Josh, What is the temple of The GOD??? Is the MOL currently sitting there??? If YES when did he begin to sit there??? If NO, when is he due to sit there? Who is the MOL??? What is the operation of error/the lie??? A: Is the MOL secretly in the temple sitting there until he is revealed??? If so, how does he publicly show himself to be a God before he is relvealed??? B: Is when the MOL sits down in the temple to publicly show himself to be a god, the time of his revealing? What does the judgment result in for believing the lie/operation of error??? Don’t refer to something you wrote in regards to, just put quick simple answers!!!
Are you one who believes that the disgusting thing is the MOL? Why do you respond to my questions with more questions if so? Keep in mind, you put me in a position to imply a belief on my part. I generally try to steer clear of applying personal beliefs because the bible generally does not need us to explain itself. But in order to answer your question, I would have too. It's not a surprise to most on here, but I wanted to make it clear before I answered. Just like in the year 66CE the temple is Jehovah's house of worship and men dedicated to him. And I believe that to be Jehovah's Witnesses led by the Governing Body. The MOL's example can be seen in Judas. He is a man in the close nit group of Jesus brothers and is a man who will be one of the GB. Is he sitting there now? Who knows, he hasn't been revealed yet. Who knows, hence the state of Judas was in at the last supper. Up to the very night Jesus was to be arrested, did any of the other brothers know he was a trader? Yet he was right in their midst. Is he there now? Will it be future? Who knows, he hasn't been revealed. Sense I believe Jehovah's people are Gods people then that one will be a GB member. The 1914 doctrine. Yes, he will be unknown just as Judas was unknown until he was revealed. He shows himself to be a god just as all the other GB members do. After all their new street they plan to move to will be named "Kings Dr". 1Cor 4:8; "Already you have all you want! Already you have become rich! You have begun to reign--and that without us! How I wish that you really had begun to reign so that we also might reign with you!" Obviously not. The scriptures you quoted in 2Th shows clearly that the MOL is not revealed the moment he sits down, he is waiting to be revealed which obviously means he is sitting there before he is revealed. Whether or not he's there now or not... Captivity into Babylon...
Are you not understanding what I was saying there? I will explain again. There are two separate events spoken of in Luke and Mathew. These to events were separated by three and a half years from 66-70CE. The first occurred in 66CE when Jerusalem was surrounded by Rome. Those in Judea were told to flea. Notice the verse in Luke says that Jerusalem was about to be destroyed, but that it hadn't yet been. Luke 21:20,21; “However, when you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near. Then let those in Ju·de′a begin fleeing to the mountains," The second moment spoken of in Mathew was three and a half years after Jerusalem was encircled by Rome. Now this scripture below in Mathew is speaking of when Rome actually entered the holy place when entering the city in 70CE. Math 24:16; “Therefore, when you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken about by Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place (let the reader use discernment), then let those in Ju·de′a begin fleeing to the mountains." These two events were separate and distinct events that were separated by three and a half years. The only similarity to them is the fact that Judea is told to flee. Although Luke is telling those in Judea that the disgusting thing is coming... Now, as to (what I believe to be your other question). The beast in Rev 13 in it's current form will encircle spiritual Jerusalem removing the constant feature. That constant feature is the WTS. Now during the time of the end that beast in Rev 13 will go down into the abyss and will rise out of the abyss in Rev 17. It's that entity that will enter the holy place 30 days after it has been restored when Jesus is enthroned and holy spirit poured out. Answer your questions?
Doesn’t the lie eminate from the MOL??? If 1914 is the lie, then doesn’t that make C.T. Russel the oringaial MOL??? 1914 started with him and any and all after him have just kept the 1914 lie going. And since this lie was started by the one that started the WTS and therefore has been with this group of people that you feel are God’s people, then how/what made them to be God’s people??? You say that “Captivity into Babylon...†is the jugdment for believeing the lie. Then what about those that do not believe it, will they be captive to Babylon too??? Those are some strong statements in regards to a group of people that are said to be in the truth and be God’s people. Are you sure that the lie isn’t in regards to the counterfeit kingdom??? Are not people judged based on supporting it??? What is this said apostasy??? P.S. We can't call it the "operation of error" any more, the WTS now refers to it as "a deluding influence". 11 That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie,+
Basically, John and Joshua, your disagreement is over this: Are Jehovah's Witnesses serving as the spiritual version of Israel or not? If so: MOL is a GB member, or spirit within that tier of leadership. If not: who knows, maybe the "World Council of Churches" or something. (and about infinite other options)
I had to change the order of your post in my reply to put this comment first. And I have to say, wow, I hadn't noticed that yet. I prefer even the King James over this verse, although I would have to look into the original text more before forming an opinion. 2Th doesn't' say that. 2Th 2:11 simply says that God allows the "operation of error" or "strong delusion" or "deluding influence" to mislead them. The scripture says their actions are the reason he has let the "operation of error" mislead them. You can't read into anything in 2Th that says the "operation of error" comes directly from the MOL. It would have to be there, and it isn't. Again, there is no way to connect the "operation of error" with the MOL. Let's look at verse 9; "But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonder." The powerful work and lying signs and wonders are by the operation of Satan, not the MOL. So therefore the operation of error was from Satan and allowed by Jehovah, but that the "operation of error" cannot be narrowed down to a specific time that it was allowed to creep in, because verse 9 says the lying signs were from Satan. The Jews sinned many times, but that didn't change the fact they were the chosen people. It was the fact that they had accurate knowledge of who he was that made them his people. All of scripture teaches that. Nope, those who do not believe in the 1914 doctrine will not be surprised will they? You and I will not be surprised when the world brings down the society before Babylon the great, (which the society teaches is the next prophecy to occur, that of Babylon being destroyed). Will we not be overjoyed knowing that Jerusalem's destruction is near? Why was Jerusalem surrounded in 66CE? Because of their "operation of error", no? I would definitely consider any information, but I'm not exactly sure what your asking here. I do believe the witnesses have the truth of what scripture teaches about new heavens and a new earth, and I believe that is the kingdom Jesus rules over... As to people being judged, you have to remember, again, there are two moments discussed in scripture that everyone always clumps into one. The moment Jerusalem is surrounded/constant feature removed/courtyard trampled/captivity into Babylon, is a different moment from when the disgusting thing stands in a holy place/eighth king comes to destroy Gods people/touching Jehovah's eyeball, and these two events are separated by 1290 days. Brother, look at Daniel 12:12, look at Luke 21:20, Mathew 24:16. Look at the first century when Rome came against Jerusalem. All the information is there. The city was surrounded just like it says in Luke 21, then three and a half years later the disgusting thing entered the temple. Brother, the moment the disgusting thing entered the temple, that was the end game. There was no hiding, there was no cover up, nothing was needed to be out of the way to reveal it and there was nothing after. The disgusting thing in a holy place is the end game, the moment Jehovah brings destruction on the Eighth king... Now that is a good question. I know you approach subjects by asking questions and then put everything in prospective, and I'm starting to get use to that, but you always seem to be the only one to finally get to a subject that I wonder about sometimes. Thanks... To me it "seems" that the apostasy is mentioned to occur at the same moment as the revealing of the MOL, let me post the verse; "because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed," To me it reads that these two events occur at the same moment, now however, Roberts thought on this is that the relationship between the UN and the WTS is that apostasy. Now I'm not opposed to that since that has occurred before the MOL has been revealed, so the jury is still out on that with me and the identity of the apostasy...
Agreed, and this subject is more about opinion then any other subject I've discussed on our db. So we can really keep this one light... Good on ya SingleCell... Can always count on you to break the air... All love in Jehovah's spirit...
I understand what you wrote and I disagree with it. This scenario can't be possible ! Both verses, that is Mat. 24:16 and Luke 21:20-21, talk about the very same event. They both foretell the GT, that it is cut short and Luke even says that the appointed times of the nations will follow. Jesus' words in Mat, Mark and Luke are chronologically synchronized and we can't select one out and say that it'll take place a long time later, according to God's calendar. According to your chronology, the DT is set up in the Temple after Jesus' coming in the clouds and the gathering of his brothers. That can't be possible. The latter ones will be in heaven by then and the Temple will be the real one. That entity will be on earth, just as Satan will, and nobody anymore will be able to threaten it. Furthermore, if Mat. 24 is talking about the DT being set up and exhorts those in Judea to flee, how those in Judea would have to flee twice ? And who are "those in Judea" if not Christ's brothers and why should they flee the heavenly Temple or anything considered as holy ?
So let me get this straight. Your saying in the Jewish war that the same moment Jerusalem was surrounded by Rome was the same moment Rome entered the holy place? So you must be saying that Rome never encircled the city in 66ce, then entered the holy place three and a half years later in 70ce? That's not what I read in history. We don't have to take anything out of anywhere. Nor do we need to apply our own understanding at all. All we need to do is look at history. We have these events in Luke and Mathew to look back on because they already happened. It's really pretty simple. First the city was surrounded by Rome. Luke 21:20,21; “However, when you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near. Then let those in Ju·de′a begin fleeing to the mountains," Pretty simple is it not? This happened in 66ce. We don't need to apply anything of our own knowledge or understanding. This event in Luke has already occurred, and was it not three and a half years before the verse in Mathew? Math 24:16; “Therefore, when you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken about by Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place (let the reader use discernment), then let those in Ju·de′a begin fleeing to the mountains." I would think this is pretty clear. Rome entered the city in 70ce. That was again, years after it had been surrounded. Of course Luke speaks of the appointed times of the nations after Jerusalem is surrounded. Because there are three and a half years for the appointed time of the nations after she is surrounded before Rome enters the city, the disgusting thing being placed. It's really pretty simple. Not so... Jesus is enthroned at the end of the 42 months, holy spirit is poured out and the dead in Christ resurrected. But this is not the moment he comes in the clouds and collects his chosen. That happens many days later, in fact over a month later. Not so brother. If you will remember Rev 6:11; "And a white robe was given to each of them, and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they had been" Remember Rev 14; "Here is where it calls for endurance on the part of the holy ones, those who keep the commandments of God and hold fast to the faith of Jesus.†And I heard a voice out of heaven say, “Write: Happy are the dead who die in union with the Lord from this time onward. Yes, says the spirit, let them rest from their labors, for the things they did go right with them.†Now the "endurance" of the holy ones comes after Babylon goes down in the beginning of chapter 14. It says, "those who die from this point on", this scripture is speaking of sons of God, that will die, after Jesus was enthroned and holy spirit poured out. The dead are the ones who are resurrected and told to wait, just as Jesus waited on earth before being raised to heaven. It's the "we" who are living that will be changed who will be killed. Remember it's not till after the two witnesses finish their work are they killed. That's after the 42 months. Just like Stephen there will still be some whom after they are changed will be killed. As a quick note, this is my opinion at the moment but it is quite likely this is the reason for all the 40's in the bible, that in fact the sons of God will be waiting 40 days before they are raised to heaven after Jesus is enthroned and after being resurrected or changed, depending on if they were alive or not. There is no fleeing twice. There is simply two reminders to flee. In 66ce when the city was surrounded it would have served as a warning to Jesus brothers to flee, because the desolating of her had drawn near. Now, if they had not heeded that warning then most certainly they should heed it the moment Rome entered the city or they would physically be killed. In our day it's the same thing. There will be a moment spiritual Jerusalem will be surrounded by Rome, and that is a warning to us to know that the desolating of her has drawn near. Then 1290 days later, which are 30 days after Jesus is enthroned Rome enters the holy place, which will mean, comes against Jesus brothers still here on earth in the flesh, but changed. And the warning to flee will again be to flee from physical death. Both events are the same, there's no difference. All one needs to do is read Daniel chapter 12. In that chapter is the complete brake down of this chronology. It says the time, times, and half a times begin. Then from the moment those times begin till 1290 days later, the disgusting thing is set up. Which means the disgusting thing is set up 30 days after the 1260 days/42 months end. Then 45 days later is the first day of the new world. This has nothing to do with my own understanding, it's all there in Dan 12, and the rest of the bible confirms what's written there. We can go on and on about what's impossible, but all things are possible through Jehovah, and it's his will and timetable we seek, not our own. Math 19:26; "Looking at them intently, Jesus said to them: “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.â€
You say that the"operation of error" is 1914 and you say that the MOL is the GB. 1914 eminates from the GB, therefore "operation of error" eminates from the MOL. Also I just wanted to clear up at this time our use of term "operation of error" and “the lieâ€. Apparently, “the lie†is what our focus should be on. The so-called "operation of error" or "strong delusion" is only what is done/said in order to make “the lie†believable and to perpetuate it. [Example, the counterfeit kingdom is a lie and the lying signs and wonders and every powerful work and and portents with every unrighteous deception to mislead those who dwell on the earth is the"strong delusion" the causes that lie to be believed.] Think about this lie that you say is in regards to 1914. And think about the fact that it is JW’s whom believe it, which you believe JW’s are God’s people. There are around 7 million JW’s alive today (maybe a little over), how many of them believe the 1914 lie? What about every JW that has died since the founding of the WTS, how many of them died believing the 1914 lie? In regards to ALL those JW’s that believe that lie, it is said that the strong delusion is what helps in putting forth this lie, so that they get to believing the lie, but because they do believe “the lie†they all will be judged because they did not accept the love of the truth that they might be saved, they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness. If the lie is really in regards to 1914 then what is the truth that they didn’t believe???
(Daniel 8:11,12) And all the way to the Prince of the army it put on great airs, and from him the constant [feature] was taken away, and the established place of his sanctuary was thrown down.[SUP] [/SUP]And an army itself was gradually given over, together with the constant [feature], because of transgression; and it kept throwing truth to the earth, and it acted and had success. New American Standard Bible (Daniel 8:11,12) It even magnified itself to be equal with the Commander of the host; and it removed the regular sacrifice from Him, and the place of His sanctuary was thrown down. And on account of transgression the host will be given over to the horn along with the regular sacrifice; and it will fling truth to the ground and perform its will and prosper. (Daniel 12:11)[SUP] [/SUP]“And from the time that the constant [feature] has been removed and there has been a placing of the disgusting thing that is causing desolation, there will be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. New American Standard Bible (Daniel 12:11) "From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. (Daniel 11:31) And there will be arms that will stand up, proceeding from him; and they will actually profane the sanctuary, the fortress, and remove the constant [feature]. And they will certainly put in place the disgusting thing that is causing desolation. New American Standard Bible (Daniel 11:31) "Forces from him will arise, desecrate the sanctuary fortress, and do away with the regular sacrifice. And they will set up the abomination of desolation. Matthew 24:[SUP]15[/SUP] “Therefore, when YOU catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place, (let the reader use discernment,) [SUP]16[/SUP] then let those in Ju·de´a begin fleeing to the mountains. [SUP]17[/SUP] Let the man on the housetop not come down to take the goods out of his house; [SUP]18[/SUP] and let the man in the field not return to the house to pick up his outer garment. [SUP]19[/SUP] Woe to the pregnant women and those suckling a baby in those days! [SUP]20[/SUP] Keep praying that YOUR flight may not occur in wintertime, nor on the sabbath day; [SUP]21[/SUP] for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again. [SUP]22[/SUP] In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short. In Matthew’s account above when one sees the DT in the holy place they are to begin fleeing. Why? Because soon after the GT will begin and then will end/be cut short. If one were to go by your reasoning, you have the DT coming into the holy place AFTER the GT/42 months ends.
The truth that Jesus is King perhaps? The GB 'teaches the fear of God as the commands of men' ('false prophecy' and 'commands of men' prophesied in Isaiah 29) This gets to the heart of the matter, we don't need a priest class (GB) to provide an interface to Jehovah through Christ, it is Christ who is the head of man. The MOL sets himself up as a God in the 'temple of the true God' (this precludes the trinity churches, IMO, since they effectively worship a different God than Jehovah). Those who know Jehovah and 'call on his name' accept an idol (MOL, and 'deluding influence') between man and Christ. That strikes me as the 'lie' predicated on the 1914 understanding. (Ezekiel 13, Isaiah 30) The 'golden calf' (MOL) as a false representative of Jehovah. It seems to me that Joshua is on target, because of these precepts: The 'trinity' Nicean churches worship a Babylonian God (hmm, perhaps this is too harsh), and effectively call God a monster with their 'eternal torment' doctrine The Jehovah's Witnesses know the true God, and proclaim his kingdom The Jehovah's Witnesses have allowed a 'deluding influence' in the form of the 'anointed' GB The other churches will certainly engage in war for their nations (the mainstream churches at least, non-denominational and Seventh Day Adventists will likely reject this like the JWs will), effectively rejecting Christ's kingdom Jehovah's Witnesses will certainly not engage in the coming war, instead proclaim the kingdom If you accept these precepts, than there isn't much wiggle room about what the 'temple of the true God' is. The only way to logically invalidate this understanding (IMO) is a future shift whereby the Christian churches get out from the 'church fathers' and their apostate teachings, and actually read the Bible.
I am going to highlight what you are missing; (Daniel 12:11)“And from the time that the constant [feature] has been removed and there has been a placing of the disgusting thing that is causing desolation, there will be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. This scripture is speaking of a time period between these two events. Why do you think it says 1290 days? What do you think those days are? They are the time table between the two events. Daniel 12:11 (CEB) | In Context | Whole Chapter "11 There will be one thousand two hundred ninety days from the time the daily sacrifice is stopped to the setting up of the desolating monstrosity." Daniel 12:11 (CEV) | In Context|Whole Chapter "11 There will be one thousand two hundred ninety days from the time that the daily sacrifices are stopped, until someone sets up the “Horrible Thing†that causes destruction." Daniel 12:11 (ERV) | In Context | Whole Chapter "11 “The daily sacrifice will be stopped. There will be 1290 days from that time until the time that the terrible thing that destroys is set up." Daniel 12:11 (EXB) | In Context | Whole Chapter "11 “The ·daily [regular] sacrifice [8:12] will be ·stopped [turned away]. Then, after 1,290 days from that time, ·a blasphemous object that brings destruction [L the abomination of desolation; 11:31] will be set up." Daniel 12:11 (NCV) | In Context | Whole Chapter "11 “The daily sacrifice will be stopped. Then, after 1,290 days from that time, a blasphemous object that brings destruction will be set up."
That's impossible ! unless the holy place in question isn't Jerusalem and/or the Temple, the old and the new one included. Even if we consider the prophecy recorded in Micah 4:9-5:4, the Assyrian (modern Sennacherib/Belial) will come against Jerusalem but will take a hiding. Sennacherib's soldiers didn't even shoot an arrow against Jerusalem's walls... Once Babylon has fallen, Jerusalem and its Temple will never be taken and occupied anymore. Never ever... That's a fact !
It may not fit into someones current understanding, but that's exactly what scripture teaches. Once Jesus is enthroned and holy spirit poured out, the holy place will be made up of Jesus brothers here on earth. Whether they will have a physical location, like a building, I don't know. This system goes on after the 42 months end. You completely overlook the fact that Rev in two places says that the holy ones would still be killed after the dead in Christ are resurrected, and after Jesus is enthroned. Jesus is seen with a crown in the first seal, at the fifth the dead are resurrected and told their brothers will be killed. In Rev 14 it tells us Babylon goes down, then after that it tells us the holy ones were still going to be killed after that. Why do you ignore what's said? The holy place is returned from captivity at the end of the 42 months, however the Eighth king enters it 30 days later. Then 75 days after the holy place is established back from captivity the holy place will be brought into it's right condition at the end of the 2300 days.
Matthew 24:15“Therefore, when YOU catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place, (let the reader use discernment,) 16 then let those in Ju·de´a begin fleeing to the mountains. 17 Let the man on the housetop not come down to take the goods out of his house; 18 and let the man in the field not return to the house to pick up his outer garment. 19 Woe to the pregnant women and those suckling a baby in those days! 20 Keep praying that YOUR flight may not occur in wintertime, nor on the sabbath day; 21 for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again. 22 In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NNOrp_83RU
Exactly, after Jesus is enthroned it will be the worst time for mankind. Wars and pestilences. Just a mess. Do you know what Mathew 24:29,30 is saying? “Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." After the tribulation, "after". The nations will still exist. It's after the tribulation that Jesus comes in the clouds to gather his chosen. And the nations will see this... Not sure if you were trying to make a point, but the verses you posted still confirm prophecy, the DT stands in a holy place after the 42 months. 30 days after to be exact.
The great tribulation will be about 40 days long, if not exactly. Actually, that most likely is the case, sense it's quite likely after being resurrected it's likely that there will be 40 days before the sons of God are raised, so Jesus comes to gather his chosen ones after the DT stands in a holy place. So that would be 10 days after that occurs. So it looks like the great tribulation is 40 days long. Nice job guys, thanks for bringing that to my attention.