At the end of the d

true words spoken Joe, well said my friend!

 

You have no idea what I'm going through BECAUSE I'm closer than a brother to him.....

It ain't easy to be as thick as thieves with bigwigs like him...

 

Usually, I'm the one who sounds preachy and stilted.... I'm jealous...

 

Which translation are you relying on Frank? I have never read something like that. NWT says "“Concerning that day and hour nobody knows" NIV says "36 “But about that day or hour no one knows," I've never seen a translation that says what you posted.
Also, it would be anti-thematic to say that it's ok to try to figure it out, or that WT is somehow correct in their failed attempts to do so.

 

Hi Frank....

I really appreciated your insight here:


"Hi Apocalype:

Matt 24:36 does not say that no man can see the day or the hour, it says no man "has yet seen". Oiden according to Strongs is a primary verb used in only certain "past tenses". It is the past tense of see. So it means no man has seen. But it is not a prohibition on someone seeing it in the future. Men have been reading this one wrong and translating it wrong for years because they fear having to try to decipher God's Word and look foolish when they are wrong. But Prophets of Jehovah and those that attempt to decipher the words of the true prophets have been looking very foolish from the day there were prophets of Jehovah walking the earth until today. Picture Ezekiel lying on his side for how many days? Heating food with his own excrement? Looked pretty foolish, up until the day his prophecies were fulfilled. So, looking foolish while trying to decipher God's Word should be the goal that all reach out to. Without reaching and failing you will never succeed. The Watchtower looked foolish a few times, maybe five or six and then they hung it up and become contented wandering in a chronologicial wilderness for 40 years because they threw away their watch.

Frank"

I feel good about the way you put it. We at least need to respect those searching and working hard to understand prophecy, and making videos and posts to put out SOMETHING. Joshua7....for instance.

I may not understand some conclusions they reach...but I think some of what they say seems right. Since I have a mental block on Daniel, as far as the 1260 days of this or that....I have NOTHING useful to say. But others are zealous for those hidden treasures, and I try to see what they are thinking.

Now, the day and the hour for Armageddon, or Christ's return, etc...? I just keep waiting, because WT burned me and millions once; 1975...and I won't ever let that happen again.

One of my Bible students who now is not a JW anymore, I recently contacted via Facebook. He now is an agnostic. What a shame. No faith or belief in Jehovah, and lived his life 40 years without serving God. That, is WT's crash and burn wreckage...which is a great and sorrowful load of judgment for them, I'm sure...but God be the Judge.

All I know, is that this new brother and I were RUNNING in October of 1975...placing the last Kingdom News no. 17's out there door-to-door..."What has RELIGION done for Mankind?"...which was a judgmental, condemnatory message against the churches in the world...ALL churches, and ALL people attending them. WT posed as the "Great Prophet Ezekiel" giving the final warning before God's Son comes with the destruction of Babylon the great.

Well.....as you know...nothing happened, and people saw how stupid , self-righteous, and deluded the WT newspaper boys were.4 or 5 Kingdom News 'divine messages ' followed in quick succession....and we had the whip cracked on our backs: "Get out there day and night and distribute these to every single house and door!" But about three months later, literally millions and millions of these 'Special Messages' piled up in our storerooms, and that was the end of that. Out of gas...and many out of faith: WT...and God.

 

Hi Apocalypse:

You need to look at an interlinear greek translation and then reference strongs definitions of those greek words. Oiden is in the past tense and this scripture needs to be understood correctly in that way.

Frank

 

Hi Frank.
Firstly, I think it's a grave error to focus on one word in this way. But I will go along with it for now.

Here is a link to the verse in question.

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/24-36.htm​

One can quickly see that the word you have focused on is the incorrect word. "Oude" (Strong's 3761[e]) occurs later in the verse and in reference to the angels "not even" knowing. It occurs later also in reference to the Son "not even" knowing. It does not mean what you indicate. There is no reference to "seeing".

From your post above:

"about the day, up this point, nobody has perceived when messenger from heaven will arrive, other than the Father"​

This is incorrect.

The correct wording is "oudeis oiden" (Strong's, 3762[e],1492[e]) "no one knows"

Focusing on the context is far superior.

Jesus was answering to inquiries as to when things would occur. His words here in 36 were part of the greater answer and the context does not lend to 'Jesus supplying an answer' or even indicating His disciples should look for one. Jesus was clearly dissuading His disciples from such activity. He went on to compare that "day" to Noah's day and showed how people did NOT expect it.

In His summary, Jesus juxtaposed the end of Jerusalem in that "generation" with the end of the entire world to come.
We can see this at Matthew 24:32-36.

32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it [the Romans] is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. 36 “But about that day [Lord's Day] or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

So, while they were given a sign, which they needed for survival -as they had to take flight from Jerusalem- He explained the exact opposite for the coming end of this world.

This is in harmony with all of His teaching.

1. That He was going away for a long time and His followers continually needed to be ready for His return.
2. The parable of the virgins, (His followers) taking extra oil for what could be a long wait.
3. That He would be like the surprise of a thief in the night. (for His followers and thieves alike)

And so many other teachings, all of which have the same theme, and all of which demonstrate that it is wrong to try to figure it out.

I used to try to figure it out too. However, one day I sat down and meditated on WHY I wanted to know. I realized that I had an emotional need to have it all 'figured out'. I am sure if anyone reflects as did I, they will see the same.

 

1. You are misapplying Daniel.
2. I realize that my bolded words above will "fall on deaf ears" NII (no insult intended)

The link and the explanation were clear, but you discard it like yesterday's scraps. What point is there isn demonstrating (1.)... when (2.) is obvious. (rhetorical) NII

To me it is painfully obvious that you so desire to believe what you believe, that there's no point in demonstrating why it's not true.

 

Hi Apocalypse:

It is true that Jesus and the angels, at the time that he recited these verses did not know (or did not perceive) when the end would be. Do you think that Jesus still doesn't know? And if he knows now, has he told his close confidante's in the heavens. Oiden in the Greek is a verb in the past tense, so it means "no one has seen" or "no one has perceived" not "can perceive", that is a mistranslation. In the interlinear it actually shows us that no one has "yet" perceived the day and hour. Yet, to me suggests that some day someone will perceive or even if they don't, that it is possible. The expression "I haven't eaten dinner yet", does not preclude that you may soon eat dinner, it only means that "up to that place in time" you have not eaten. Likewise, the fact that up to the point of the writing of this scripture that no one had yet percieved "the day or hour" does not preclude that someday, someone might.

This is much like another scripture that people mis-translate all the time. Matthew 28:19. It does NOT say baptized "in" the name of the Father, Son, etc. but rather "baptized into" the name of the Father etc.... There is a distinct difference in the words used in the Greek and in the meaning of each phrase. When you are baptized in someone's name you are baptized by the authority of that person. When an ambassador speaks "in" the name of his/her country or President, it means that they are speaking with the full authority of that country or President etc.

When you are baptized "into" the name of someone means you are entering "into" that family, you are taking on that family name. Remember when you are baptized, you are entering into a covenant relationship with God and you are taking the "name" of the covenant Father of the covenant that you are entering. It is similar to getting married. You don't marry in a family, you marry into a family and when you do it is customary to take the name of that family you are marrying "into".

In Matthew 28:19 the Greek work used is eis, which means "into" not "in". In is the Greek word en, which is close to eis but not the same. Now, I have heard the argument that we should not get caught up in the meanings of words. But Jesus our Master did not feel this way. He stressed that we should worry about every jot and tittle of the scriptures and that not one word of them would fail to carry meaning and importance.

If you choose to go on thinking that it doesn't matter one way or the other, that is OK by me. But having a precise knowledge of what the scriptures "actually" says is important to me and I think it was important to Jesus. "Truly I say to you that sooner would heaven and earth pass away than for one smallest letter or one stroke of a letter to pass away from the Law until all things take place.+ " Matthew 5:18

Actually, I think the verse was mistranslated purposely by the Catholics because it makes it easier to accept the confounding theory of the Trinity to it's people. When you hear the phrase being baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit it gives credence to many that the Trinity is a valid Bible teaching.

In regard to being baptized into each of these names, let's think about what they might mean. Of course there are other meanings of this scripture that are supported by the symbolic meanings of the phrase "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" but if we just look at a more literal meaning what do we have. To be baptized "into" the name of the Father when taken most literally means to enter "into" the name or family of Jehovah God. If you can agree to that then you would also know that only one person has done that up to this point. Jesus is the ONLY one who up to this point has entered "into" the name of the Father. "For example, to which one of the angels did God ever say: “You are my son; today I have become your father”?+ And again: “I will become his father, and he will become my son”?" Hebrews 1:5

Thus far Jesus is the only one who has been named into the family name of the Father. It won't always be that way, but for now that is how it is. When you enter "into" the name of the Son, you enter into his family and take his name. Who does this? Of course it is those who are part of the "Bride of Christ", they enter "into" the name of the Christ as a member of his Bride. I doubt if there are any who will choose to keep their former family name or will have a hyphenated name in Christ. Francis Conger Jesus. I actually am not and have never expressed otherwise that I am a part of Jesus Bride, I just used that as an example. Lastly, when you are baptized "into" the name of the Holy Spirit it means that you are one who has been "reborn" or "born again" and by this rebirth are now a part of the family of those born of Holy Spirit. I happen to believe that the scriptures allow for many more than 144,000 to be "born again" but only 144,000 that will be a part of Jesus Bride.

Do you see the difference between being baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and being baptized "into" such an arrangement? The difference is very large and is the product of the difference in only "one" word or the proper translation of "one" word.
Does that make any sense? I hope it does.

Frank

 

I like this. LOL...

No dear bro.I hear what you're saying. There's time involved.

Just the idea that the "kings of the Earth mourn the harlot" (Rev) will take an amount of time. And I do believe that Daniel wrote about a time when "knowledge would become abundant" and "many will rove about" describes our time and seems to apply, such that we would do... well, what we are doing and as such, the words of Daniel would become known.

But the time for Jesus to come ... I don't believe we can pinpoint that in Daniel. I believe the end times, difficult days, will look like something that 'appears normal' from most people's standpoint. I believe that the events Daniel outlines will not be "Speilburg".

Even with all that can be known, and will be known, the majority 'miss it'. They don't see a thing. This idea is within the theme of all the prophets including Jesus Himself.

That said, I've spent too many years trying to find new ways to believe what I believed when the original reasons faded.

So, I took a fresh look.

 

Reference please.

Say Frank, if you could, please address the things I wrote. Thanks

 

It's not because some ears will remain deaf that some other eyes won't be wide open ?

 

Josh you said you don't believe the society is doing anything for Jehovah......I really can't let that pass without opening my big mouth once again...
That was a very discouraging remark to read..and I personally think very wrong .
I'm not going to use scriptures here but just reasoning....you see the society is just a tool.....all of us know its imperfections and errors....so there is no need to go into them.

Yet Jehovah has and indeed still uses that tool when he wishes something to be achieved...like the preaching work....wether it's done exactly how Jehovah wants it done I do not know...but he is making sure that his name Jehovah is being made known thru out the earth by his people ..and the society has organised that thru bibles,literature,meetings and assemblies.
There is still wheat within that society..how high up they manage to get I don't know.
Yet I know even since knowing what I know about the society...he still manages to give a faith strengthening talk to us all.
They might not be as often as we want them...but I have experienced ..a few excellent talks that built me up...and I knew the wheat was talking....I soooo appreciate those talks.

After all of Jehovah can make a donkey talk..do you not think he cannot make a brother/ elder / GB member give a talk of truth....if he sees his people .hurting to much.
Lately I have heard a number of donkeys talk

The preaching work is taken to the highest mountains...to the lowest valleys..to the hidden regions in all the world.
Who arranges that?
The society...BECAUSE and only because Jehovahs spirt is behind it..angelic direction finds Jehovahs sheep.
He uses the society to do his work and will....he manipulates them if needed to achieve it...thus the society does do things for him ....not of their own will and strength....but thru his...as it is for all of us ..

Jesus said to do as they say and not do as they do....surely we have the spiritual maturity to,see the wrongs ...but also to see when Jehovah uses the society.
I just don't want people to read that comment and think ..well why bother staying...or some one new just studying and searching to be put of from studying and learning of Jehovah.
The society is still teaching the correct doctrines ...promoting the preaching work..teaching good morals and to have love for each other.
Wether they practise that themselves is of no concern of ours.....we are not masters of their faith.
There will come a time when the WT will not be doing anything for Jehovah...when he steps in and disciplines them...but that is yet to happen.
Until then the society. Regardless or in spite of themselves ...still do good things for Jehovah and his people....sure one sometimes must dig deep....especially when one has been badly hurt or smited by the society...wrongfully.....but this is where spiritual maturity comes into it.
iTs all about calling a spade a spade.
Now I'm very politely going to ask JS BTJ and Apocalypse not to comment.

Sis thinking