Absolutely, without a belief in a Just God, humans are fleshly, soulical creatures.... mere animals..... Just that which Satan thinks that we are, that which his rebellion nearly got us into for good and that which he wants us to remain in forever and till our utter ruin... -------------------------------------------------------------------- a) Soulical But the natural man [the “soulical†man] does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Corinthians 2:14) The Greek word translated “soul†throughout the New Testament is psuche. This word has to do with “the natural life†of the individual. The soul is the seat of a person’s emotions, feelings, and desires pertaining to his man-conscious existence. The Greek word translated “natural†in 1 Corinthians 2:14 is psuchikos,a form of the word psuche. Psuchikosis the “natural†or “soulical†life (self-life) that man has in common with the animal kingdom. The soulical man is dominated or ruled by his soul, which includes all the experiences, desires, emotions, sensations, likes, and dislikes within the personal, natural life of the individual. Such likes, dislikes, etc. will vary from individual to individual, but all emanate from the soul-life of man. The soulical man is alienated from God and, thus, possesses no way to grasp spiritual truth. A man must be born from above — made alive spiritually — before he can possess spiritual discernment.
Hi Utuna: CLV 1C 15:45 If there is a soulish body, there is a spiritual also. Thus it is written~ also, The first humanman, Adam, "became into a living soul:" the last Adam into a vivifying Spirit. AV 1C 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.â€*+ The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. This is an interesting scripture that shows vividly how personal theology can skew an otherwise decent translation of the Bible. The WTBTS is not the only offender, of course, but this example speaks volumes on this point. To be at least consistent they should have finished this scripture with the expression that Jesus (who we all know was the last Adam) became an "angel". If you are going to substitute for one word "soul", it would only be consistent that you do the same thing with the second occurrence of the Greek word translated in English as "soul". If Adam was not "born again" either when he was created, or sometime later in his life, neither did Jesus (the last Adam) "become" a life giving spirit. This is not the only concern with this scripture. As you said in your comment a person (or "soulical man") has to be "born again" in order to be seen as "living" to God and yet Adam, (the first man Adam) is said to have "become" "a living soul". The only way that a soul can be "alive" spiritually is for them to be born again, which this scripture says is exactly what happened to the first Adam. "he became "a living soul", not a person which he already was. For more information on "what is a soul?", "what is a spirit?", look here http://truebiblecode.com/intro9.html . frank
I think I prefer the majority of translations as it pertains to 1Cor 15:45. It really brings out more meaning when it's translated correctly... New International Version "So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit." New Living Translation "The Scriptures tell us, "The first man, Adam, became a living person." But the last Adam--that is, Christ--is a life-giving Spirit." English Standard Version "Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living beingâ€; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit." New American Standard Bible "So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit." You are quite vague at times. Which time Jesus became an angel are you talking about? Jesus was created three times... Where is the precedence for this theory? #1, Adam was never born again, besides the fact that no one could be born again of spirit until after the 120 in the upper room. #2, To say that Adam somehow had to be born again in order for Jesus to become a life giving spirit has no basis in reality or so wholly connected in any way to each other. #3, Adam was as the angels. When one starts perfect but chooses in a perfect state not to obey Jehovah, they have no chance of forgiveness, they are to die, forever. So now you connect "became a living soul" is the exact same meaning as "Born again". Really Frank? Born again means you were alive once before, had died (in some way) and then live again. Becoming a living soul means that, that soul did not exist before. Becoming a living soul denotes creation and Jehovah never creates anything imperfect. Your statement connected two scriptures that have the exact opposite meaning. Really Frank, really? I've heard some tall ones in my time, but I seriously hope you don't believe what you are writing. Your joking with us right? Nice one...
Hi Josh: And Jehovah God went on to form the man out of dust+ from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life,+ and the man became a living person.* That asterisk takes you to a section that tells you that this word "translated" as "person" is actually "soul" or the Hebrew word nephish. During my 30 years as one of JW's that is what the New World Translation said, and I remember teaching this to people who thought otherwise. Now, you are teaching the exact opposite. You have and the WTBTS has made my point for me. They have changed their translation, that was accurate to begin with in order to give support to their own theology. When the King James does this we all shout "no way" from the housetops, but when the New World Translation does it, all I can hear coming my way is "amen". Was Jesus "born again"? Was he both soulish and spiritual? Just answer the question the way it is written and then I will go on with my comment. By the way, I believe the first three versions of the Bible that you quote to make your point are paraphrase versions. Really Joshua, you are kidding, correct? frank
Hi Josh: "Adam was as the angels. When one starts perfect but chooses in a perfect state not to obey Jehovah, they have no chance of forgiveness, they are to die, forever". This is a quote from your previous comments. Nowhere does it say that the angels were created perfect either, it's clear that they were not. In regards to never being able to be forgiven, another unscriptural delusion that sells the Love and Mercy of God well short. Show me one scripture in Genesis that shows that Jehovah God created anyone or anything "perfect". You cannot, because it does not exist. I did a word search for the word "perfect" which is used only two times in Genesis, one time referring to Noah and the other Abraham. Since both men although righteous in God's eyes were born in the line of Adam after he sinned, just exactly how were they "perfect"? In how they were created? Or was it perfect in geneology from Adam to Noah, with absolutely no blemish from the seed of the evil ones (seed) that came through Cain nor the angels that forsook their original dwelling places to cohabit with human women. Abraham on the other hand was seen as "perfect" I can only speculate as to his Faith in the True God Jehovah. Truly, it would take perfect faith to endure the test that Abraham endured with the task of sacrificing his son when he had waited so long for his coming as his heir. This idea of human perfection at creation is delusional thinking by the WTBTS that you have latched onto because it sounds good and is in line with other parts of your personal theology. The idea is not supported by scripture in any way, yet you and the majority of JW's cling to this fabrication. This idea is not found in the creation account in Genesis. Show me if it is. In regards to the "creation" during the first 6 days of the creative week Jehovah never uses the word perfect, but many times uses the word "good" in regard to the first 5 creative days of creation week. In regard to the sixth day of creation the Bible uses the term "very good", clearly well short of perfect. Just as the Jews clung to the ideas and teachings of Judaism even after Jesus came and died well into their time as a onetime true religion that was now a false religion, so has the Watchtower. They at onetime too were the one true faith on earth, but that came to an end when they greviously sinned against their heavenly Father without one ounce of repentance. Don't cling to the former true Christian Faith, you will eventually be very disappointed, if you are not already. You yourself admitted that you have the thinking that no one was "born again" by Holy Spirit before the Christian era. I do not share this spurious idea, but you do. If Adam could in no way have been "born again", then how can you sin against the Holy Spirit unless you have been blessed so as to be "born again" by Holy Spirit. That is who can sin against the Holy Spirit, those who have been adopted by it. A person who is not born again cannot sin against Holy Spirit as they have nothing to do with God's Spirit. People who are not "born again" can be aided by the Holy Spirit to tackle difficulties in life and with their faith, but they cannot in any way "sin" against it. Look at Hebrews 6 and 10 which outline the circumstances that must be satisfied in order to sin against God's Spirit. "For as regards those who were once enlightened+ and who have tasted the heavenly free gift (you yourself deny that Adam has done this) and who have become partakers of holy spirit (and this) 5 and who have tasted the fine word of God and powers of the coming system of things,*( did Adam taste the powers of the coming system of things when he died >5,000 years before?) 6 but have fallen away,+ it is impossible to revive them again to repentance, because they nail the Son of God to the stake again for themselves and expose him to public shame." Hebrews 6: 4-6. "For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth,+ there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left,+ 27 but there is a certain fearful expectation of judgment and a burning indignation that is going to consume those in opposition.+" Can you honestly say that Adam had recieved an "accurate knowledge" of the truth? Really Joshua, that is delusional thinking. Adam and Eve were created "very good" but not perfect. It seems that this is the way that Jehovah wanted it from the very beginning. He knew very well that when it comes to mankind, we learn best through experience, even if it is the experience with the knowledge of "good and bad". Adam and Eve were never perfect, but were "very good". frank
The definition of 'perfect' is pretty abstract and not well defined by the scriptures, but I think it's fair to say 'perfection' is being inline with Jehovah's will. Not total knowledge, not 'perfect moral' behavior. So I think Frank's point is fair enough, Adam and Eve weren't created morally perfect, and didn't have total knowledge. Their loss of perfection was when they went against Jehovah's will. They were perfect in so-far as they obeyed Jehovah. [how could Jehovah create morally perfect beings AND give them free will? he can't ... moral perfection is learned and CHOSEN] Another note: We are to be perfect as Jehovah is perfect, right? What is the context of that verse? It's within the framework of forgiveness!! Ergo, perfection in this case infers moral imperfection from others, because perfection is forgiving those who trespass against us! And there goes this thread ....
I completely disagree, Adam and Eve were created perfect physically, morally, and mentally. They were perfection within this universes ability. Jehovah would not and has never created anything less then perfection, and if anyone here thinks that Jehovah held something back from any creation they need to reconsider... To be honest this really surprises me from you guys... I completely disagree again. The angels did not need to learn anything. They had free will, were perfect and yet chose to disobey Jehovah. This is the same possition Adam and Eve were in... I see no separation of physical and spiritual perfection. They are both one in the same. You cannot have one without the other, they are the same. There is no grey area. Saying Adam and Eve were somewhere in between flies in the face of Jehovah's ability, love and purpose. Jesus was a perfect man like Adam. Jesus was perfect physically, mentally, spiritually, period. I can't believe this is even a subject. Are you prepared to say that Jesus wasn't perfect in some way? Jesus was just as Adam was before he sinned. Was Jesus perfect? I disagree that the word perfect is somehow abstract, it is quite clear what Jehovah's standards of perfection are, and that is in every way, such is the nature of the word "perfection".
Hi Joshua: Have you, along with the WTBTS simply "assumed" that Adam and Eve were totally perfect and deserve no forgiveness for their sins of choice, or is there a scripture that says they were totally perfect in every way? I have already informed you that Genesis only uses the word translated "perfect" on two occasions, that is in reference to Noah and Abraham, and certainly you can agree that neither of these men were actually perfect, and yet Jehovah chose to use that word in describing them and yet he did not make that same decision in regards to Adam and Eve. "Also, Adam was not deceived, but the woman was thoroughly deceived+ and became a transgressor. " 1 Tim. 2:14 Can a totally perfect person be deceived? Plus Adam, who was not deceived was guilty of the sin of choosing his "flesh of his flesh and bone of his bone," over Jehovah, and was very young and inexperienced and no match for Satan who had been around for eons) but Jehovah knew that this would happen. "That is why a man will leave his father and his mother and he will stick to* his wife, and they will become one flesh.+ 25 And both of them continued to be naked,+ the man and his wife; yet they were not ashamed." Genesis 2:24 You will notice that this is said just after Eve was presented to Adam and well before they sinned and yet Jehovah chose to put it in the form of a prophecy when he says "will leave". Yes, Adam chose to leave his Father (Jehovah) and his Mother (the Holy Spirit) and to cling to his new wife (bone of bone etc.) and they became one flesh, just as Jehovah said they would. This Joshua, you cannot ignore. Jehovah made them "very good" and they were exactly how he wanted them. That does not have to, and I think does not mean they had to be absolutely perfect. frank
Hi Joshua: If Jesus was perfect when he came to earth, you should be able to quote scripture saying just that! Yes, Jesus was "sinless" just like Adam was when he was created but this is where they differed in their course of action. Jesus remained faithful to his heavenly Father while under severe test and in this way "was made perfect" by this course of action. So, no Jesus was not perfect when he came to earth but when he left he was not only perfect in faith and obedience but also in Love. That is why he was elevated to a position over everyone except his heavenly Father. "During his life on earth,* Christ offered up supplications and also petitions, with strong outcries and tears,+ to the One who was able to save him out of death, and he was favorably heard for his godly fear. 8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered.+ 9 And after he had been made perfect,+ he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him,+ 10 because he has been designated by God a high priest in the manner of Mel·chiz′e·dek.+" Hebrews 5:7-10 You see Joshua, he was "made" perfect, which strongly implies that he was not already perfect before his unyielding obedience and Love. Also, a "perfect" person would not have to "learn obedience from the things he suffered", as he would already be perfect without the need to display such strong faith and obedience. Adam had the same opportunity as Jesus, but he chose his wife over his Creator, but as we have already seen by Genesis 2 this was all according to the plan of Almighty God Jehovah. When Adam chose this course, Jehovah put into action a plan that would redeem Adam and all the rest of mankind from sin and death which came to all because Adam sinned. But because of Jesus all will be made whole once again. YLT Ro 5:18 So, then, as through one offence to all men it is to condemnation, so also through one declaration of 'Righteous' it is to all men to justification of life; 19 for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous. And now, Christ hath risen out of the dead(the very theme of this thread) --the first-fruits of those sleeping he became, for since through man is the death, also through man is a rising again of the dead, for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence, then--the end, when he may deliver up the reign to God, even the Father, when he may have made useless all rule, and all authority and power-- for it behoveth him to reign till he may have put all the enemies under his feet-- the last enemy is done away--death; for all things He did put under his feet, and, when one may say that all things have been subjected, it is evident that He is excepted who did subject the all things to him, and when the all things may be subjected to him, then the Son also himself shall be subject to Him, who did subject to him the all things, that God may be the all in all. 1 Cor. 5:21-28 Since Adam was only "very good" and like Jesus when he came to earth was not "perfect", we can expect that Adam and Eve will also be resurrected from the dead ones as "all" dead ones will. You cannot have fully conquered death if there is even one person still in death, whether that be the first or second death. All death is conquered before Christ hands over the Kingdom to his heavenly Father. Jesus ransomed Adam for the scriptural principle is "soul for soul" not soul for 10 billion souls. Jesus simply had to ransom Adam. Once this was accomplished the way was opened for us to be forgiven as well. We die because out Father Adam died. We will live because both our Fathers, Jesus and Adam will live. Jesus already is Adam will be. frank
What time period are we talking about? And how are we defining perfect? Speculation is pointless, and potentially blasphemous outside the scriptures, but Hebrews discusses this: "For it was fitting that the one for whom and through whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the Chief Agent of their salvation perfect through sufferings." Hebrews 2:10 This actually isn't controversial at all, Jesus was exalted and 'made perfect' through his suffering. So were Adam and Eve made perfect? How are we defining perfect? Physically? Conceptually? Spiritually? If Jesus attained perfection, what experience helped Adam and Eve attain perfection? (the Bible doesn't say as far as I'm aware) I realize this is a touchy subject, and frankly, I don't think it's worth arguing about (or even speculating on beyond what the scriptures reveal) - but reason this through: did Adam understand the perfect moral law of Jehovah, as revealed by Jesus? No? Maybe? A bit yes, and a bit no? I did create this thread to exalt our Lord Jesus Christ But this reinforces the point ... Jesus, the King of Kings, did what Adam failed at!! Though being made perfect and obedient to God, Adam chose to become imperfect and disobey God. Jesus, being made in the same way, BECAME perfected in a true sense by remaining faithful. Therefore, we have two definitions of 'perfect' revealed. Edit: Frank, I'm sorry, you presented this really well and I responding to Joshua before reading your last post. We are in agreement bro. I'll leave my post, since I think the point that there are different definitions of 'perfect' in the scriptures is important to understand, since we are being asked to 'be perfect'.
I completely agree, wholeheartedly. Jehovah has held NOTHING back from us, in fact, he gave us everything. Job 38 is one of the best chapters in the Bible, it really puts this into perspective quite well. To suggest he held anything back is the equivalent of a toddler chiding his parents for why he can't drink beer ....
If we follow frank's reasoning, then Jehovah isn't perfect either and keeps being so since he doesn't know suffering or didn't have to learn obedience through sufferings.
Hi Utuna: Actually you simply have to read and reason on the scriptures to understand the true nature of Jesus, the Christ, who he is and was and has become. I know that the brothers at the Watchtower really strived to do this in their inception, but for some reason they seem to have given up trying to understand the true nature of Jehovah God and his son, his Christ. Perhaps it is because they thought they already had a complete understanding of the subject and quite trying to add to their "complete" knowledge. As most know on this board, I was one of Jehovah's Witnesses for many years, so I know pretty well what Jehovah's witnesses as a group think about the scriptures as I once was of that same mind. I too at one time felt that Jesus, like Adam, was "perfect" in all his ways right from the beginning of his creation by God. I felt that because of this fact Adam (who by reason was the first Jesus) must have sinned against the Holy Spirit and was not worthy of a resurrection from the dead. On it's surface, this is very "logical" thinking and makes a great deal of sense, and is an easy concept to accept as true and correct. But, does it stand up to a mature view of the scriptures? As to this question I have come to the conclusion that it does not. Like I have said in the past, you have the right to believe anything that you choose to and I am not here to try and "ruin" your faith in any way. What I am trying to do is to introduce you to another way of looking at the true nature of the Christ, at least as far as I see in God's Word of Truth. It's pretty clear from Hebrew 5 that Jesus "was made perfect" after "learning obedience by the things suffered" he "became" "responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him,+ 10 because he has been designated by God a high priest in the manner of Mel·chiz′e·dek.+" Now, in a symbolic sense Jesus was always these things because from the time he stepped forward in the heavens and said "here I am send me" when all the angels were asked to provide a ransom for Adam, he became the Messiah or the Christ. But he did not actually "become" these things officially until he had finished his time here on earth "faithfully" and completely. This is not my opinion, it is easy to see that this is what the scriptures are saying. In regards to Jesus becoming something that he already was not, Hebrews 5 is not the only scripture that we can site. Proverbs 8 speaks about "Wisdom personified", and as most know, this is a description of Christ Jesus. Below is a quote from Proverbs 8 which will be quite revealing if we read it closely. "Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way,+ The earliest of his achievements of long ago.+ 23 From ancient times* I was installed,+ From the start, from times earlier than the earth.+ 24 When there were no deep waters,+ I was brought forth,* When there were no springs overflowing with water. 25 Before the mountains were set in place, Before the hills, I was brought forth, 26 When he had not yet made the earth and its fields Or the first clods of earth’s soil. 27 When he prepared the heavens,+ I was there; When he marked out the horizon* on the surface of the waters,+ 28 When he established* the clouds above, When he founded the fountains of the deep, 29 When he set a decree for the sea That its waters should not pass beyond his order,+ When he established* the foundations of the earth, 30 Then I was beside him as a master worker.+ I was the one he was especially fond of+ day by day; I rejoiced before him all the time;+ 31 I rejoiced over his habitable earth, And I was especially fond of the sons of men.* 32 And now, my sons, listen to me; Yes, happy are those who keep my ways. 33 Listen to discipline+ and become wise, And never neglect it. 34 Happy is the man who listens to me By coming early to* my doors day by day, By waiting next to my doorposts; 35 For the one finding me will find life,+ And he receives approval from Jehovah. 36 But the one who ignores me harms himself,* And those who hate me love death.â€+ This will also show us that the Watchtower does what all other religions have done in the past, they change the translation of the scriptures to better fit their own version of theology rather than changing their own version of theology to fit the scriptures. Verse 30 used to say in part in the New World Translation (you can look it up in an older version if you so desire) 30 then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time (Proverbs 8). How did Jesus/Michael "come to be" the one that Jehovah was expecially fond of? Exactly how he became perfected on earth as a man as described in Hebrews 5, he completely obeyed and imitated the behavior of his heavenly Father. Was he created "the one that Jehovah was especially fond of"? Apparently not. He became that by his development of a complete character emulating his Father. You do this over time, not instantly. Also, Jesus himself showed how he has become who he is and who he will still yet become in a statement that he himself made in John 5. "Therefore, in response Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, the Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he sees the Father doing.+ For whatever things that One does, these things the Son does also in like manner. 20 For the Father has affection for the Son+ and shows him all the things he himself does, and he will show him works greater than these, so that you may marvel.+" John 5:19,20 So, Jesus/Wisdom became the one who Jehovah was especially fond of by imitating every aspect of his Father's behavior that he could including the time that he spent here on earth. So much so that the scriptures say that by observing Jesus behavior, we could likewise come to know his Father in the heavens. "Jesus said to him: “I am the way+ and the truth+ and the life.+ No one comes to the Father except through me.+ 7 If you men had known me, you would have known my Father also; from this moment on you know him and have seen him.â€+" John 14:6b,7 In regards to Jehovah and where he has come from and how he became who he is the scriptures are very sparse. We only know that before our sense of "time and space" Jehovah has always existed. Perhaps in the future when we are even more spiritually mature than we are now Jehovah will reveal pertinent details about his past that will reveal more about him as he has done to the Christ, Jesus/Michael. For now though, we should be concerned about learning as much as we can about the Christ and never assume that we know it all because that way of thinking is a sure fire way of never knowing the truth. It seems that the Watchtower, like most all other religions has become "fossilized" in their thinking in this regard, thinking that they already know it all. Don't follow their example. Keep on Seeking, Knocking and Asking as Jesus commanded us. frank
http://biblehub.com/hebrews/2-10.htm "him it became--to make the Captain of their salutation perfect through sufferings; Christ is "the Captain of salvation", and is so called, because he is the author of it; and he is the Prince and Commander of these sons, who are committed to his charge, and are under his care; and is their guide and leader; and who is gone before them to prepare their mansions of glory for them: and he is made "perfect through sufferings"; he suffered all that the law and justice of God could require; and hereby he became perfectly acquainted with the sufferings of his people, and a perfect Saviour of them; and in this way went to glory himself: that his own Son should perfectly suffer for them; this was agreeable to, and becoming the perfections of his nature, his wisdom, his veracity, his justice, grace, and mercy." I believe you two are misquoting Hebrews 2:10. It's not that he becomes perfect through suffering, Jesus was already perfect. It's that through his suffering he perfectly comes acquainted with the sufferings of his people in order to become their savior. Just because he hasn't accomplished his goal yet did not make him imperfect physically or spiritually before accomplishing that goal. Hebrews 2:10 is simply speaking of Jesus perfectly becoming that Savior of which he was not before his death. Adam was perfect within what he was given. Not having full knowledge is irrelevant. Adam was perfect physically and spiritually. He would have "continued" to grow in perfection as he learned and grew, just as the angels and every creation of Jehovah. Because Jesus became a perfect salvation for us upon his death, this means that he was not our Savior until after he suffered however, in no way was he not perfect in every way before. Accomplishing something new does not make you less perfect before accomplishing said task. It was their salvation that was made perfect when Jesus fulfilled this upon his suffering.
If Adam were to continue growing in perfection, then he hadn't attained perfection in a complete sense. (but I agree, he was physically and spiritually perfect, before sinning) Jesus, as far as we know, was never tested like Adam until he was born as a human. He conquered where Adam failed, and therefore attained perfection regarding obedience to Jehovah. (complete faith and obedience to Jehovah's will in this case == perfection) He was also sinless, and therefore perfect morally. Exactly! So, I go back to asking what is the definition of 'perfection' - the answer it would seem is: it depends on what we're talking about. I'm in no way suggesting Jesus was imperfect before his suffering.
That is a false equivocation though In this case, Jesus attained perfection through complete obedience to Jehovah. Jehovah is the 'prime being' and therefore has no one to be obedient to; this definition of 'perfection' does not apply to him. Jehovah is perfect as God. Jesus is perfect as the son of God. Adam was perfect as a creature until he sinned. Perfection in fulfilling the role, and in our case, 'perfection' means forgiving others of their imperfection. <- that is why this is a good discussion. So while we may attain a sense of perfection one day, we probably will never be flawless [but given billions of years ... who knows]. Only Jehovah and Jesus (the image) are flawless. Sometimes we equate those words wrongly I think, flawless and perfection.