Just in case this was missed or overlooked, I thought I would clarify why I posted these scriptures. Seems pretty clear here that Babylon goes down, then there is a call for "endurance" on the part of the holy ones. Why you may ask? Because some of those in union with Christ would die from that point on, that is after Babylon had fallen... Rev 14:8-13; "Another, a second angel, followed, saying: “She has fallen! Babylon the Great has fallen, she who made all the nations drink of the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality!†Another angel, a third, followed them, saying in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the wild beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God that is poured out undiluted into the cup of His wrath, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, and day and night they have no rest, those who worship the wild beast and its image and whoever receives the mark of its name. Here is where it calls for endurance on the part of the holy ones, those who keep the commandments of God and hold fast to the faith of Jesus.†And I heard a voice out of heaven say, “Write: Happy are the dead who die in union with the Lord from this time onward. Yes, says the spirit, let them rest from their labors, for the things they did go right with them.†By all means John, feel free to answer it yourself as well...
I get completely turned around with these but I try to follow some. I think my brain gets to a certain point then fries ...I have been slightly following the program "The End of the Age" he identifies Russia "The Bear" you see it denoted as a bear on Magazine Covers the duel anglo power "the Lion with Wings" England's animal is the Lion ...US the Eagle the Lions loses its wings (separates from England) the US has two symbols the Eagle who stands up as a Man (Uncle Sam) and the Leopard as Germany ... The holy Roman Empire is being reborn under the European Union who has Charlemagne as coinage/headquarters building and awards (as Charlemagne was the 1st anointed King of the Holy Roman Empire as designated by the Pope and is currently under a Pope) anyhow I have found his dissertations fairly interesting (except for the Israel stuff) but I have to say his identity of the nations hit home with me.. all you have to do is look at the magazine covers and see the nations use these animal symbols as covers ...keep discussing them tho I might actually come to some understanding some day ...just throwing this out there since you all are laying down the threads ... (Daniel 7)
I don't want to detract from the conversation but I want to give some thanks for the2013 bible! its as ez to read as the NIV but the name Jehovah is were it should be. I think they did very well! thank you j.w. for your hard work!
That doesn't contradict what I said. You know what I meant by the term killed. Furthermore, that's not a call for endurance. That just explains what the holy ones will have to undergo. And lastly, there is an interval of time between the fall of Babylon and the gathering of the holy ones (Rv 18:4).
Purhaps you can share direct scriptural connection to other scriptures where the word killed is only a metaphor. As well connect that to Stephen, John the Baptist and Jesus. Scripture discusses them being killed. Maybe I just can't seem to find the scriptural connection your trying to make, that would say when the scripture says "killed" it doesn't really mean that. If you could please offer that scriptural connection and as well a relevant example in history when it was previously used. (that of "killed" not meaning killed.) There would obviously be one. If I'm not mistaken these scriptures in Rev 14 very much contradict your stream of thought on chronology, such as post 53, and many others. After all no matter what you think "killed" means, you have something coming against the holy ones, or holy place after Babylon falls. Right?
I've been explaining this very thing and providing biblical verses to prove it for years... You know what I mean and on what scriptural basis my opinion is founded. I won't spend 4-5 hours again to repeat it all over again. Every time persecutions during the time of the end are mentioned, they concern the holy ones as a whole and what they all undergo is described in many different ways. What I just said isn't in contradiction with what I wrote in post #53. What I explained in that post has a wider and deeper meaning than just whether Christ's brothers are really/only killed or not. After Babylon falls down, the only attack mentioned is the final attack, the one that leads to Armageddon, but the holy ones will already be in heaven by then.
Hey SingleCell, "Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him. Yes, Amen." - Rv 1:7 I wonder who are/will be those ?
"Do not be afraid of the things you are about to suffer. Look! The Devil will keep on throwing some of YOU into prison that YOU may be fully put to the test, and that YOU may have tribulation ten days. Prove yourself faithful even to death, and I will give you the crown of life." - Rv 2:10
Not if some of them are still alive on earth after the dead in Christ are resurrected and before Jesus comes in the clouds.
Hi John, Excellent question. It certainly seems to me that the prophecy about Gog is a furture event that dovetails nicely with Revelation 20 that occurs at the end of the thousand years. Joe
Also Ezekiel 47: 1-9 lines up nicely with Revelation 22: 1,2 and Zechariah 14:8 and Joel 3:18. It seems to me that it is different prophets describing the same thing.
They couldn't have. At the time these two chapters were written, and from then after there wasn't a moment Jehovah brought a nation against his people then intervened, let alone Gog being buried alive. These two chapters are discussing the GT that begins once the 42 months are over and the spiritual Israel is established again when Jesus is enthroned. The DT comes against that Israel that will have been brought back to Jehovah 30 days later. Then in front of the nations eyes he will cut the GT short by destroying the DT to keep it from completely destroying the holy ones, as in what happened in 70CE.
You know, it's interesting, in chronology there are ten days from the moment the DT stands in a holy place and Jesus comes to collect the holy ones in the clouds.
Hey SingleCell, Talking about Pierced... Found here or there. From a friend at Brooklyn Bethel this morning. Subject: Announcement Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 10:07:50 -0400 We are saddened to inform you of the death of Guy Pierce, a member of the Governing Body. It happened yesterday, March 18. Some of you already know, but it was just announced this morning in Bethel. He was 79; born November 6, 1934. Bro. Pierce was baptized at the age of 20 in August of 1955. He married in May of 1977 and had 6 children (two natural, two stepchildren, and two adopted). He began pioneering in 1982, became a circuit overseer in 1986 and served in that capacity (11 years) until called to Bethel service on September 1, 1997. Two years later (9/1/99), he was appointed a member of the Governing Body. His memorial service will be held this Saturday, March 22, at 3:30 pm. Bro. Mark Sanderson of the GB will give the discourse. Bro. Pierce was a very congenial person, down-to-earth, and happy to talk to everyone. I especially remember his quick wit. He saw something humorous in nearly every situation. He will be dearly missed.
Hi Joe, Personally, I think that you are right BUT I also think that the "official" interpretation isn't ludicrous, which is why I put forward the idea that the fulfillment of this prophecy might be dual...
Eze 39:22-24; "And those of the house of Israel will have to know that I am Jehovah their God from that day and forward. And the nations will have to know that it was because of their error that they, the house of Israel, went into exile, on account of the fact that they behaved unfaithfully toward me, so that I concealed my face from them and gave them into the hand of their adversaries, and they kept falling, all of them, by the sword. According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions I did with them, and I kept concealing my face from them.’ There is no way these two chapters are from any other time then that immediately after Israel's return from captivity and just before Armageddon. These scriptures above show that without any doubt what so ever.
There is no way.... are from any other time... Without any doubt whatsoever... Doesn't seem so clear-cut at all to everyone... although what you quoted is the part that pushes me to give the "official" interpretation the benefit of the doubt...
Well let me brake it out more... It's all about the chronology in the scriptures. Eze 39:22-24; "And those of the house of Israel will have to know that I am Jehovah their God from that day and forward. And the nations will have to know that it was because of their error Now I could quote a bunch of scriptures that discuss this same sentence from Jehovah, "they will have to know I am Jehovah" and they all pertain to the day Jehovah destroys the nations. At the end of the 1000 years, those who are faithful will survive. There will be no nations that will see Jehovah's people coming back to him because of error. Israel is in error now, in our day, this does not occur at the end of the 1000 years, those who error are at that point on the side of Gog. If they error they die. The error spoken of here is the one that sends them into captivity for the 42 months. that they, the house of Israel, went into exile, At the end of the 1000 years there is no captivity. Those who are deceived are destroyed. The faithful remain faithful. on account of the fact that they behaved unfaithfully toward me, Again, those who are unfaithful at the end of the 1000 years are destroyed there is no captivity and return. so that I concealed my face from them and gave them into the hand of their adversaries, and they kept falling, all of them, by the sword. At the end of the 1000 years, why would Jehovah conceal his face from those who are going to survive? And who are the adversaries? If they error, they become the adversary at the end of the 1000 years. According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions I did with them, and I kept concealing my face from them.’ This condition will not exist in any way at the end of the 1000 years.