I only say something because you keep mixing scriptures together that pertain to these two separate events 1290 days apart, and you keep trying to make them the same event, they are not. It's too late to go scripture by scripture, but brother, there are 1290 days between two attacks on Jerusalem.
Do you not see the paradox in your thinking when you quote Joel that says no stranger will ever pass through Jerusalem again, yet you quote Zechariah as well as Joel that say after Jerusalem is gathered back from captivity then she will be attacked? Do you not pause and say, "wait, what's going on here?"
- What is holy ? Joel 3:17 "Then you will know that I, the Lord your God, dwell in Zion, my holy hill. Jerusalem will be holy; never again will foreigners invade her." A footnote in the Bible du Semeur for Joel 4:17 says : "Under the old covenant, only the Temple was considered as a holy place. Joel announces the extension of this holiness to the whole city. This means that God's presence will be everywhere therein. This extension corresponds to the widening of the gift of spirit to all the members of God's people." - verses ? Zech 12:1-6 NIV "This is the word of the Lord concerning Israel. The Lord, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the spirit of man within him, declares: "I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. On that day I will strike every horse with panic and its rider with madness," declares the Lord. "I will keep a watchful eye over the house of Judah, but I will blind all the horses of the nations. Then the leaders of Judah will say in their hearts, 'The people of Jerusalem are strong, because the Lord Almighty is their God.' "On that day I will make the leaders of Judah like a brazier in a woodpile, like a flaming torch among sheaves. They will consume right and left all the surrounding peoples, but Jerusalem will remain intact in her place." Jer 31:7-12 - NIV "This is what the Lord says: "Sing with joy for Jacob; shout for the foremost of the nations. Make your praises heard, and say, 'O Lord, save your people, the remnant of Israel.' See, I will bring them from the land of the north and gather them from the ends of the earth. Among them will be the blind and the lame, expectant mothers and women in labour; a great throng will return. They will come with weeping; they will pray as I bring them back. I will lead them beside streams of water on a level path where they will not stumble, because I am Israel's father, and Ephraim is my firstborn son. "Hear the word of the Lord, O nations; proclaim it in distant coastlands: 'He who scattered Israel will gather them and will watch over his flock like a shepherd.' For the Lord will ransom Jacob and redeem them from the hand of those stronger than they. They will come and shout for joy on the heights of Zion; they will rejoice in the bounty of the Lord — the grain, the new wine and the oil, the young of the flocks and herds. They will be like a well-watered garden, and they will sorrow no more." As for other biblical verses, I have already quoted some in previous posts. At a pinch, your scenario might be tenable if we consider that Ez. 38 is a prophecy which has a twofold fulfillments, along with the precedent established by what Sennacherib and his army did before reaching Jerusalem's walls. They didn't go right towards Jerusalem. After having devastated Israel, they devastated Judah too and it's only when Sennacherib threatened Jerusalem that Jehovah intervened. Isa 10:12-14 - NIV "When the Lord has finished all his work against Mount Zion and Jerusalem, he will say, "I will punish the king of Assyria for the wilful pride of his heart and the haughty look in his eyes. For he says: "'By the strength of my hand I have done this, and by my wisdom, because I have understanding. I removed the boundaries of nations, I plundered their treasures; like a mighty one I subdued their kings. As one reaches into a nest, so my hand reached for the wealth of the nations; as men gather abandoned eggs, so I gathered all the countries; not one flapped a wing, or opened its mouth to chirp.'" Isa 30:27-33 - NIV "See, the Name of the Lord comes from afar, with burning anger and dense clouds of smoke; his lips are full of wrath, and his tongue is a consuming fire. His breath is like a rushing torrent, rising up to the neck. He shakes the nations in the sieve of destruction; he places in the jaws of the peoples a bit that leads them astray. And you will sing as on the night you celebrate a holy festival; your hearts will rejoice as when people go up with flutes to the mountain of the Lord, to the Rock of Israel. The Lord will cause men to hear his majestic voice and will make them see his arm coming down with raging anger and consuming fire, with cloudburst, thunderstorm and hail. The voice of the Lord will shatter Assyria; with his sceptre he will strike them down. Every stroke the Lord lays on them with his punishing rod will be to the music of tambourines and harps, as he fights them in battle with the blows of his arm. Topheth has long been prepared; it has been made ready for the king. Its fire pit has been made deep and wide, with an abundance of fire and wood; the breath of the Lord, like a stream of burning sulphur, sets it ablaze." Assyria as the type of the final assembly of nations fighting against Jehovah is recorded in Micah.
Okay, new day.. The reason I quoted Zech 14 is the fact that it should be obvious that, that scripture is speaking of the day of Jehovah. And when Jehovah comes to destroy the nations at Armageddon. Zech 14:1 “Look! The day is coming, a day belonging to Jehovah, when the spoil from you will be divided in your midst. I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for the war; and the city will be captured and the houses plundered and the women raped. And half of the city will go into exile, but the remaining ones of the people will not be cut off from the city. Jehovah will go out and war against those nations as when he fights in the day of a battle."
The inhabitants of Jerusalem won't go twice into exile. Furthermore, Zech chapter 12 contradicts chapter 14. Hence, chapter 14 must mean something else.
I think what we are doing is circling the same wagon. Zech 12 and 14 are talking about the same event, but it's a bit like the trinity arguers. Just because Jesus says he and the father are one, doesn't mean physically, because we understand he also said he prayed for his disciples to be one with him in the same way he is one with him. With that said, correct, Jerusalem will never be inhabited again by strangers because it will be established first in heaven as Jesus being king. The second point however is the fact that the holy place will not be brought into it's right condition until the first day of the new world, even though it will already be established at the end of the 1260 days. There will still be 75 days before it's brought into its right condition. So there will be a period of time that the holy place will be reestablished from captivity but that it is not yet brought into its right condition because the nations will still exist on earth. Third, Jehovah cuts short the GT in order to keep what occurred in 70 CE from happening again. Fourth, we do know that after Babylon goes down some of the holy ones are killed. So therefore putting all of the pieces together it's obvious that there is first a circling of spiritual Jerusalem that removes the constant feature when Jehovah's people go into exile. Then 1260 days later they are collected back together when Jesus is enthroned. Now at this point there is a holy place on earth with the remaining sons of God, but the holy place is not brought into its "right condition" until the nations are destroyed, and no longer in the earth. Therefore when the nations come against Gods people after they return from captivity some will be killed, but they wont fully succeed to destroy the holy place as they did in 70CE because Jehovah will cut those days short at Armageddon. If I hold up a coin, you may say it's heads, and I "tails". However if we trade spots we should be able to determine the full dimension of the object... Make sense?
Joshua: in light of Romans 11:25-32, don't you think Zechariah 12 is applying to literal Jerusalem? They look on the 'one they pierced' as an only son. Combined with Romans 11 suggesting that Jehovah is going to restore natural Israel after the Gentiles have had a chance to accept the truth. I haven't encountered a 'spiritual' interpretation of these two chapters/verses that makes sense.
Ok, you win. I'll read Dn and Rv again... Your scenario mixes everything and I don't understand anything anymore to this discussion that is flying in all directions. Who are the "we" ? You do... The holy ones are killed by Babylon (Rv 13:5-7;18:20) only, during the appointed times of the nations.
Joel 3:1“For, look! in those days and in that time, when I shall bring back the captive ones of Judah and Jerusalem, [SUP]2[/SUP] I will also collect together all the nations and bring them down to the low plain of Je·hosh´a·phat; and I will put myself on judgment with them there on account of my people and my inheritance Israel, whom they scattered among the nations; and they apportioned out my own land. Green will occur after the GT and before blue. The reason red is occurring is because of seeing green and being aware that that is “the sign†that blue will now follow/the One seated on the throne and the Lamb will now arrive for judgment upon them. (The ones that are involved in red are those that were part of the 8[SUP]th[/SUP] king or supporters of it that received the mark, etc.) Joel 2:31 The sun itself will be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and fear-inspiring day of Jehovah. Mark 13:[SUP] 24[/SUP] “But in those days, afterthat tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, [SUP]25[/SUP] and the stars will be falling out of heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken.[SUP]26[/SUP] And then they will see the Son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory. [SUP]27[/SUP] And then he will send forth the angels and will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from earth’s extremity to heaven’s extremity. Luke 21:[SUP]25[/SUP] “Also, there will be signs in sun and moon and stars,and on the earth anguish of nations, not knowing the way out because of the roaring of the sea and [its] agitation, [SUP]26[/SUP] while men become faint out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited earth; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. [SUP]27[/SUP] And then they will see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Rev 6:[SUP]12[/SUP] And I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and a great earthquake occurred; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the entire moon became as blood, [SUP]13[/SUP] and the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as when a fig tree shaken by a high wind casts its unripe figs. [SUP]14[/SUP] And the heaven departed as a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and [every] island were removed from their places. [SUP]15[/SUP] And the kings of the earth and the top-ranking ones and the military commanders and the rich and the strong ones and every slave and [every] free person hid themselves in the caves and in the rock-masses of the mountains. [SUP]16[/SUP] And they keep saying to the mountains and to the rock-masses: “Fall over us and hide usfrom the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb,[SUP]17[/SUP] because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?†P.S. LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!
Rev 14:8-13; "Another, a second angel, followed, saying: “She has fallen! Babylon the Great has fallen, she who made all the nations drink of the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality!†Another angel, a third, followed them, saying in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the wild beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God that is poured out undiluted into the cup of His wrath, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, and day and night they have no rest, those who worship the wild beast and its image and whoever receives the mark of its name. Here is where it calls for endurance on the part of the holy ones, those who keep the commandments of God and hold fast to the faith of Jesus.†And I heard a voice out of heaven say, “Write: Happy are the dead who die in union with the Lord from this time onward. Yes, says the spirit, let them rest from their labors, for the things they did go right with them.â€
Hi SingleCell, This discussion is flying in all directions but I'm more familiar with the direction you wanna take... Jesus' brothers are his body (his bride => one flesh, 1Cor 6:15-17) and they all (more or less, as there are exceptions) must meet the same fate (Mat.20:23). Thus, that which happened to Jesus might be a portent of what will happen to his body... the spiritual one. Hence, it's very likely that Christ's brothers will be betrayed and turned in by Christians to the KON's gestapo... (Mat. 10:18-23).
Hahahah, yeah, sorry - we don't need another element to this. I'm just thrown for a loop by the idea in Romans 11:25-32, because it calls into question all of this 'spiritual' reading of "Jerusalem" in CERTAIN places. (though, the vast majority of "Jerusalem" or "Israel" in prophecy I agree SHOULD be read spiritually as the 'Israel of God' anointed bride - but not always, as I believe Zech 12 and Romans 11 suggests)
I share your views but I'm sure that Jehovah covers the tracks and puts up a smokescreen through the way things are written down in the Bible so as to confuse the readers (multifold fulfillments of prophecies...) in that regard as well... He is the One who calls the shots....
"He said to them: “YOU will indeed drink my cup, but this sitting down at my right hand and at my left is not mine to give, but it belongs to those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.â€" - Mat. 20:23 Here are the related biblical verses to the part quoted above in bold : (Acts 12:2) He did away with James the brother of John by the sword. (Romans 8:17) If, then, we are children, we are also heirs: heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ, provided we suffer together that we may also be glorified together. (2 Corinthians 1:7) And so our hope for YOU is unwavering, knowing as we do that, just as YOU are sharers of the sufferings, in the same way YOU will also share the comfort. (Revelation 1:9) I John, YOUR brother and a sharer with YOU in the tribulation and kingdom and endurance in company with Jesus, came to be in the isle that is called Pat′mos for speaking about God and bearing witness to Jesus.
Matthew 20:22-24 20:22-24. The "cup" represents Jesus' death (Matt 26:27-28,39); Jesus may borrow the image from the "cup of wrath" in the *Old Testament prophets (see comment on Mark 10:38 for references). from IVP Bible Background Commentary: New Testament by Craig S. Keener Copyright © 1993 by Craig S. Keener. Published by InterVarsity Press. All rights reserved. Mark 10:38. Jesus elsewhere refers to the cross as his cup (14:23-24,36), which may allude to the cup of judgment that appears often in the *Old Testament (Ps 60:3; 75:8; Isa 51:17-23; Jer 25:15-29; 49:12; Lam 4:21; Zech 12:2). His baptism in some way also prefigures his death (see comment on Mark 1:11; cf. Luke 12:50; Ps 69:2,14-15). from IVP Bible Background Commentary: New Testament by Craig S. Keener Copyright © 1993 by Craig S. Keener. Published by InterVarsity Press. All rights reserved. While making this research, I made a mistake and had a look at Mt. 10:38 instead, but funnily enough, the content is in connection with what I meant : "And whoever does not accept his torture stake and follow after me is not worthy of me. He that finds his soul will lose it, and he that loses his soul for my sake will find it." - Mat. 10:38-39
Yes, indeed!! I read Daniel yesterday, and I was starkly aware of how quickly a verse/chapter can go from literal ancient fulfillment, to abstract future fulfillment. (especially Daniel 11) Sometimes this shift happens within a single verse! I also noticed that Daniel deals with 4 literal kings, and 4 future 'beast' kings, and the 4 beast kings are described in multiple ways and during different time periods (particularly the 4th Roman / Anglo-American beast) ... interesting.
Yes, I don't think anyone else realizes that...lol I ask for you to challenge me on here. We rarely talk about scripture on a daily base off of here...
Hi SingleCell: yes, I think we will see soon the fulfillment of Daniel 7 where it says that the bear will rear up on one side and "eat much flesh". This beast will then "morph" into the next beast manifest as the BRICS which will dominate the financial system in their "petro gold" financial model for a short time until the powers that be finally implement the "final solution" through the 4th and worst beast of all, then the Kingdom of God prevails finally. frank