MOL

Discussion in 'Bible Prophecy' started by Joshuastone7, Nov 30, 2020.

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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    I have been studying 2 Thessalonians these last few days, and I would like to share some insights I have gleaned.

    "Let no one lead you astray in any way, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction." 2Th 2:3

    "It" as mentioned in the scripture above is the "Day of Jehovah" mentioned in verse 2. The apostasy is that which the KOTN and little horn of Daniel bring about among Jehovah's people just before the end.

    "And those who act wickedly against the covenant, he will lead into apostasy by means of smooth words." Dan 11:32

    "And an army was given over, together with the constant feature, because of transgression" Dan 8:12

    Now the scripture I wanted to bring your attention to is here;

    "And now you know what is acting as a restraint, so that he will be revealed in his own due time." 2Th 2:6

    Now if you do some research you will find there are wildly differing views as to who or what is acting as a restraint keeping the MOL from being revealed. However, I believe Paul had just mentioned what was acting as a restraint, and that is the apostasy. What keeps the MOL from being revealed? Well, the apostasy has to come first, and that is what is keeping the MOL from being revealed. Because, once you see the apostasy, you will see the MOL.

    I will keep this post short, though I do have further studies into who the MOL is as I post further...

    All love...
     
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    Tsaphah

    Tsaphah Experienced Member

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    Hi Josh,
    How interesting! I have been reading Matthew and Luke, where Jesus is warning the disciples about His return, and the condition of the end time. Jesus quotes Daniel and mentions the “abomination of desolation”, which is the 1,290 days; ( 2 an one half years). It is mentioned three times in Daniel. ( 9:27, 11:31, 12:11 ) I guess some would say that it’s coincidence that You and I would be researching the same things.

    But what I have been searching for is the “generation” that Jesus says; “Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. ( Mt. 24:34 NKJV ) Who are these persons, being spoken of ? How long is considered a “generation” ? Is there a certain time period to be considered?

    I am aware that those born in the period of 1925 were considered to be those who were alive/born in that range who served in World War 2. Here in the USA would have been at least 17 years old. That would have been a time of war, high crimes and misdemeanors. Or, they could be considered as experiencing what Jesus said would come upon “this generation”.

    Here is a standard time period: “A generation is ‘all of the people born and living at about the same time, regarded collectively.’ It can also be described as, ‘the average period, generally considered to be about 20–30 years, during which children are born and grow up, become adults, and begin to have children.’” ( Wikipedia )

    Let’s look at it [generation] in a different way. We can say that Jesus was talking about those disciples whom he was talking with. We have to assume they were all about the same age, give or take a few years. Jesus was about 30 years old when he started preaching. ( Lu 3:23 ) So, Jesus was telling them that they would see those things mentioned by Him. Accordingly, “They” (mentioned ) would likely die during that “time of the end”. Jerusalem was destroyed in about 66 CE/AD. Some of those disciples would be about 90+. Depending on their age at the time they followed Jesus. :eek:
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    This is what I have understood, Jesus was speaking of those before him. Was he talking about Gen 6:3 and the 120 years of man? Was he speaking of the most current generation at the time of his words? I don't think it really matters. I believe the previous fulfillments are place markers to show us how the final fulfillment of these prophecies will occur. Meaning the Maccabean revolt and as well the Jewish revolt were both prophetic of the end-time fulfillment of prophecy. So to me, Jesus was telling us in the time of the end to look to the events from 167ce and 66ce as they will give us a guidepost for the end times...

    Did you know that the temple clerk by the name of Eleazar ben Hananiah removed the daily sacrifices for the Roman people and Emporer in 66ce and was one of the main catalysts at the beginning of the Jewish revolt? Three and a half years later Rome enter the city and destroyed the Holy Place.

    "There will be 1,290 days from the time that the daily sacrifices are stopped, until someone sets up the "Horrible Thing" that causes destruction." Dan 12:11 (Contemporary English Version)

    All love...
     
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    RR144

    RR144 New Member

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    Some thoughts: If we were not familiar with the Truth, we might think of the “man of sin” [KJV] as a literal being, as some wicked person, but it is the false religious system just as the “man of God” is the true Church, a collective body made up of component parts or “joints.” The ideal is the picture of Jesus as the head and the Church as the body parts. Similarly, the man of sin is an organization with a person (the pope) as the head and the corresponding component parts of the Antichrist system (the Papacy) as the body. The man of God is The Christ, The Elijah, with Jesus as head. The man of sin is the Antichrist, the Papacy, a religious system, with Satan as its head. As the head of the man-of-sin system, Satan works through Papacy, whereas Jesus, the head of the man of God, works through the Church.

    Paul received much information through visions. Although he was not allowed to reveal in detail what he saw, he was probably given certain parameters of liberty within which he could inform the brethren. With all the knowledge Paul was given, he would have carefully, through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, selected the words he used when writing his epistles. Every single word is meaningful. Even a seemingly simple adjective can be extremely revealing. The point is that Paul was well informed about the length of the time period before Jesus’ invisible return—it was not short, and the man-of-sin system had to first grow and develop and be recognized. General recognition of the man of sin did not occur until Martin Luther’s day in the 1500s and the Protestant Reformation. Tyndale in England was just as clear on the subject as Luther, but Luther was favored as being the sixth messenger to the Church.

    “Let no man deceive you by any means [the means listed in verse 2: spirit, word, or letter]: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed.” Even if a spirit being should come visibly, they were not to believe it was Jesus, for the day of Christ’s presence would not come until, first, a falling away from the faith occurred and the man of sin was revealed. Although Paul could not give details, his mention of the apostasy was a hint of what had to take place; namely, the man of sin had to come and be
    revealed before Jesus could invisibly return. A great deception would precede even the beginning of the day of Christ.

    The “man of sin” is called the “son of perdition” because the system is going into everlasting destruction, never to rise again. Stated another way, under the symbol of the beast, the system will be cast alive into the lake of fire and brimstone (Rev. 19:20). The
    deception at the end of the Millennium will not be along religious lines.

    The natural mind thinks of the man of sin as a literal individual, a literal man—something like Judas, who was also called the “son of perdition” (John 17:12). The word “perdition” means everlastingly lost.

    Just my thoughts ... we can agree to disagree!

    RR
     
    Tsaphah and thinking like this.
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    You know, other Watchtower apologist websites push the idea that the MOL is an individual person within the organization of the Watchtower that will be revealed, and that the deluding influence is the 1914 doctrine; however, I want to highlight something you said here below that throws a proverbial wrench into that thinking:

    This is a very astute observation RR. Let me share with you why I say that...

    "He stands in opposition and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship." 2Th 2:4

    "It exalted itself even against the Prince of the army." Dan 8:11a

    "and in his heart he will exalt himself." Dan 8:25b

    "The king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvelous things against the God of gods."
    Dan 11:36

    ----------

    "But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders and every unrighteous deception." 2Th 2:9

    "And by his cunning he will use deception to succeed." Dan 8:25a

    "And it deceives those dwelling on the earth, by reason of the signs that were given to it to perform before the beast." Rev 13:14

    "The beast was taken, and with him the false prophet who worked the signs in his sight, with which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image." Rev 19:20

    "With flattery, he will corrupt those who have violated the covenant," Dan 11:32

    ----------

    "It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies,"
    Rev 13:5a

    "And look! there were eyes like human eyes in this horn, and there was a mouth speaking arrogantly." Dan 7:8b

    ----------

    "so that he sits down in the temple of God, publicly showing himself to be a god." 2Th 2:4b

    "And arms will stand up, proceeding from him; and they will profane the sanctuary, the fortress, and remove the constant feature. “And they will put in place the disgusting thing that causes desolation." Dan 11:31

    "And he will plant his royal tents between the grand sea and the holy mountain of Decoration;" Dan 11:45

    "Therefore, when you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken about by Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place." Mth 24:14

    ----------

    "He will intend to change times and law, and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time." Dan 7:25b

    "and from him the constant feature was taken away, and the established place of his sanctuary was thrown down." Dan 8:11b

    "And arms will stand up, proceeding from him; and they will profane the sanctuary, the fortress, and remove the constant feature." Dan 8:31b

    "and it was given authority to act for 42 months." Rev 13:5b

    "I will cause my two witnesses to prophesy for 1,260 days dressed in sackcloth.” Rev 11:3

    ----------

    "Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence." 2Th 2:8

    "But the Court sat, and they took away his rulership, in order to annihilate him and to destroy him completely." Dan 7:26

    "he will bring many to ruin. He will even stand up against the Prince of princes, but he will be broken without human hand." Dan 8:25b

    "and he will come all the way to his end, and there will be no helper for him." Dan 11:45b

    "And the wild beast was caught, and along with it the false prophet that performed in front of it the signs with which he misled those who received the mark of the wild beast and those who worship its image. While still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulfur." Rev 19:20

    ----------

    You tell me, is that enough connections between the MOL and wild beast/little horn? lol...

    In my opinion, what others miss by saying the MOL comes from within the Watchtower (Or whatever they believe Israel to be.) is the fact that clearly the beast is seen creating the "lie" that culminates into the apostasy. It is that which not only creates the lie and misleads but also removes the constant feature and puts in place the disgusting thing.

    Now I don't think we should discount the fact that the MOL is called the man of sin just as Judas was, but instead of the MOL being a mirror image of Judas, I believe what we are seeing is another correlation to apostasy. What 2Th is telling us is this governmental organization sets up a false narrative that causes a great apostasy within spiritual Israel.

    Look, the buying and selling in Rev 13 are spiritual. We know this because Jesus told us to buy refine gold from him in chapter 3 of the same Revelation given to John. And when the second beast of Rev 13 gives a mark of 666 in order to buy or sell, that clearly means spiritual freedoms.

    Here, look at this:

    "And the weight of the gold that came to Solʹo·mon in one year amounted to 666 talents of gold," 1Kin 10:14

    That gold Solomon collected was in direct violation of Jehovah's command to him not to collect in access and was part of his well-documented apostasy.

    Then we have another clear example of the number 666 in connection to the apostasy of God's people in Daniel 3. King Nebbi set up an image measuring 60x6x6 and made a command all must worship it or be thrown into the fire. As we know Daniel's companions refused to worship the image and passed through the fire. Just as those who refuse to worship the image set up by the beast in the time of the end also are refined by fire.

    "This third I will bring through the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on My name, and I will answer them. I will say, ‘They are My people,’ and they will say, ‘The LORD is our God.’ ” Zech 13:9

    It should also be obvious in the exodus story when Arron set up a golden two-horned wild beast to be worshipped by the Israelites that this ongoing narrative throughout Scripture is about the apostasy of God's people in the time of the end.

    What I don't know at this moment is what is the lie?

    "That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie." 2Th 2:11

    We know spiritual Israel comes down ultimately for their errors and sins against God. We only need to read just about every book of Scripture to know that; but specifically, it's the beast/little horn that brings about the lie that deceives those who will perish within true believers. If you know what that lie is please tell me, otherwise, the search continues! :)

    In union with our Lord Christ Jesus, all love...
     
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    Tsaphah

    Tsaphah Experienced Member

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    I was reading your posts about the “man of destruction” mentioned in 2 Th 2:3. I started studying the usage of the Greek words used in the subject of who, or what is being spoken of. The Greek word anthropos is defined as a human being, whether male or female. Also used to distinguish man from beings of a different order.
    1. of animals and plants
    2. of from God and Christ
    3. of the angels

    Also used with the added notion of weakness, by which man is led into a mistake or prompted to sin.
    It is my understanding that the “man of destruction” is not referring to a “man”, singular; but used as the reference of mankind. If we read how Paul addressed this subject as “a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.” ( 2 Th 2:2 KJV ) This leads to verse 3 which mentions “the man of lawlessness/sin is revealed, the son of destruction/perdition.” (2 Th 2:3 NKJV ) Here is where the smile comes in: Verse 4; Donald J Trump, “who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.” Ha Ha Ha!!!

    Anthropology: from the Greek word, anthropos, is the study of humans,"mankind", as a species. The word “man” can refer to a singular man, or to man as people of similar likes, dislikes, thoughts, etc. Here is a comment of the subject, of Coffman Commentaries: One Man’s opinion.

    https://classic.studylight.org/com/bcc/view.cgi?book=2th&chapter=2&verse=7#2Th2_7
     
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    RR144 New Member

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    Our Lord does not speak to us in an audible voice, as he did to the Apostles, but has he does speak to us through His Word.
    Did not our Lord in the parable of the dragnet explain to us that in the end of this Gospel Age there would be a separation of those in the Gospel net? (Matthew 13:47-50) Does he not again in the parable of the wheat and tares tell us of the separation due to take place in the harvest time of this Gospel Age, when only the true and the ripe wheat will be gathered into the barn? (Matthew 13:24-30) Does he not through the Apostle warn us that in the end of the age perilous times shall come because men will be lovers of their own selves – selfish, ambitious – lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God? (2 Tim. 3:1,2.) Does he not tell us that it would be at the time in the divine plan when God would send [permit] strong delusions, so that all might believe a lie who shall not have received the truth in the love of it and with zeal? – 2 Thess. 2:11.

    As to the "lie", is it one particular lie? is it many? Is it the same lie for all, or different lies that stumble individuals? I'm not one who believes that the Lord deals with us as a church, denomination or ecclesia. The Lord deals with us as individuals not collectively as no church or group is responsible for my salvation.

    RR
     
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    Tsaphah

    Tsaphah Experienced Member

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    Yes, I agree that we are all responsible for our actions. There is the common question that is asked of someone; “Why did YOU do that?” The answer expected is from the individual to whom the question is asked. Usually the answer is given to distract the blame to someone or something else. First case in point. “And He said, Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten of the tree of which I commanded you not to eat? And the man said, The woman whom You gave to be with me, she has given to me of the tree, and I ate.” ( Gen 3:11-12 NKJV ) Deflection answer; blame the woman. And as a second deflection: notice; “The woman You gave to be with me.” Blame God for what Adam did. It didn’t work.

    The original lie came from Satan, in the voice from the serpent. Satan talked to the weakest link, Eve, to get to Adam. In our case, similar to Adam, we can’t pass the buck. But, the “man of lawlessness, perdition, is not one individual. It may start with one man, and that one man will influence many others. We could look for that one person, but we would be wasting our time, and life.

    There were those that believed that Adolph Hitler was the “man of lawlessness/perdition”, but as we know, it wasn’t the end. We didn’t see Jesus returning in the clouds/heavens. ( Mt 24:30 NKJV ) That will be the sure thing to show the time of the end. But, there will be other signs to take place that are mentioned by Jesus. Those people who believe in the words of the Bible will see and understand what is about to come upon the earth. There will be the other class of people who ignore the signs, and carry on with their way of life. Then, as Jesus said, “sudden destruction will be upon them.”

    There are changes happening now, that will lead to more devastating, plagues, storms, famine, and disastrous wars, world wide. There are some troubling times coming upon the earth.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Greetings brother...

    Here's a question for you: I noticed you believe the Holy See will have a role deep into the time of the end as part of the satan's system. With that in mind, what would the constant feature represent that is removed for the three and a half times?

    Also, are you saying you don't believe the apocalypse in the end time will include judgement on a religious group entity?

    All love...
     
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    RR144 New Member

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    Hey Josh, just noticed this, so before I answer, could you elaborate with a scriptural verse(s)

    Thanks,

    RR
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Rev 11:1-3
    Rev 12:14
    Dan 12:11
    Dan 11:31
    Dan 8:13
     
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    RR144 New Member

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    The twelfth chapter of Daniel is saying that there are four end periods: 1,260, 1,290, 1,335, and “X,” the unknown date yet future. One of the many things that will happen at that unknown date is the resurrection of the Ancient Worthies. Daniel will stand in his lot then, “at the end of the days.” In other words, the Ancient Worthies will come forth not like mankind, with the last being first and the first last, but right away as a group at the midnight hour of Jacob’s Trouble.

    Daniel was told he would “rest” for a long period of time, and then “stand in ... [his] lot at the end of the days.” He was told, in effect: “This information is being given to you, even though you do not understand it.” And Daniel recorded the information, realizing it would benefit others, not himself. The suggestion was that when the 1,335 days came, it would be a wonderful time, for it would mark the real beginning of the unsealing process. As time went on, the “words,” the “book” (that is, present truth), would be unsealed more and more (Dan. 12:4). In the beginning of the parousia, the key to present truth was given to begin to unlock the mystery (or mysteries) due to be understood at the end of the age.

    Dan. 12:11 reads "And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days."

    “From the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up” would be a time period of 1,290 days (years). The “abomination that maketh desolate” actually began before Justinian’s day. That doctrine started in the 300s, but
    it was “set up” by Emperor Justinian when he gave Papacy its power as the Man of Sin in AD 539. Two things happened: (1) The daily merit of Christ’s sacrifice was taken away by the substitution of the doctrine of the Mass. (2) Papacy was established as a contending power. The little man-child was caught up to “heaven” and became as (the false) Michael (Rev. 12:5,7–10). A war in heaven ensued, and the dragon was cast out. In effect, Justinian opened the door to Papacy by recognizing the pope as the head of the Christian Church, even
    though the Eastern Orthodox Church was right in Constantinople. What Justinian probably thought was that by throwing out this bone, he would be unifying the eastern and western divisions of the empire, Constantinople and Rome being the respective headquarters. But
    instead Papacy was strengthened so that it became its own entity. The tables were turned. No longer was Papacy the servant of the government; instead the government became the servant of Papacy. Thus AD 539 was a very critical period of time, for the starting point of the 1,260 days, the 1,290 days, and the 1,335 days are all that same year. From that point we add the prophetic time periods.

    539 + 1,260 = the year 1799
    539 + 1,290 = the year 1829
    539 + 1,335 = the year 1874

    In 1829 the Millerite movement began. William Miller, who had an interesting ministry, understood the 1,260 and the 1,290 days, but he expected the Lord to return visibly from 1844.

    RR
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    I believe these days will be fulfilled in the future and they will be 'days,' not years...

    Imo...
     

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