes sometimes we see differently than our brothers and sisters who are part of the one and same body,the body of Christ, or some that are believers and doers of God's Word. We were warn about that in His Word-" Until we all attain to the oneness of faith and in the accurate knowledge of the Son of GOD, to the measure of the stature that belongs to the "CHRIST".Eph:4:13. DO we really get the depth of those words? If so let us stop judging one a other and biting our "Brother" that Christ died for. Ga:5:15. Ro:14:4. What count in Jehovah eyes and what he looks to is,.."TO this one,then,I shall look, to the afflicted and "Contrite" in spirit and "Trembling" at my "Word" Isa:66:2- From brother, LOVE+HUMILITY= UNITY, Regent Lessard

 

At times, love is also a reason why things must be told the way they are.... after a few years of implicit warnings about seriously lacking rigor in personal Bible study and spiritual understanding and above all about a risk of drawing unwary and gullible people after him....

Some people want to be teachers because they think God called them to such a destiny.... but was it really so.....(James 3:1) ?

"All the same, wisdom is proved righteous by its works" - Mat. 11: 19

How long have you been an assiduous member of a forum way more anti-JW than here and now like most of us all here, the old breed, were ? Please, dare trusting our judgment.... ☺

 

Dear, Brother Utuna, I am sure you will agree with me that e-jw.org is considered a "WOLF PACK" by the G.B of jw.org and many of their members. They certainly say, listen to them at their web site and forum especially their understanding of God's Word. They look likes "Wolves" howl like "Wolves" they are a real "Wolf Pack" no doubt about it. The G.B will also say about us, "some people want to be teachers because they think God call them to such a destiny...but was it really so...(James 3:1) ? I have turn this QUOTE toward us personally and as a group. Do we teach our selves first? Ro:2:21 The G.B.would also say,"Please ,dare trust our Judgment" Would their judgment be true? Can we dare trust even our own selves or other men? Jer:17:5 as for me I put my "Trust in Jehovah alone".Pr:3:5. Christian Love to you Utuna, and to all the family. Regent

 

Yes, Earthbound ,

What you say is true; the body of Christ , our spiritual bride of Christ, heirs of the kingdom of heaven, should play the part of acting for the good of the body; 'the Christ.'

I have been on the site here several years, or close to it. I have been preaching, yes, not just a little adamant,... but out of frustration, and that is my biggest mistake here.

I take issue with WT doctrine: "You need us, the FDS to lead you into Paradise earth. You need to learn this all-important TRUTH: You will not be the body of Christ, or receive the spirit-birth/adoption, because that number was filled 80 years ago. All Christian hopefuls now hear the call we have been given directly from God as his Ezekiel-type prophet for the last days:

"Life everlasting on paradise earth for all! Come! Take the life-giving water WE offer you, and you will be saved and live on earth forever in paradise! We, though, The FDS, are all spirit-born, and will see you later as we and a few here are going to heaven and declared righteous...but not you."

So, it is this 'Good News' WT had us all preaching door to door all our lives; me for 35 years.

Now, after I re-examined all the facts in scripture. I see very clearly this is not the good news Paul received from Christ, nor Christ preached.

Lately I have softened my attitude, and began to give everyone the benefit of being Christians if they believe in Christ as the Son of God who died for our sins. 1 John 3: !4 , 23 but please read the next verse; 24!

I feel we who believe in Christ as the ransomer for sin, and all our sins absolved , even future ones, and the result? Sanctification through faith in the blood of Christ; in turn Christ, the judge forgives all our sins; totally. (unless we go back and start practice sinning, of course)

There is the difference in the LIFE of being a Christian , the reality of receiving the holy spirit adoption as Sons of God, and those who just believe and have a mental affirmation hope, without the gift of God and Christ becoming One with us, and the Body of Christ all becoming One. This is the subject I continue to bring up;

'Worship the Father with Spirit ...' not just truth.

Jesus instituted a new creation: pouring out God's spirit into believers, and God and he himself coming right inside the believer. This is how believers are re-born, born from above, adopted as sons of the Kingdom, their hope exists in the heavens, and ALL the rest of the New testament teachings.

Because WT has actually misled US...former and present JW's I try my best to teach Jesus' instructions. I have also laid a judgment on any religion teaching any part of the "You do not need to receive the Holy Spirit." ...as that is untrue, unscriptural, and certainly as damaging as trinity, or Hellfire, eternal soul and other serious crimes against God's word and his Son's word; (which are the same.)

You may not agree. maybe you see a more compromising way, that WT books are the 'Truth', received direct from God Jehovah, and beginning Bible students need not read their Bibles first and last, as they will do better just having a book study and come to all the WT meetings.(?)

I have found a few here , that are born of the spirit, as their 'breath'/words bear out this fact, and are in harmony with Jesus' teachings.

But it is also plain, many here, still attending meetings, year after year, and reporting 'time', and studying with new people the books of WT...are really struggling over even the CONCEPT of receiving Jesus Christ as well as Jehovah's spirit into their mind and hearts; a great and new experience Jesus has been sending to earth since Pentecost day, and his what...50 days after resurrection? or his death...one or the other.

I go into churches to witness, and to gather with Christians. I am unable to go locally into KHalls because I shut myself out, resigning and am apostate to the WT 'truth'. But I may start going into KH's regardless. I am not apostate to God and Christ; WT leadership IS, as their teachings show.

All who believe in Christ and honour him are brothers in the faith, and I call JW's and church members my brothers in the faith.

We all....are still learning. But some, particularly religious leaders, and many Bible translators change God's word with no qualms of conscience, and some preachers are out and out liars; WOLVES, as some here called me. You're forgiven, as you don't really know the whole of this thing.

In the end, Jesus is the judge.I know you agree with this.

I am near leaving off here for some time, and will spend my time healing some of my sinful nature/bad personality traits, with associating with persons who have the holy spirit worship, although like I said, don't have all the 'truth' part yet down either. John 4:23,24 I'm going on a trip hopefull in a month and will be working on my own Christianity, as I will now moreso, instead of yacking at others to try to convince them of something else than the WT Way.

I cannot keep trying to push spirit inheritance concepts onto this forum. It's obvious its not working, and has passed over from disinterest to rudeness on my part and antagonism among the group. Sorry.

So, may God bless this site, like I have stated many times. And may you find peace and love in the accurate knowledge of God.

"Keep getting filled with the spirit." That is my last desire for all here.

 

John S ,Before you leave us for now could you please give me your E- Mail address if it is possible for you? mine is theophilerlessard@gmail.com Thank you, your Brother in Christ, Regent Lessard

 

I can't write as eloquently as others do here on the forum. And many are more knowledgeable than I am on the "meatier" subjects, spiritually speaking.

But I do have certain expectations as to how forum members treat each other.

I have no problem with people having a different understanding or perspective on scripture, and then wanting to discuss that. It's a discussion forum and people present different viewpoints, in which we learn from each other.

Here is the point that I take issue with: I believe it is wrong and unloving for a forum member to say to a newly interested person: "Oh why don't you try running this question by the elders? See what response you get." It is wrong if the forum member knows that this is a controversial question and is likely to spark a strong response from the elders and the forum member knows this ahead of time. They know that is so because of their having been Jehovah's Witnesses for some time.

Would Jesus do that? In his time here on earth, would he tell someone to go speak to the Pharisees at the local synagogue and ask them to raise a controversial question with the Pharisees? We know from the Scriptures,what the Pharisees' behaviour was like.

I won't endorse that behaviour on the forum.

 

Just wanted to say a few words of encouragement to Rob.

As with all things, you have to start at the beginning. Start with the basics. Then you can expand from that point.

Paul wrote in the letter of Hebrews chapters 5 and 6, where he talked about learning the elementary things first. We start with "milk" and then move on to "meat" - in a spiritual sense.

Sorry that isn't as profound as the way some other people write. But it's the logical progression of things - begin with the basics.

I would also say - take your time with the learning and research. It's not a process to be rushed. Enjoy!

 

I also wanted to say "Hi" to Earthbound. It's nice to see you here again. I remember you from Robert's forum. Gotta go. Only have a few spare minutes.

 

I have encountered this too. They will take the scriptures that speak of such evil people and point me out. I call this the scourge of the Watchtower, because when you break their 1914 fantasy into pieces, they become wolves and speak to me as if I had just raped their wife.

I don't want to be a teacher, I have no problem Sharing links to e-watchman and perimeno, but I have found my own rebuttals for 1914 and the overlapping generations and it is my/our duty to share scriptures that contradict the Watchtower, basically, preaching the good news.

Is preaching, teaching? Isn't preaching providing information though, too people who are not aware of the truth? You can't teach someone who already knows the content.

 

Please forgive me, since I haven't been here in many, many moons, John, and am ignorant as to previous discussions and existing tensions or frustrations between the board's posters.

May I ask you a question here, John? Were you preaching with all sincerity those 35 years? What I mean in that question is this: You went out, participating in the door-to-door ministry, taking with you what you believed at that time was "the Truth," yes? Now, of course, you no longer believe what you did before, and you are frustrated or angry that you ever believed such-and-such in the first place, if I'm perceiving things as they might be. You can't believe you spent 35 years teaching that nonsense. And simultaneously, you are frustrated with others who are continuing to believe what you once did, thinking that they should see the "wrong"ness of such-and-such with the same clarity you feel you have now.

Does that pretty much some up things?

The next question, then, is whether or not you believe that our Father is a God who destroys people who didn't know any better. After all, there was a time when you didn't know any better. Until you did, and the knowledge came at a cost. That peace left that you had back when you were a little more "ignorant," let's say.

Now, I'm not going to suggest that our Father doesn't care what we say about Him, or whether we believe something that isn't true or not. But I've been out here in the "Wilderness" long enough to come to appreciate that this has never been about rightness, but rather about righteousness.

We already know of an abundance of believers down through Biblical history who failed miserably if our Judgment rested on whether we had things right or not, all the way back to Abraham and Noah, even. In fact, I'd even go so far as to say that they had to decide and act more on faith than we do today, because today we have an established record of fulfilled promises and blessings, do we not? Abraham really had no clue as to what our Father, Jehovah of Armies, was up to. He had no clue where he was going, or whether he would even arrive. And even during the course of his life, Abraham didn't have it all right. Believing that Jehovah would fulfill the promise regarding an heir, Abraham evidently thought Jehovah would do so through Hagar and went in to her, that she became with child. And we all know how that worked out. If Abraham hadn't believed that it was possible that Jehovah would fulfill His promise through a child by Hagar, then why did he go in unto his wife's handmaiden and subsequently have a son through her? Thus, Abraham acted out of ignorance. Do we condemn him and believe he was a fraud and a charlatan because Abraham had a different understand of Jehovah's purpose than we do, now that we can look back and see how Jehovah's Will worked out things?

Bottom line, Abraham did not cease being a servant of our Father because he had some wrong ideas about Jehovah.

Likewise with the disciples, if we take a giant leap forward in time. They had plenty of wrong notions about Jehovah's outworking of Purpose, and continued to have wrong notions long after Jesus left them. Peter, for example, was such a loyal servant and Jew, that he had a massive blind spot when it came to Jesus bringing the "other" sheep, the Gentiles/Heathens, into the fold. The direct, blunt dream Peter was given regarding what was clean and what was unclean wasn't enough to help Peter bridge that gap between what he believed was truth (that Gentiles may be believers, but they certainly weren't as privileged as Jews before Jehovah or our appointed Shepherd-King Jesus, because later on we read of Paul's confrontation with Peter over Peter's hypocrisy— a hypocrisy that was rooted in what Peter believed was "the Truth."

We are not being judged on how right we are. Humans love to spout off about what's right and who's wrong.

After all, didn't we pay a hefty price for that "right" to decide for ourselves what's "good" and what's "evil"?

So, let me ask you this: what's your blindspot, John? We all have one, and I sure have no idea what mine might be-- but I'd be a liar to believe I don't have one. I just can't see it or recognize it— that's why it's called a blindspot.

Now, others can point it out to me, but that isn't a guarantee that I'll suddenly see it for myself. In fact, I might even become more fervent in my defense that such-and-such isn't a blindspot at all— in spite of the number of people who can patently and obviously see it as plain as day.

Or, I can have confidence and place a certain trust in the counsel being given me, and in spite of my not being able to perceive the recognized blindspot I can strive to keep aware that this particular blindspot is tinting my words and actions before my brothers and sisters and try to temper myself until such time as my own eyes are opened— at which point, I'm sure to realize just how horrid I might have been, and am driven to my knees to beg forgiveness from my brothers and sisters for being so obstinately awful when I really had no idea!

Our Father is not grading us on our rightness, or at least I cannot believe He is doing so. All have fallen short, haven't we? And if our Father was keeping track of what we think rightly or wrongly, then who could stand?

I guess what I'm asking here is whether it is your belief that unless everyone here comes to think and see scriptural matters just like you currently do, then we are all going to be destroyed simply because we don't have a thing right or wrong? You don't have to like it— I'm not saying that you need to. But when you get down to it, do you love the people here with the same love that Jesus had for his disciples when they spoke out of their own present beliefs and convictions? Do you love the people here with the same love that our Father loves all men, desiring them to accept the undeserved kindness or grace He has presented? What about those brothers whom you vehemently disagree with? Do you stop thinking of them as brothers although you along with them have been purchased through the Sacrifice of the Lamb of God?

Because, let's be honest here, we have no evidence that Peter ever ceased from his conviction that Gentiles were in some way not Jew nor ever could be Jews or in a special relationship with our Father. We know that a direct dream from Jesus didn't change his mind, so are we going to argue that later, when the "outsider" Paul confronted him, that Peter placed more stock in Paul's calling him out on his hypocrisy than when Jesus did? All of the apostles appeared to have an issue with Paul being an apostle, because he was never one of the original twelve (or, eleven if you kick Judas from the circle). That lack of trust led to it being decided that Paul would be sent to the Gentiles (formally, as decided by the leader of the Jewish Christians in that first century, Jesus' brother, James, along with the apostles).

We're not talking here about those who would claim to be disciples of Jesus and yet sacrifice babies or engage in world acts unbefitting one who is part of the household of our Father and a follower of the One whom He appointed over us. We're talking specifically about those areas where we can have different perspectives on scriptural matters due to our experience, wisdom, and cultural influences.

If adding 2 to 3 gives you the answer 5, then we humans are inclined to think AHA! The fact is, adding 2 to 3 will give you 5 as the answer every time. But we don't stop there: we insist that you want to wind up with a "5" then you must add 2 + 3. If you arrive at 5 any other way, then you're doing it wrong. Someone comes long and tells us that they came up with 5 by adding 4 +1, and we dismiss them because they are doing it wrong, that everyone knows that you have to add 2 and 3 to get a 5, not add a 4 and a 1.

When you look at it objectively, you can see how silly and pedestrian this type of thinking is. Yet we have less interest in seeing the silliness of arguing about methods akin to long math and long division, even to the point of rejecting another fellow slave simply because he arrived at the same conclusion as we did differently from how we see it should be done... even though we both arrived at the same answer.

Everyone here, unless I'm mistaken, believes that we serve an Almighty God who rightfully owns and sustains this existence we know as our environment, planet, galaxy, and universe. We all believe that Jehovah God sends rain upon both the righteous and the unrighteous. And we all believe that a Day has been appointed for all of this nonsense and flagrant disregard to reach its end, at which point enough will have been enough, but no more.

We all here desire none to perish before or when that day arrives— this in spite of the inevitability that some will perish in that day for their flat refusal to both recognize Jehovah's sovereignty and the appointment of His Shepherd-King over us that we might be brought back into a personal, intimate relationship with our Creator just as Adam and Eve once enjoyed before they decided that they wanted to decide all of this "right" and "wrong" stuff (for everyone else, of course).

And clearly there are areas where there are disagreements among us concerning various aspects beyond the above, but these are inevitable. Even the apostle Paul came to understand that divisions and disagreements must occur, "For there must also be sects among you, that the approved may become manifest among you." (1 Corinthians 11:19, Darby)

Ah, but this is where the rub comes, because we humans think we can determine who has been the one who was shown "approved" in the matter of contention. But when as any conflict, battle, or war ever been won by who was right since the days of the patriarchs? Was North America conquered because the settlers were right and the Indians were wrong? Were Christians right during the Crusades to kill and slay those who "rejected" the gospel brought by Christians in those tumultuous years?

I'll say it again: this all centers on righteousness and not rightness, as I understand my reading and study of the Greek and Christian scriptures. Rejecting another believer because they believe that the doctrine of the Trinity best helps them hold to their faith towards our Father and His Promises is to appoint ourselves judges over the faith of a fellow slave. If they truly are a slave of our Master and Exemplar, shouldn't we place our trust in Jesus' capacity to know who his sheep are?

Yes, I know some would swiftly point out that a person can be sincere, but sincerely wrong. And they are right, from a human perspective. But we must remind ourselves that the apostle Paul is an ideal example of a brother who was sincere AND sincerely wrong in his views, even to the point of helping end the lives of who knows how many disciples of Jesus. Jesus didn't confront and appoint Paul because of Paul's wrong views, but because Jesus saw within Paul a zeal for God and for righteousness. Paul was a brother both before and after his conversion to the Way, however. Even after his "conversion" to Christianity, he never ceased from considering himself a brother among Jews-- even going so far as to circumcise Timothy, and undergoing his own purification when he returned to Jerusalem bringing with him an offering he had collected from Gentile followers as well as Jewish Christians out in the Diaspora.

What an example of love! And certainly not something we see today among Jehovah's Witnesses who are former members of another Christian group. No Witness in "good standing" that I know of would ever publicly acknowledge that while a Baptist is using 4+1 to arrive at 5, they are, in fact, a fellow slave merely serving in another part of the house of the Master. Instead, since that Baptist believer insists on using 4+1, they rejected as a fellow slave by the Witness. Henceforth, it becomes the opinion and entrenched view of said Witness that there's no point in discussing scriptural matters with a Baptist, as if there is anything that Baptist could teach me about the "Truth"!

But I've seen the similar trait among Baptists (for example), who flatly view Jehovah's Witnesses as false Christians in need of salvation, refusing even to countenance the possibility that they could likewise learn a few things from a Witness just as a Witness could learn from them.

But I see I've gone on and ranted my way through another long post, and need to get around for work now. I still want to get to the remainder of your response, though, and am sorry time ran out this morning, John.

Submitted for your thoughts and perusal,
~~Earthbound

 

Sorry you don't know me well enough for a lecture like that.

God and Christ and these souls here know me well. I have taught Jesus Christ's teachings literal, and true over any man's . That is my motto; spirit and truth. Jesus is the truth. Baptism with the holy spirit is the way...the only way.

I am free of blackmail from WT , using my family as ransom. I did that 10 years ago with my first wife and all my Witness relatives. I speak openly and without that fear. But I know the sad fact that is going on still. And there is only one way to do it. Lop off the giant's head, like David; stand up to him and fight.

Here are the stones to throw at WT, not the sheep...




No one gets the truth except through the teachings of Jesus. These people must be drawn by God, before the truth penetrates their thinking. John 6:44

WT is sinning, pushing Jesus' teachings away from the WT feed-trough. Simple.

Witnesses do not know they must become 'one' with Christ, because WT has taught it as unnecessary. This is a big lie and is intended to fleece the sheep.

To me, I understand why many Witnesses are not paying attention to Jesus' words. I thought these JW sites would be able to see through the deception. Many don't care...now. But Jesus is not happy with worship of the WT mediator/prophet, and will not receive Christ as the bread of life. Blessings will be withheld.

I have to accept it for what it is. The course of action people take depends on decisions made in their minds. I can't change that, no matter I have tried on this and other JW sites for not just a few days: Years.

Now, I am seeing the truth.John 6:44

 

I'm sorry, John, I have to say you're incorrect there. I currently do attend meetings and have studied very recently. There is indeed study of Jesus' words and teachings.

In fact, the next book study is all about Jesus. Very much looking forward to the transition.

 

Hi John S,

You are correct in that I don't know you "well," or I would've known that my efforts to engage you in a reasonable discussion on what you'd written would be summarily brushed aside as a lecture.

The one who gives an answer before he listens-- this is foolishness and disgrace for him. — Proverbs 18:13, Holman Christian Standard Bible

I can't help but ask myself how it is that you are so adamant that you've found a way of worship that brings you the peace and assurance that you have been looking for, yet take such serious issue with Witnesses and their worship and consideration of our Father in the heavens. I've read and re-read what you've written recently and I see nothing that would demonstrate a willingness to discuss and reason together because your only conveyed interest is that you convert individuals here to your way of seeing things as the only right way to do so. If I hold up a ball and ask you what color it is, you're going to insist that it's red and ONLY red. Yet if I turn the ball around and show you that from my perspective as I look at it with you, it is actually blue. We can spend our time arguing over which side of the ball is the one everyone else should be looking at from this day to the end of time, of course, but frankly, I've come to appreciate that for the tremendous waste of time that it is. It's the same ball that we are looking at.

But then again, the apostle Paul had some thoughts about this phenomenon among brothers in Christ:

And indeed, there must be differences among you to show which of you are approved. — 1 Corinthians 11:19, Berean Study Bible

Here, Paul is pointing out that it is through our differences (not our agreements!) when we demonstrate whether we are "approved." When we're all agreed on a subject or perspective, everything is hunky-dory. But when a difference arises, it moves us to manifest what's within us., whether we are too proud to think anyone can tell us anything?

Jehovah God has always used the last person one would expect in order to reach out to His people. Even the prophets were raised up outside of the establishment of the Temple cult, and roundly rejected by the leaders of Jehovah's people.

Jehovah has frequently spoken to us through others. Someone will say something, and we find ourselves either getting our feathers ruffled to the point where we assert that we're "all set" when it comes to what to believe, that we don't need anyone to tell us this or that because we're now above such "frivolities." We won't settle for anything less than God Himself speaking directly to us and telling us that we are wrong. Or, we demonstrate humility to the counsel and instruction and show a willingness to take a hard look at our self.

This is, for lack of a better term, a pride issue.

You accusing me of lecturing you falls under that banner, John. Your terse rejection of someone reaching out to you as a brother in the spirit of Isaiah 1:18 likewise falls under that banner.

As I said earlier, whatever the peace and joy you assert you now have in a one-on-one relationship with Jesus and our Father apart from the rest of the body of Christ (Luke 18:11), your anger, bitterness, and resentment remain and come through very clearly. I may not know you, but I can read what you choose to type, and these unresolved issues in your heart are troubling, to say the least. I say that as someone who also had to work my way through what I felt was betrayal and injustice on the part of the Watchtower organization. I'll admit that it took a long time for me, too, and perhaps an insufficient amount of time has passed for you at this point.

In the meantime, it sounds as though you're more interested in converting others to your personal orthodoxy (read: gaining followers) than in reasonable discussions, so I can certainly leave you to it until another opportunity arises when we might have exchanges of encouragement, faith, and hope as brothers and fellow slaves in Christ.

~~Earthbound

 

No,... I read over half your 'counsel', before I saw what you were doing; grandstanding for some attention, or glory at my expense. Am I supposed to bow to your wisdom?

And then what doing it all again in the next comment? I don't know much about you. So I won't judge your attitude.

"One is the judge"...of all of us. Be careful, about sizing me, or anyone up.

I say this, we must follow Jesus Christ's teachings to become Christians.

WT is not doing this, and hides the truth from Christ from their followers; even changing scripture wording in the Bible they call a translation.

That is easy to show; read my posts. I use their own Bible and Kingdom Interlinear to show it.

And if you used to be a Witness, you know the WT good news is not Jesus' teachings, nor the Apostles. They even USED to admit: "The Bible was written for the anointed." Yeah ! Duh! What's that tell you? Follow Jesus ' directions, and embrace the way he says to become kingdom heirs.

When will JW's that have been on these sites START to do something about what they have learned, and FELT for years....YEARS...in some cases, instead of crying about the 'injustices, and errors ', WT has been committing on their membership?

Gain some respect. Do what we know we need to do,....and let the chips fall where they may.

"If any man will do his will,he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself." John 7:17

I have endeavored on this site, and others I spoke on for years, to do just as our Lord said;

"Jesus answered them and said, ' My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.' " John 7:16

As Christians, we should be BOUND to those words, and stay on the word of Christ and the apostles. Anything else , really is not trustworthy or time worthy, in comparison.

Maybe you can agree to this. John 14:6

 

Now, brother Earthbound, I have read some of your thoughts, and agreed with all of them on the thread; 'Luke 21:8'

How about reading some of mine before you pour out so much bitterness on me.

And all the 'old-timers' here....

Accept my apology for being hard on you. That's judging too.

Its just so hard to sit back and watch your lives go by for years now, and it reminds me of people with bad injuries , or infections, who will not go to the doctor or hospital to get healed, and wind up getting a limb amputated, or worse.

Forgive me, but don't forgive yourselves. Do something about this truth issue. Stand up for Christ, or he will not stand up for you when he returns. Matt. 10:37

WT is NOT worthy of your worship, so why keep attending their worship meetings? In the long run, 'if you KNOW what is right, and do not do it, it is a sin for you.' (James)

Gain the respect for Christ , your real Lord, and yourselves, and others who have learned what you know.

Then we can start anew, and begin a new chapter in religious history, (read in the new Kingdom of God history books written during the 1000 year reign)

"These are the acts of the JW's who changed, and became Christians."

 

Hi there, John,

Apology accepted, of course. And I'm happy to hear that you agree with the points I made in the Luke 21:8 topic started by BreaktheWalls, of course.

Is there anything in particular you've written that you can link me to that you'd be willing to discuss, you and I? By discuss, I mean are you open to responses and willing to listen to any adjustments or corrections from another brother who has himself been walking as a believer and disciple since the tender age of 7 (I'm 50 this year, doh!!!)

I imagine it does feel that way from your perspective. I don't happen to see the situation that way, based on my reading of the scriptures, but I can at least appreciate your viewpoint.

In other words, the Jewish Christians should've overthrown the Pharisees and Sanhedrin in their day?

That's assuming that Witnesses worship the Watchtower organization. And I know some who do, but that is hardly representative of Witnesses as a group of believers. For them, the Watchtower is believed to be the means by which our Father is using to carry out the preaching work into the last days in the same way the Jews believed that the Temple was the dwelling place of Jehovah. Both are/were pretty much convinced that nothing will happen to the Temple/the Watchtower. We know how that belief ended with the Temple, and I imagine it will go pretty much the same way with the Watchtower organization and all other Christian authorities spread across today's Christian groups of believers.

As to your question "why keep attending their worship meetings," I believe the answer rests in a single question: why do you remain here years after coming to realize that nothing is going to change here (as far as your judgment is concerned)?

Why continue to step down into this cesspool of false teachings and stubborn adherence to human views, as you've frequently alluded, when you know that it's a frustrating waste of time anyhow for you? Why persist in coming here to gather in this form of online worship and consideration of the Bible?

And are you actively showing up at a local Kingdom Hall to try to stop any Witnesses from entering into what you know and believe is false worship? Because if you aren't, then by your own admission you are bloodguilty for each person you allow through the door into the Kingdom Hall, are you not?

You are assuming and pre-judging hearts here, again, John. Telling someone that they need to "gain the respect," is no different than saying that unless we agree with your views, any respect we have for our Master and Exemplar of our faith is of no consequence. The reality is that Jehovah's Witnesses have a tremendous amount of respect for Christ, as you word. But it isn't perfect, because we are not yet perfected. Jehovah has less of an issue with these little sectarian squabbles than a great many Christians, inside or outside of the Watchtower organization. He can look upon the secret person of the heart, but us humans can only go by what we see, and boy do we! We may not be able to judge the sincerity of a fellow believer, so we structure things so that the fellow believer has to do an array of activities to give us way to judge our fellow believer. Believe in the Trinity, or perish. Serve 10 or more hours in field service, or people will think you aren't putting "Kingdom interests" first. And I could go on with these silly little encumbrances foisted on us my religious systems.

I hope we'll see the end of religion, and not the start of a whole new chapter of it. Yikes!!

Sigh.

I guess I missed the meeting where you were appointed as the gatekeeper in the stead of Jesus, deciding for our Master who's one of his sheep and who isn't. "Yeah, Jesus, those people over there... they aren't sheep of yours, Jesus. They're imperfect, and I tried telling them everything they had wrong, but they just wouldn't listen to me, as you know. Let them burn as the little fakes they are."

I will speak candidly to you and say that it took me years to move past my judgmentalism of other brothers and sisters, and I have NO interest in picking up where I left off if that's the type of Christianity you have been offering this board all the years you've been coming here, if your "message" was the same then as it remains today.

If you believe that Jesus is in the best position to judge hearts, motives, and intentions, then let Jesus carry out his assignment and cease from speaking in judgment.

Yet Michael the archangel, when he was disputing with the Devil in a debate about Moses' body, did not dare bring an abusive condemnation against him but said, "The Lord rebuke you!" — Jude 1:9, Holman Christian Standard Bible

If an archangel saw the wisdom in leaving condemnations to God, then surely we would be wise to follow suit, even when we enter into disputes with fellow believers.

Submitted for your consideration and perusal,
~~Earthbound