Moving Ahead With Jehovah's Organization

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by SingleCell, Mar 11, 2014.

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    john

    john Member

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    So the answer to my question is that Eze 38-39 doesn’t make any mention of it? I know that you want to refrain from saying that Gog’s attack is that time period!!!

    Anyway,

    So within 30 days they go from:

    To this being able to be said about them:

    So much that Gog is asked:
    WOW, that in 30 days!!!

    The funny thing at this point is that if you look at that new video that show the new headquarters and you see the land that it is on…it sure does seem to fit now with:

    I wonder if they are setting this all up to make it seem like the real attack???

    Well would you look at that WT excerpt on Joel. According to the attack on Jehovah’s people from the Northerner, it seems that they are rob of their gold, silver, and other desirable things… yet within 30 days Gog will be able to carry off silver and gold, and take wealth and property.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    “This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, ‘And it must occur in that day that things will come up into your heart,and you will certainly think up an injurious scheme; and you must say: “I shall go up against the land of open rural country. I shall come in upon those having no disturbance, dwelling in security, all of them dwelling without wall, and they do not have even bar and doors."

    We must remember that at the end of the 1260 days/42 months Jesus is enthroned and holy spirit is poured out. Just like the 120 in the upper room. How did they feel at that moment? They were ecstatic, going out in the street speaking to everyone, filled with holy spirit! Now let's think about what comes on the rest of the world at that moment. Wars, hails, fire, Great Tribulation, food shortages, etc etc etc... Jehovah's people will know their salvation is at hand. Are they going to be stressed or joyed? The sons of God will glow like Moses, Stephen, Jesus, they will look to be vulnerable, once the world sees they are Gods chosen.

    "It will be to get a big spoil and to do much plundering, in order to turn your hand back upon devastated places reinhabited and upon a people gathered together out of the nations, [one] that is accumulating wealth and property,[those] who are dwelling in the center of the earth."

    This is why the DT comes against Israel. If they kill Gods remaining chosen then maybe Jehovah will leave this planet and them alone. "Let us cut their bands from us". The center of the earth very well could have been seen as Jerusalem. It would have been the center of the known world at that time. These scriptures are talking about spiritual wealth. Now it doesn't really matter if this scripture is talking about spiritual or physical wealth. Most likely it pertains to spiritual wealth from Jehovah because that is the treasure from heaven that neither rusts nor moths eat. It's the wealth that matters. However, I gaurentee you these ones would have years warning and would have set aside everything they needed physically in order to survive the last days of the GT, from food and gold.

    “‘She′ba and De′dan and the merchants of Tar′shishand all its maned young lionsthey will say to you: “Is it to get a big spoil that you are coming in? Is it to do much plundering that you have congregated your congregation, in order to carry off silver and gold, to take wealth and property, to get a very great spoil?â€â€™

    There is the question from the merchants, is it for the money, sustenance, that you come against them? Because they will be in a dire situation in the GT.

    “Therefore prophesy, O son of man, and you must say to Gog, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: “Will it not be in that day when my people Israel are dwelling in security that you will know [it]?"

    We know why they will be dwelling in security, they will have been sealed. Holy spirit would have been poured out. They know their salvation is at hand. They will have Jehovah's blessing at that moment.

    "And you will certainly come from your place, from the remotest parts of the north, you and many peoples with you, all of them riding on horses, a great congregation, even a numerous military force. And you will be bound to come up against my people Israel, like clouds to cover the land. In the final part of the days it will occur, and I shall certainly bring you against my land, for the purpose that the nations may know me when I sanctify myself in you before their eyes, O Gog.â€

    Then this is the moment the DT stands in a holy place. Then Jehovah destroys them, cutting the GT short to keep the DT from destroying the temple as it did in 70CE.

    “‘And it must occur in that day, in the day when Gog comes in upon the soil of Israel,’ is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, ‘that my rage will come up into my nose. And in my ardor, in the fire of my fury, I shall have to speak.Surely in that day a great quaking will occur in the soil of Israel. And because of me the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the wild beasts of the field and all the creeping things that are creeping on the ground and all mankind that are upon the surface of the ground will be bound to shiver, and the mountains will actually be thrown down and the steep ways will have to fall, and to the earth even every wall will fall.’

    Then you have what occurs the moment Jesus comes in the clouds.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    What is ceased at the beginning of their captivity is the constant feature. It is that spiritual food that comes from the society. The WT announcing Jehovah's kingdom to the world.

    Joel 1:9-12; “Grain offering and drink offering have been cut off from the house of Jehovah; the priests, the ministers of Jehovah, have mourned. [The] field has been despoiled, [the] ground has gone to mourning; for [the] grain has been despoiled, [the] new wine has been dried up, [the] oil has faded away. Farmers have felt shame; vinedressers have howled, on account of wheat and on account of barley; for the harvest of [the] field has perished. The vine itself has shown dryness, and even the fig tree has faded away. As for [the] pomegranate tree, also [the] palm tree and [the] apple tree, all the trees of the field, they have dried up; for exultation has gone ashamed away from the sons of mankind."

    All of the "drink offering and grain offering" will cease. There will be no more memorial. The Elders will mourn. All the magazines and books will no longer be produced. All the spiritual food will cease.
     
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    john

    john Member

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    3 “For, look! in those days and in that time, when I shall bring back the captive ones of Judah and Jerusalem, [SUP]2[/SUP] I will also collect together all the nations and bring them down to the low plain of Je·hosh´a·phat; and I will put myself on judgment with them there on account of my people and my inheritance Israel, whom they scattered among the nations; and they apportioned out my own land. [SUP]3[/SUP] And for my people they kept casting lots; and they would give the male child for a prostitute, and the female child they sold for wine, that they might drink…[SUP].5[/SUP] Because YOU men have taken my own silver and my own gold, and YOU have brought my own desirable good things into YOUR temples; [SUP]6[/SUP] and the sons of Judah and the sons of Jerusalem YOU have sold to the sons of the Greeks, for the purpose of removing them far from their own territory;




    LOL!!!!!!!!

    [SUP]24[/SUP] and, after giving thanks, he broke it and said: “This means my body which is in YOUR behalf. Keep doing this in remembrance of me.â€￾ [SUP]25[/SUP] He did likewise respecting the cup also, after he had the evening meal, saying: “This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood. Keep doing this, as often as YOU drink it, in remembrance of me.â€￾ [SUP]26[/SUP] For as often as YOU eat this loaf and drink this cup, YOU keep proclaiming the death of the Lord, until he arrives.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    You missed what I said in context. We know they will be going into exile. Did Daniel create a huge bonfire on the tower and burn lambs in Babylon? It's the constant feature that will be removed. "Grain offering and drink offering" will cease in Jerusalem. No doubt it will still happen in private, but that's not the context of the scripture. It's speaking of that, that is within Jerusalem as part of the constant feature.

    What happen to the sacrifices in Jerusalem when it was concurred by Babylon?
     
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    john

    john Member

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    If you have the GT coming after the 42 month captivity and it is the GT that is cut short on account of the chosen ones…then how does the 42 months come to there end?

    Is it something like this:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kerUbfOQTW0

    (Must watch all of it to appreciate.)


    What will cause the Northerner/attackers of Ariel to just to stop? And since the verses above are referring to the Northerner/attackers of Ariel’s destruction, then when does that occur for them? With them gone, who will be around to make up Gog’s forces?
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    I remember that old cartoon, but not sure how it pertains...

    The 42 months end with Jesus being enthroned. The 42 months end with everything that's in the 7th trumpet, 7th bowl and the first 6 seals. It's the most eventful day in history. Jesus enthroned, holy spirit poured out, dead in Christ resurrected, hails, earthquakes, war, pestilence, food shortages. The 42 months end when Jesus is enthroned and the holy spirit poured out on those on earth faithful.
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Member

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    [​IMG]

    :p
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Oh okay, I see... Well let's just answer that for ya then... ;)

    Rev 20:1-3; "And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven with the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. He seized the dragon, the original serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for 1,000 years. And he hurled him into the abyss and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not mislead the nations anymore until the 1,000 years were ended."

    Dictionaries - Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology - Abyss

    Abyss

    "In our English Bibles, the Greek word abyssos [a [busso"] is transliterated as "abyss" (RSV "bottomless pit") in every instance except Romans 10:7, where it is translated "the deep." In the Septuagint abyssos [a [busso"] translates Tehom almost exclusively, but in rare instancesShuLam ( Isa 44:27 ), MeshuLam ( Job 41:22 ), and Racha ( Job 36:16 ). Psalm 71:20, "the depths of the earth" are spoken of in a manner almost signifying death"

    Eze 39:11; “‘On that day I will give Gog a burial place there in Israel, in the valley of those who travel east of the sea, and it will block the path of those passing through. That is where they will bury Gog and all his hordes, and they will call it the Valley of Hamon-Gog."

    Now along with the evidence that this place will continue to be associated with Gog, that means this is before the end of the 1000 years because;

    Isa 65:17; "For look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be called to mind, Nor will they come up into the heart."

    Now, we know the account in Eze is a little different;

    Eze 39:11; "a burial place there in Israel, in the valley of those who travel east of the sea, and it will block the path of those passing through. That is where they will bury Gog and all his hordes, and they will call it the Valley of Hamon-Gog."

    From this point on this place is known as Hamon-Gog. So therefore the idea of blocking the path of those passing through and the name of the place shows that they know something is there and that it will return. The dead will not be remembered after the final battle at the end of the 1000 years.

    Now, unless you believe Jehovah is going to kill Gog at the end of this system, then create him and those with him again imperfect at the end of the 1000 years, then kill them again, then the alternative is what? "And he hurled him into the abyss and shut it and sealed it over him." (Rev 20:3) That's right, he's buried alive.

    That's what we call in America a slam dunk! :p
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    I wanted to touch base on this question again John, I don't think I responded fully. From the day that there is a call to rebuild Jerusalem in the time of the end, until the DT attacks, there will be 513 days. So there would be plenty of time to gather physical means for Jehovah. Keep in mind, if you knew the day the dollar would collapse, one could stand to do well and survive that indecent. Let alone all those looking forward to that same day after the call to rebuild Jerusalem would donate as well, just as times past when a call to rebuild Jerusalem. Jehovah's people were instructed to bring their gold and materials to help. It appears in the last prophetic books of the old testament that in fact there will be buildings rebuilt and in fact Jehovah's people will regain wealth in Jehovah's name while those around them lose everything.

    Led by Joshua and Zerubbabel, and all the remaining ones we read in Haggai what will occur when this new Jerusalem will be built.

    Haggai 2:8,9; “‘The silver is mine, and the gold is mine,’ is the utterance of Jehovah of armies. “‘Greater will the glory of this later house become than [that of] the former, ’Jehovah of armies has said."
     
  11. Hi Josh:

    It sounds as though you are awaiting the "literal" rebuilding of the physical temple in Jerusalem. I would hope that you will reconsider this viewpoint. Jesus and Jehovah are not interested in the building of physical buildings but are preoccupied, by the "spiritual", and Jesus actually says as much in John the second chapter.

    8 Therefore, in response the Jews said to him: “What sign can you show us,+ since you are doing these things?†19 Jesus replied to them: “Tear down this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.â€+ 20 The Jews then said: “This temple was built in 46 years, and will you raise it up in three days?†21 But he was talking about the temple of his body.+ 22 When, though, he was raised up from the dead, his disciples recalled that he used to say this,+ and they believed the scripture and what Jesus had spoken. John 2

    The "Temple" of God is not made with physical stones, but "spiritual" ones. But not just any stones. They must be truly sanctified into the "New Covenant" or "body" of the Christ. Imitation stones cannot and will not be tolerated. Any "Temple" masquerading as the true one which is built with imitation "stones" will be torn down and "rebuilt" properly with duly sanctified stones (chosen by God, not men). That is what we are awaiting, the tearing down of this "imitation temple" (Watchtower) and the rebuilding of the "true temple" of the Living God made from approved materials (stones).

    The Watchtower was indeed at one time the "approved" vessel made of genuine "spiritual stones" of God and therefore could be seen as the Temple of God (not the physical location, but the spiritual condition). That situation has changed, The Watchtower for some time now has been accepting men into the "Temple" who are truly not part of the "body of Christ". Some of them could be faithful men who have been "deluded" by the power they have been given and no doubt some of them are wolves in sheeps clothing, but non the less they are all imposters and are not approved stones. This is what will happen during the "acceptable year" of Jehovah spoken about in Isaiah. Sit tight as that time is very near.

    The really scary part of all this is that the GB of the Watchtower know this and they continue to thrust their imitation temple on "God's People". How could they do such a thing? They are the modern day fulfillment of the Jews of Jesus' day. Those men knew Jesus was the Messiah, they just did not want to give up their power and prestige, so they conspired to Kill him instead. These men are drunk with power and prestige, but they will be chastised soon. Some of them who are righteous men will repent finally, but some will go down to Gehenna holding onto their false sense power and prestige. My hope is that the majority will repent when that time comes.

    frank
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    That is incorrect, you've misunderstood. The new Jerusalem is the spiritual Israel under Christ as king and his brothers, not a physical building or location.
     
  13. Hi Joshua:

    I will take you at your word, but only if you "reread" your post #130 and with a straight face assure me that you were not talking "literal" buildings in expressions like...

    "So there would be plenty of time to gather physical means for Jehovah."

    "after the call to rebuild Jerusalem would donate as well, just as times past when a call to rebuild Jerusalem"

    "in fact there will be buildings rebuilt and in fact Jehovah's people will regain wealth in Jehovah's name while those around them lose everything."

    frank
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    John knows what I meant in the context of our continuing conversation. Although primarily scripture discusses wealth after the return of Israel from captivity as spiritual there still is much evidence to show they will once again collect means of living as well. And this will be during a time when the rest of the world will be suffering. This is no different then the current temple discussed in 2Th 2.

    This is no different then any other time Jerusalem was concurred. They were plundered by those invaders and the wealth and materials were carried off. It's also not a surprise that Jehovah's people were always in a location. Jehovah's temple as those buildings dedicated to him could be New York, the farm, Warwick. If it's dedicated to Jehovah with means gathered to him from his people it could be a card board box on the street and be the holy place if Jehovah wishes, but the primary meaning is that those within are the sons of God, (holy place).

    Joel 3:5 "Because you have taken my silver and gold, And you have brought my finest treasures into your temples;"

    Hag 1:8;
    “‘Go up to the mountain and bring in lumber. And build the house, so that I may take pleasure in it and I may be glorified,’ Jehovah says.â€

    Hag 2:8,9; “‘The silver is mine, and the gold is mine,’ declares Jehovah of armies. “‘The future glory of this house will be greater than the former,’ says Jehovah of armies."

    Eze 39:29; "It will be to get a big spoil and to do much plundering, in order to turn your hand back upon devastated places reinhabited and upon a people gathered together out of the nations, [one] that is accumulating wealth and property,[those] who are dwelling in the center of the earth."

    Eze 38; “‘She′ba and De′dan and the merchants of Tar′shishand all its maned young lionsthey will say to you: “Is it to get a big spoil that you are coming in? Is it to do much plundering that you have congregated your congregation, in order to carry off silver and gold, to take wealth and property, to get a very great spoil?â€â€™

    Again, it should not be confused. The Jerusalem and holy place that is to be entered in the time of the end is the spiritual one made up of Christ as king and those with him.
     
  15. Hi Josh:You highlight on a couple occasions the expressions "silver and gold". Are you referring to the actual metals, or could this also be a metaphor for something else, just as the "temple" speaks of the actual building in Jerusalem, but can also mean the house of God made from "sanctified stones", "the body of Christ"? Just wondering?

    frank
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    As mentioned, depending on the context, both are spoken of. Just as any other temple of God's in the past, there is the spiritual as well the physical, there has always been both.
     
  17. Hi Josh:

    What is the metaphorical meaning of "silver and gold" in scripture?

    frank
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    As said, it depends on context. Through prophecy oils and foods are synonymous of spiritual food, as gold can mean just that.

    Ezra 5:14 "He even removed from the temple of Babylon the gold and silver articles of the house of God, which Nebuchadnezzar had taken from the temple in Jerusalem and brought to the temple in Babylon. Then King Cyrus gave them to a man named Sheshbazzar, whom he had appointed governor,"

    As already mentioned it doesn't really matter which the scripture speaks of. Every time Jehovah's temple was destroyed, both were taken away.

    BTW I understand the 400th failed prediction has past, failed nuclear attacks on March 16th, and somethings coming to fail on April 1st & 14th, right?...
     
  19. Hi Joshua:

    very good, touche!

    frank
     
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    belongingtojah

    belongingtojah Member

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    Hi All,

    The more we read in the living word of truth the more the spirit makes us aware of the mental concern of our Father.

    Our Father has some interesting details that I believe are about the Kingdom rule of the "holy ones of the Supreme One".

    Isaiah 18:
    7 “In that time a gift will be brought to Jehovah of armies, [from] a people drawn out and scoured, even from a people fear-inspiring everywhere, a nation of tensile strength and of treading down, whose land the rivers have washed away, to the place of the name of Jehovah of armies, Mount Zion.â€

    Micah 5:
    7 “And the remaining ones of Jacob must become in the midst of many peoples like dew from Jehovah, like copious showers upon vegetation, that does not hope for man or wait for the sons of earthling man. 8 And the remaining ones of Jacob must become among the nations, in the midst of many peoples, like a lion among the beasts of a forest, like a maned young lion among droves of sheep, which, when it actually passes through, certainly both tramples down and tears in pieces; and there is no deliverer. 9 Your hand will be high above your adversaries, and all enemies of yours will be cut off.â€

    Zechariah 9:
    12 “Return to the stronghold, YOU prisoners of the hope.
    “Also, today [I am] telling [you], ‘I shall repay to you, [O woman,] a double portion. 13 For I will tread as my [bow] Judah. The bow I will fill with E′phra‧im, and I will awaken your sons, O Zion, against your sons, O Greece, and I will make you as the sword of a mighty man.’ 14 And over them Jehovah himself will be seen, and his arrow will certainly go forth just like lightning. And on the horn the Sovereign Lord Jehovah himself will blow, and he will certainly go with the windstorms of the south. 15 Jehovah of armies himself will defend them, and they will actually devour and subdue the slingstones. And they will certainly drink—be boisterous—as if there were wine; and they will actually become filled like the bowl, like the corners of [the] altar.
    16 “And Jehovah their God will certainly save them in that day like the flock of his people; for they will be as the stones of a diadem glittering over his soil.

    1 Peter 2:
    4 Coming to him as to a living stone, rejected, it is true, by men, but chosen, precious, with God, 5 YOU yourselves also as living stones are being built up a spiritual house for the purpose of a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For it is contained in Scripture: “Look! I am laying in Zion a stone, chosen, a foundation cornerstone, precious; and no one exercising faith in it will by any means come to disappointment.â€
    7 It is to YOU, therefore, that he is precious, because YOU are believers; but to those not believing, “the identical stone that the builders rejected has become [the] head of [the] corner,†8 and “a stone of stumbling and a rock-mass of offense.†These are stumbling because they are disobedient to the word. To this very end they were also appointed. 9 But YOU are “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that YOU should declare abroad the excellencies†of the one that called YOU out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 For YOU were once not a people, but are now God’s people; YOU were those who had not been shown mercy, but are now those who have been shown mercy.

    Revelation 5:
    9 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.â€

    Revelation 22:
    3 And no more will there be any curse. But the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in [the city], and his slaves will render him sacred service; 4 and they will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5 Also, night will be no more, and they have no need of lamplight nor [do they have] sunlight, because Jehovah God will shed light upon them, and they will rule as kings forever and ever.

    We do not hope in men. Our hope is in Jehovah and Jesus and their promises found in their word of truth.


    Laying the understanding of chronology aside it is my belief that the true organization of Jehovah is as described at Hebrews 12:


    18 For YOU have not approached that which can be felt and which has been set aflame with fire, and a dark cloud and thick darkness and a tempest, 19 and the blare of a trumpet and the voice of words; on hearing which voice the people implored that no word should be added to them. 20 For the command was not bearable to them: “And if a beast touches the mountain, it must be stoned.†21 Also, the display was so fearsome that Moses said: “I am fearful and trembling.†22 But YOU have approached a Mount Zion and a city of [the] living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels, 23 in general assembly, and the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens, and God the Judge of all, and the spiritual lives of righteous ones who have been made perfect, 24 and Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and the blood of sprinkling, which speaks in a better way than Abel’s [blood].



    All man made organizations are imitations and not the real thing. Including the watchtower organization.

    We would all do well to heed Pauls words at:

    Hebrews 13:

    13 Let us, then, go forth to him outside the camp, bearing the reproach he bore, 14 for we do not have here a city that continues, but we are earnestly seeking the one to come.

    We are all wanting to seek and please Jehovah and Jesus are we not?

    Joe
     

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