I see where your missing it brother. The great tribulation doesn't begin until the 42 months are over. They begin the moment Jesus is enthroned, not at the beginning of the 42 months. Hence the two separate events. One when Jerusalem is surrounded, the second when the holy place is entered. I am going to highlight what you are missing; (Daniel 12:11)“And from the time that the constant [feature] has been removed and there has been a placing of the disgusting thing that is causing desolation, there will be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. This scripture is speaking of a time period between these two events. Why do you think it says 1290 days? What do you think those days are? They are the time table between the two events. Daniel 12:11 (CEB) | In Context | Whole Chapter "11 There will be one thousand two hundred ninety days from the time the daily sacrifice is stopped to the setting up of the desolating monstrosity." Daniel 12:11 (CEV) | In Context|Whole Chapter "11 There will be one thousand two hundred ninety days from the time that the daily sacrifices are stopped, until someone sets up the “Horrible Thing†that causes destruction." Daniel 12:11 (ERV) | In Context | Whole Chapter "11 “The daily sacrifice will be stopped. There will be 1290 days from that time until the time that the terrible thing that destroys is set up." Daniel 12:11 (EXB) | In Context | Whole Chapter "11 “The ·daily [regular] sacrifice [8:12] will be ·stopped [turned away]. Then, after 1,290 days from that time, ·a blasphemous object that brings destruction [L the abomination of desolation; 11:31] will be set up." Daniel 12:11 (NCV) | In Context | Whole Chapter "11 “The daily sacrifice will be stopped. Then, after 1,290 days from that time, a blasphemous object that brings destruction will be set up."
Aaahh ok ok ! So the Two Witnesses are killed and Jesus comes in the clouds before the GT ? Thus the GT is among one of the last things to take place during the time of the end ? Now, you've lost me for good...
No, Jesus is enthroned the day the 42 months end, dead in Christ are resurrected. The two witnesses are killed three days later. Three days after that they are resurrected and the world hears the judgement coming on them, the messages in all the inhabit earth. 30 days after Jesus is enthroned the DT stands in a holy place. Then 10 days after that Jesus comes in the clouds. The GT lasts from the day Jesus is enthroned until he comes in the clouds.
This is a really interesting graphic. We should put scripture references next to each item; the diagram makes sense from my own reasoning, but it would be nice to have scripture support. Did you make that Joshua? It would be a good resource to show other JWs who are interested, because it's clear that BTG's collapse is a waaaaays off. (once the scriptures are documented for reference)
You do know that in the scriptures you quoted here in Micah, they do say that after Jerusalem is collected back to Jehovah, after their captivity, the nations will come against them, right? Micah 4:10,11; "You will go as far as to Babylon, And there you will be rescued; There Jehovah will buy you back from the hand of your enemies. Now many nations will be gathered against you; They will say, ‘Let her be defiled, And let our eyes see this happen to Zion.’"
No it's OK, I can photoshop it, and I'll use your site as a reference No need to dump work on you, and it will give me an opportunity to really go through this!
Fellow lurker orchid here, scriptures on that would definitely be nice. (on a personal note, I try not to get into prophesy debating, who am I to decipher it all? however, whats been said in this post has actually been encouraging, thought-provoking, reminded me that I just need to get in there, re-read everything for myself, lol, albeit being of opinion, taking with a grain of salt, thank you) Orchid
Yes, but it's not said that they will succeed because Jehovah and his armies will thwart their plans (Ps 2). There are tons of biblical verses to prove it. I repeat, never ever will Jerusalem and the Temple be taken and occupied anymore by an army after they are restored. That's also a fact because the defeat and the death of the Two Witnesses will only be in seeming, as they'll be resurrected 3,5 days later. As for the GT, I see no reason to change my mind about it.
I'm not saying that you're wrong on everything. There are very interesting details in your "work". There are just basic premises that, in my opinion, cannot be avoided and circumvented. In case it might help you, if my memory serves me well, Robert wrote something in his book about the golden image in the plain of Doura, which you will find in Dn 3. I'm busy on something else right now and am sorry because I don't have the time to look for it and quote passages here.
Of course they wont succeed, Jesus is king and Jehovah comes to destroy the nations at that point. But that doesn't change the fact that the nations come against Jerusalem after it is restored. That means this system goes on after it's restored, and Jesus's brothers are killed. Not sure what you mean by "seaming". The three days they are dead cannot be connected to the 42 months at all, and those three days come after the 42 months end. They are physically killed "literally" after the 42 months. I mean, that's what it says after all, does it not? All we want is Jehovah's will, his truth, his understanding...
1) I never said that the nations wouldn't come against Jerusalem and its Temple (even though....) or that the system wouldn't go on for a while after they're both restored. I just said that they both would never be taken and occupied anymore, never ever. You said that the DT will stand in a holy place, the future Temple, which means that they'll succeed, according to you. If you say that they won't succeed, they won't but your interpretation says that the DT will profane the Temple, therefore they'll succeed, still according to you. I don't see how they wouldn't succeed if they manage to profane the spiritual Temple... If they manage to profane the Temple, then they'll take and occupy it... and I disagree with it because it's unscriptural. 2) I'm not talking about the 42 months, or about the 3,5 days or whether they're killed literally or not. I just said that the beast will "think" having defeated the Two Witnesses for good (Rv 11:10) but that defeat will only be on human grounds as they'll be resurrected against all odds, just like Jesus (1 John 5:4, John 14:30) was. Satan killed all hope for mankind on human grounds when Jesus died but Jehovah raising him up defeated Satan for good. As a result, the death of the Two Witnesses (of whoever them both may represent) cannot be counted as a defeat like the destruction of Jerusalem and its Temple will be.
Give us scriptures showing that after the captives come back from Babylon and when they are attacked they will not succeed in anything. I can't concede to the fact that sons of God are to be killed after Babylon falls because that's exactly what is discussed in Rev 14. At this point it seems to me we are now at a point where we could work together and figure out what exactly is the "holy place" at this point given the chronology. So, there is no doubt that the DT stands in a holy place after the captives are returned to Jehovah. So the question is, what does that mean? I have held that, that means these come against the remaining ones of Jesus's brothers. Because after all we know when they come against his people it will be like touching Jehovah's eyeball at that moment, but I'm open to suggestions on this subject. My work has always been chronology. It just so happens chronology is the only way to figure out what each event within that chronology is. So, with that said. Is this "standing in a holy place" when the Eighth king tells everyone to worship it? To put itself on the side of Gog? Gathered for Armageddon? I'm open to this subject because you make a point. However, we must remember that it would not have been said that Rome entered the holy place unless Jehovah thought it was his holy place. Also keep in mind that the first century fulfillment only works up to this moment because now we are talking about the moment the DT enters the temple. In the first century that ended that event. In our day we know events continue after, like Jehovah intervening. And as I'm typing I just thought that maybe that's where the "cutting those days short" comes in. If he would not cut short the moment the DT stands in a holy place, none of the sons of God would survive, (and that might very well be it!) because it says, "on account of the holy ones" it will be cut short! So that might very well be the answer. The DT stands in the true temple but that Jehovah cuts those days short to keep from what happened in 70CE... I think that very well may be it...
That is the case!!! The last time that an army will come upon Jehovah’s people it will result in refining his people during that time, then when it has done its job the people get restored and the army will be destroyed. That said, there is significance in saying that an army will come against God’s people after they have been collected back together. The last time (as just mentioned above) that any army comes against God’s people it will be that of Joel’s account (and any account that is Joel’s parallel). Due to that calamity the people will be restored and brought back down on the low plain which will also be the time that Jehovah will collect the nations together to pour out his judgments against them, on account of his people. No attack will come on his people after this (refer back to Joel 3:17); in fact the nations are done away with at this time down on the low plain. But what about where I said that there is significance in saying that an army will come against God’s people after they have been collected back together. Well, how is it that these people came together in the first place? How is it that there are a people that are around to be trampled on/go into captivity/exile??? They where collected together at an earlier point. Those that believe the Jews are still God’s people will say they were gathered back in 1948. So if that is the case then at some point a calamity (Northerner/Gog) will come upon them/Ariel. Those that believe JW’s are God’s people would then refer to the preaching work that has gather together a group of people out of all nations. So if that is the case then at some point a calamity (Northerner/Gog) will come upon JW’s/Ariel. Those that believe Christianity as a whole make up God’s people…then etc. Anyway, the point is, the attack does come upon God’s people after they have been gathered/collected together but it is the first time they were collected together. Then when the attack is stopped from divine intervention, the refined ones will be gathered back and no attack will come again upon them.
Zech 14:1 “Look! The day is coming, a day belonging to Jehovah, when the spoil from you will be divided in your midst. I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for the war; and the city will be captured and the houses plundered and the women raped. And half of the city will go into exile, but the remaining ones of the people will not be cut off from the city. Jehovah will go out and war against those nations as when he fights in the day of a battle." Just a note of reference, Joel 3:17 is speaking of after the 2300 days when the holy place is brought into its right condition, the first day of the new world. After the captives come back from Babylonian captivity, they are attacked after Babylon is destroyed by the Eighth king. Jehovah then intervenes, cutting short the GT...
Even your WTS knows it is the “last timeâ€. It seems that the scriptures you cited only confirms what I said. I know you can’t claim that account is not the counterpart of Gog’s attack. That said, then it will have to match up with what is said in Ezekiel. So the ones above that are speaking of, as the half that go into exile would be the ones that the refining work did no good because they are the wood materials, hay, and stubble people. The remaining ones that will not be cut off from the city must be the captive ones that are brought back. They are the gold, silver, and precious stones people. Ezekiel 38:10-12,14-16) [SUP]10[/SUP] “This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, ‘And it must occur in that day that things will come up into your heart, and you will certainly think up an injurious scheme; [SUP]11[/SUP] and you must say: “I shall go up against the land of open rural country. I shall come in upon those having no disturbance, dwelling in security, all of them dwelling without wall, and they do not have even bar and doors.†[SUP]12[/SUP] It will be to get a big spoil and to do much plundering, in order to turn your hand back upon devastated places reinhabited and upon a people gathered together out of the nations, [one] that is accumulating wealth and property, [those] who are dwelling in the center of the earth…[SUP] 14[/SUP] “Therefore prophesy, O son of man, and you must say to Gog, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: “Will it not be in that day when my people Israel are dwelling in security that you will know [it]? [SUP]15[/SUP] And you will certainly come from your place, from the remotest parts of the north, you and many peoples with you, all of them riding on horses, a great congregation, even a numerous military force. [SUP]16[/SUP] And you will be bound to come up against my people Israel, like clouds to cover the land. In the final part of the days it will occur, and I shall certainly bring you against my land, for the purpose that the nations may know me when I sanctify myself in you before their eyes, O Gog.â€â€˜ Ezekiel 39:[SUP]23[/SUP] And the nations will have to know that it was because of their error that they, the house of Israel, went into exile, on account of the fact that they behaved unfaithfully toward me, so that I concealed my face from them and gave them into the hand of their adversaries, and they kept falling, all of them, by the sword. [SUP]24[/SUP] According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions I did with them, and I kept concealing my face from them.’[SUP]25[/SUP] “Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, ‘Now is when I shall bring back the captive ones of Jacob and actually have mercy upon all the house of Israel; and I will show exclusive devotion for my holy name. [SUP]26[/SUP] And they will have borne their humiliation and all their unfaithfulness with which they have acted toward me, when they dwell on their soil in security, with no one to make [them] tremble. [SUP]27[/SUP] When I bring them back from the peoples and I actually collect them together out of the lands of their enemies, I will also sanctify myself among them before the eyes of many nations.’[SUP]28[/SUP] “‘And they will have to know that I am Jehovah their God, when I send them in exile to the nations and actually bring them together upon their soil, so that I shall leave none of them remaining there any longer. [SUP]29[/SUP] And I shall no longer conceal my face from them, because I will pour out my spirit upon the house of Israel,’ is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah.†Joel 2:17: “Do feel sorry, O Jehovah, for your people, and do not make your inheritance a reproach, for nations to rule over them. Why should they say among the peoples: ‘Where is their God?’†Joel 3:1 “For, look! in those days and in that time, when I shall bring back the captive ones of Judah and Jerusalem, [SUP]2[/SUP] I will also collect together all the nations and bring them down to the low plain of Je·hosh´a·phat; and I will put myself on judgment with them there on account of my people and my inheritance Israel, whom they scattered among the nations; and they apportioned out my own land. [SUP]3[/SUP]And for my people they kept casting lots; and they would give the male child for a prostitute, and the female child they sold for wine, that they might drink. 6-1-81 WT- Joel 3 2-16, 19 It tells us why Jehovah is angry with the nations—because of the way they have treated his servants. They scattered them among the nations, making slaves of them. Also, they robbed Jehovah’s temple of its gold, silver and other desirable things, and brought these into their own temples. They did violence to the sons of Judah and shed innocent blood. Quote from Ciro Aulicino speaking about Gog’s attack. “What the Future Holds†talk- Joel 1:17 Dried figs have shriveled under their shovels. Storehouses have been laid desolate. Barns have been torn down, for [the] grain has dried up. 18 O how the domestic animal has sighed! [How] the droves of cattle have wandered in confusion! For there is no pasturage for them.20The beasts of the field also keep longing for you, because the channels of water have dried up, and fire itself has devoured the pasture grounds of the wilderness.â€
Zech 14:1 is describing a time after Jehovah's people are gathered back to him from captivity, right at Armageddon, "day of Jehovah"... I just wasn't sure if you were making that point.
What I think you are still missing is what I keep saying over and over. There are two events. One when Jerusalem is surrounded, the second when the DT comes against Gods people after they have been gathered back from captivity. These two attacks are distinct and separate...