Moving Ahead With Jehovah's Organization

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by SingleCell, Mar 11, 2014.

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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    An excellent new article from Bro King:

    http://e-watchman.com/moving-ahead-jehovahs-organization/

    Worth a read for a certainty.

    What an exciting time, I'll tell you, I'm not looking forward to the day of Jehovah ... but I am looking forward to being able to speak openly about this subject with my congregation!!
     
  2. Hi SingleCell:

    Here is a quote from Robert King's article... And if Jehovah’s Witnesses were to recognize that the holy place that is destined for desolation is actually Jehovah’s organization, so-called, then that would mean that when the disgusting thing stands where it ought not then true Christians will be required to flee from the Watchtower Society!

    It's important to know a subtle yet noteworthy difference in the actual scripture that the above thought is taken from, and it's from Matthew 24 starting in verse 15 where it says "Therefore, when you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken about by Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place+ (let the reader use discernment), 16 then let those in Ju·de′a begin fleeing to the mountains.+
    ""
    It's not when the disgusting thing "is" standing in a holy place, so much, it's "when you catch sight" or "see" the disgusting thing standing in a holy place are you directed to leave for the surrounding mountains. This will be at different times for different people. I "saw" them standing in a holy place many years ago when it first came to public light and I did indeed head for the hills, but most rank and file JW's have not as yet, but they soooooon will. The Governing Body of the Watchtower know that they are that disgusting thing, along with all who fraudulently claim to be Jews, but who are not. Each one of them knows that they are not part of Christ's Bride and soooooon they will be forced to admit it publically for all to see and hear.

    The Watchtower is not a holy place, but the temple of the New Covenant is a holy place and anyone who represents that they belong there when they actually don't constitutes themselves a part of the "disgusting thing" that causes desolation. They are like the Pigs that were offered up on the alters in Jerusalem during the age of the Macabees. They are unclean animals on Jehovah's alter.

    frank
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    Interesting Frank, thanks for sharing. I never really considered the 'catch sight of part'.

    I'm not sure it's standing there yet, from my perspective, but I do agree with your basic premise.
     
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    Utuna

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    The whole sentence is "when you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation standing in a holy place...."
    What is written between commas changes nothing to the meaning of the sentence.
     
  5. withHi Utuna:

    Not sure what you are getting at with your comment, please elaborate.

    frank
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    It is a common mistake to think that the "courtyards" being trampled is the same moment the Disgusting Thing stands in a holy place. This is not so. (Rev 11)

    Luke 21:20,21; “However, when you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near. Then let those in Ju·de′a begin fleeing to the mountains,"

    You will see in the scripture above that it is speaking of the moment Jerusalem was surrounded in 66CE. This was before the Disgusting Thing stood in a Holy Place three and a half years later as we see at Math 24:16; “Therefore, when you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken about by Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place (let the reader use discernment), then let those in Ju·de′a begin fleeing to the mountains."

    Now these are two separate events separated by 1290 days according to Daniel 12:11. Remember, when Rome entered the city in 70CE that was the end, game over, there was nothing after. The clock actually started when the city was surrounded. The fact that both scriptures tell those in Judea to flee is the only reason they look similar, but they are in fact separated by three and a half years. The city being surrounded and then the Holy Place being entered later.

    Jerusalem has not yet been surrounded, let alone could the Disgusting Thing be placed. The moment the Disgusting Thing stands in a Holy Place will kick off Armageddon.
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    Joshua:

    Reading this spiritually, are we talking about the nation-states figuratively surrounding the JW preaching work / organization, in order to shut it down and make it desolate?

    If so, what would the form of the 'disgusting thing' be? A nation-state official taking control of the 'city', perhaps the MOL being revealed in that way?

    Or the destruction of the organization a la Jerusalem 70 AD?
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    In the year 66CE when Rome surrounded the city the sacrifices for the Emperor and Roman people were ceased. Those were the sacrifices that ceased in Dan 12:11; “And from the time that the constant feature has been removed and the disgusting thing that causes desolation has been put in place, there will be 1,290 days." Now 1290 days later was in 70CE when Rome entered the city to destroy it being the "Disgusting Thing standing in a Holy Place".

    WikiPedia
    "According to Josephus, the violence which began at Caesarea in 66 was provoked by Greeks of a certain merchant house sacrificing birds in front of a local synagogue.[18] The Roman garrison did not intervene and the long-standing Hellenistic and Jewish religious tensions took a downward spiral. In reaction, one of the Jewish Temple clerks Eliezar ben Hanania ceased prayers and sacrifices for the Roman Emperor at the Temple."

    In parallel with our day, the moment Jerusalem will be surrounded is when the WTS news reports come out revealing the MOL within the temple of "The God" and then the constant feature is removed. Today the constant feature is the Watchtower magazine that announces Jehovah's kingdom to the world. That will no longer be produced and the society will dissolve. It will be exactly 1290 days after the WTS goes down before the Disgusting Thing stands in a Holy Place. The Disgusting Thing will be what it always has been and can be traced through Daniel in the colossal statue, beasts of Dan 7,8 and Rev 13,17. Basically it will be the Eighth king that is set up, making up those nations.
     
  9. Hi Josh:

    "The moment the Disgusting Thing stands in a Holy Place will kick off Armageddon." This statement is as unreasonable as your entire end times chronology. For it to be true would make Jesus warning moot, as it would be "too late" to do anything anyway. It seems to me that you are the one confusing the issue. Are you actually waiting for "Jerusalem" to be surrounded by literal armies? The disgusting thing is already in it's place, and has been for some time now, you just have not "seen it" yet. Be patient, you will, at some point they will have to admit that they are imposters to the throne.

    frank
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    Doesn't there need to be a 'national group' like Rome in 66 surrounding the 'city' first?

    If anything, what you're making the case for, is corrupt leaders a la Jeremiah in the form of the GB saying 'peace' when there is no peace, before the judgment invasion.

    (and persecuting the prophet who tells the truth)
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    It is the beast in Rev 13 from the sea that surrounds the city and removes the constant feature, it is not till that beast goes down at the fifth bowl that it, (the beast) rises from the abyss in Rev 17, and it's that entity that enters the Holy Place after the Holy Place has been restored at the end of the 1260 days of captivity. It can be traced through scripture that the beast in Rev 13 is the UN as it currently exists. After Anglo-America goes down in the future, the UN will become the Eighth king.

    Apparently what will happen is the GB will be doing something they shouldn't be, and the UN will call them out. That will be the beginning of Jerusalem being surrounded.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    I don't think you fully read my post, if you had you wouldn't have asked this question. Just like in 66-70CE there are two separate instances spoken of in Luke and Math, one when the city is surrounded as spoken of in Luke, and second when the disgusting thing stands in a holy place in Mathew. We know from history these events were separated by three and a half years, are you telling me this isn't true?


    Luke 21:20,21; “However, when you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near. Then let those in Ju·de′a begin fleeing to the mountains,"

    You will see in the scripture above that it is speaking of the moment Jerusalem was surrounded in 66CE. This was before the Disgusting Thing stood in a Holy Place three and a half years later as we see at Math 24:16; “Therefore, when you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken about by Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place (let the reader use discernment), then let those in Ju·de′a begin fleeing to the mountains."
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    Thanks Joshua.

    I really appreciate your insight into the timeline and connecting all of these scriptures together, your framework makes a lot of sense to me.

    We're probably in for a lot of surprises and re-alignments, but I reference your site once a week or so!

    edit: (say Joshua, I just went to your site again, you need to do some SEO man! get those titles filled with googleable keywords!)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 12, 2014
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Yes, I've told my story many times on here, but the short of it is, after coming across Roberts page many years ago, I noticed at one point he skewed from chronology, and it was that point on all I wanted was to know what Jehovah's will was, what his word actually says. Not wanting to prove your own theories and not being upset when your wrong for a lot of people can be difficult. I learned to enjoy finding out I was wrong. But, scripture explains itself and doesn't need us to impose our own ideas in order for it to do so. Besides, we can only understand Jehovah's will with his Spirit.

    I appreciate your participation on this forum. I always enjoy your comments and we are a much stronger community because of your presents, thanks...

    You know brother, I really don't have much knowledge of how to make my site searchable...lol I really don't have as much knowledge that way, it's surprising we've managed to keep our db in the shape it is...lol Looking for part time work? ;)
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    Yes, well said. No attachment to a particular prophetic view, just let the scriptures speak, and have faith reading through spirit - there is "what currently makes sense" and what doesn't.

    Humorously, the only thing I'm sure of is that we're going to have to re-align our thinking along the way! Pretty funny when you think about it.

    I would be happy to help SEO'ify your site - it's actually really easy, install the "Yoast SEO" Wordpress plugin and see what happens (its the 'popular' SEO plugin, and attempts to auto-configure your site).

    We can PM about this stuff, when you get some time.
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    I'm curious, where do you think Robert makes a timeline error?

    I haven't really read Robert from a critical perspective, always being more interested in clarification about the organization (which I agree with his analysis on) than putting his framework to the test.

    (I mean this with all due respect to Robert, I don't think anybody has a perfectly clear picture at this point)
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Robert has done a fine job getting the message out of the errors in the society with the UN relationship and the 1914 operation of error. In fact that was the very thing I was searching when I came across his site. It had been for years I tried to make sense of how the heaven high tree connected with the Gentile times, but anyway, I know Robert has said that his job was to get others thinking about these things, and working on furthering these prophecies, and his job was to get the message of the errors in the society to others.

    With that said, it was Dan 12:11 and Dan 11:30,31 while reading Roberts work that I noticed something. When I realized that Dan 12:11 was speaking about two separate instances separated by 1290 days, and that these two events were not the same event and moment, that's where my search began...

    You are very correct, no one has a perfect view, that is impossible in our state, however Jehovah's word amazes me every day with it's complexity and how many times I am continually surprised by pieces that fall together... :)
     
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    jehovahisgod

    jehovahisgod Experienced Member

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    you know I wish I could return to the kingdomhall as my home church.. but I disagree with attempting to explain the bibles every detail and what is supposed to happen.. it is enough for me that Jesus died and rose to pay for our sins and while we wait for him we are supposed to spread the simple gospel that god wants to forgive us and give us life if we turn from wickedness and follow Jesus.. it bugs me to death that Jesus never once told his disciples a lot of dates and such and concentrated on telling people to demonstrate love by showing kindness mercy and being physically helpfull. now today I'm supposed to be a walking talking bible library and rack up years publishing the how and why books of the bible..leaving me no time to show Jesus by what I do and all by what I say and preach.
     
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    Tsaphah

    Tsaphah Experienced Member

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    I don’t know why the Watchtower writing committee selected to use “catch sight ofâ€, for the Greek word used here. The word is horao, pronounced hor-ah’-o, and is from the word optanomai, from where we get the English word optometry, dealing with the eyes. It should not be translated as “catch sight ofâ€, but literally “to look atâ€. Whether by seeing visually or with the mind to recognize or perceive. Strong’s lexicon lists “3. to see, i.e. become acquainted with by experience, to experience.â€

    Frank, you are right in saying that you recognized what was going on. I did also, many years ago, in dealing with the governing body and others “standing in a position of authorityâ€. They were not being truthful.


     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    I would like to ask a few questions to those who believe the MOL is the disgusting thing.

    Why is the MOL "sitting" in the temple, while the disgusting thing is seen "standing"?

    Why would the disgusting thing be waiting to be revealed in our day if in 70CE there was no waiting to be revealed? The moment the disgusting thing entered the temple was the moment it was seen standing in a holy place. Is this not so?

    Why would the first century example be different then our day? Are you saying Rome was in the holy place in the first century before it entered the city, but was just waiting to be revealed in 70CE?

    How do you connect the MOL and the disgusting thing scripturaly?

    In the first century, was not the disgusting thing a nation? Why would that disgusting thing change over the centuries? Who do you say Rome is today?

    Daniel 11:30,31 you have the constant feature being removed and then the disgusting thing stands in a holy place. What was the "constant feature" that has been removed already in order for the disgusting thing to be in the holy place?
     

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