Hi Josh: You really don't see that this is the present condition of the Watchtower, do you? They are and have been in transgression since January 28, 1992 when they joined the DPI of the U.N, as an NGO and they have never repented of that dreadful sin. They are "unclean" in the sense that they have no valid water baptism in order to be "physically clean", how can you have a baptism that is a symbol of repentance when you are an unrepentant sinner ? You can't. Yes, you can still go through the motions of baptizing, but it has no power to cleanse or give a person a good conscience. And yes, Jehovah has turned his face away from the people of the Watchtower until such a time as they do repent and return to him, and he will forgive in a large way, but only after true repentance. frank
I agree with this analysis, it seems fairly clear. At the end of the 1000 years there won't be a 'spiritual' Israel to apply this to, as the sons of God will have been revealed and ruling during this time. It also seems illogical to place this at the end of the 1000 years since the captivity is at the end of this age, not the next.
To brake it out ? What's this ? Anyway, I already said that I agreed with you on that. What isn't so clear-cut is about the other arguments Joe, John and I put forward in favour of a post-millennial fulfillment and which weren't convincingly refuted so far. I doubt they ever will.
What page were these arguments on Utuna? I agree that certain verses seem to take place at the end of the 1000 years, particularly Gog's destruction; but it's hard to gauge since the prophecies tend to bounce between time periods instantaneously.
So then we're left with the idea (like you said) of either dual fulfillment, or verse-timeline splitting edit: or perhaps obfuscated relational application, where the original entity becomes a 'type' and the application is a derivative of the original entity. For example, 'Egypt = America'
Don't tell me you think Jehovah will kill Gog at the end of this system, then create him again at the end of the 1000 years imperfect, then to kill him again do you?
It's seems pretty simple. The same "Israel" and "Nations" spoken of in Eze 39:22-24 have to be the same "Israel" and "Nations" in the 38 & 39th chapters. Verses 22-24 are telling you what it's been talking about all along in those two chapters, and when they occur. You have to apply the events in 22-24 to both chapters. It is the only thing there to go buy. Taking anything out of those two chapters and saying they have a fulfillment in any other time then what is described in 39:22-24 would simply be adding more then what is there. Brake it out=Brake it down
That's why I try and have a balanced take and affirm that just like there were elements in the prophecy about Jerusalem that would take place in the time of the end only and not in 70CE, there are details in Ez.38 that may take place in one given period of time and not necessarily in the other one. These arguments ? They are a bit scattered but I think that if they aren't on this thread, they are on the one about Amos 7:1.
Judea were to flee the moment they saw Jerusalem surrounded in 66CE. The society is doing as it wishes without concern at this moment. They see no surrounding. 1290 days from that moment the Disgusting Thing stood in a holy place. The MOL is hidden and waiting to be revealed, the DT will be seen the moment it enters the city. In 70CE Rome entered the city and it was seen by all, that moment was the end of the game. Nothing more, story over. Rome was not secretly in the holy place just waiting to pop out and say surprise. The society is now in no way in captivity. All of your chronology requires every event up until now to be a metaphor and hidden for only a few handful to see. That is a wrong perception. Your connection between the DT and the MOL is the exact same way the society connects the heaven high tree with the gentile times, there is no scriptural connection. I've been there, considered that, long ago... Your chronology is full of many holes.
Fair enough… But tell me this, where in Ezekiel 38 or 39 would one read about them being given into the hand of their adversaries, and they kept falling, all of them, by the sword, the said exile that “the nations will have to know†that it was because of their error that they, the house of Israel, went into exile, on account of the fact that they behaved unfaithfully toward me, so that I concealed my face from them and gave them into the hand of their adversaries, and they kept falling, all of them, by the sword. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZA1rWLsl-Dg
In my opinion, here, the type is the Assyrian or more specifically Sennacherib for Satan. Which means that a certain pattern is followed, although not in details (like Jesus and Melkisedek as second example). The prophecies about Jerusalem, Egypt and/or Tyre, for instance, follow the same pattern. There is obviously a future and wider fulfillment in store for each prophecy. I'm not adamantly stating that things are the way I see them. I'm just saying that that is how I get rid of the discrepancies and seeming contradictions. Bonne nuit !
Brother, Judea went into exile in 66CE, it wasn't until 1290 days later before the DT stood in a holy place. The exile begins the moment the 42 months begin, the putting a hook and bringing Gog along against his people happens 30 days after the 42 months end. 1260+30=1290. Eze 38-39 are only talking about the time after Israel comes back from captivity. I will have time more to post later... Still at work...