By inspiration, Peter notes that heaven and earth were created at the flood. And of course, this is the case as each creative day was a thousand years long, and the flood fell within the second creative day. "For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." 2Pt 3:5-8
Open question: • What were "the heavens" and "the earth" before the Deluge? • If the Deluge was literally a deluge in Noah's day, then isn't the corollary to "the heavens" and "the earth" that Peter refers to as "being stored up for fire" literally an inferno? A literal firestorm? To go with: "The heavens" are taken out (along with "the earth") by means of the Deluge. That much is made clear in the relevant passages in our scriptures. • A literal Flood came in Noah's day, so what is the corollary for "the heavens" in Noah's day? How does one literally Flood "the heavens", then? I'll take my answer off the air for now. Submitted for your perusal and consideration, A believer named Timothy
I would say there were no heavens and earth before the flood. Heaven was a creation to separate the waters from above (the angels) from those below (mankind). Where once the spirit realm resided with humanity, the creation of a separation called heaven meant that the spirit realm would no longer reside with man. Hence, one day God will return to residing with man, burning up this separation between man and God. Peter tells us the earth was formed out of the flood. That earth was the establishment of God's plan on earth. The heavens and the earth were created at the flood, and by means of these (God's plans), the world of that time was deluged. The heavens that separate the spirit realm from the heavenly will be done away with in the future, along with the earthen plan of mankind coming together out of the seas in the name of God. Zion was the mountain of God; the waters spread so that the ark could cross when dry land appeared at the Red Sea and Jordan river. Genesis one is a road map to understanding all metaphors throughout Scripture.
Hmm. Would you mind providing scriptures to support this? No commentary on the scriptures (yet)-- just the scriptures you are basing this on, please. Especially in light of Genesis 7:11, which records, "In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, on the seventeenth day of the second month—on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened." And with it, Genesis 8:2, which records, "The springs of the deep and the floodgates of the heavens were closed, and the rain from the sky was restrained." --Timothy
Again, it would be helpful if I could have a look at the scriptures that lead you to reaching this view before I understand your assertion. And so anyone reading this will better understand what you are saying. Evidently, the expression "heavens and earth" finds prominence in Genesis. Using the Watchtower organization's Watchtower Library, I see the expression appears 107 times. Deuteronomy isn't far behind, with 71 appearance of the expression. After that, Isaiah and Jeremiah, important prophets appearing to God's nation during the Mosaic Age. The expression appears 73 and 63 times, respectively. The last number of appearances of the expression "heavens and earth" approaching the aforementioned is found in Daniel, where it appears 50 times. Even in the first century scriptures, the expression finds a diminished number of appearances, with 2 Peter having the most to say on the subject during the first century— and the final century of the Mosaic Age. The opening words of our Bible speak of them: In [the] beginning God created the heavens and the earth — Genesis 1:1 NWT, et al. The majority of translations bear the same in this case. Whatever "the heavens and the earth" are, God is the source of its existence. Whether referring to the physical heavens and physical earth, or to a spiritual heavens and physical earth, or to a spiritualization of the passage— the inescapable truth remains that God is the source of its existence, setting the baseline for everything that has come to pass since. But I'd be interested in your scriptural references to determine if I'm seeing what you are, if we are at least in agreement on the baseline I suggested. Submitted for your perusal and consideration, --Timothy
Greetings brother, My scriptural reference is the lack of discussion of the heavens and earth between Gen 1:1 and the flood. As well as the use of metaphors throughout Scripture to define God's plans. As you have mentioned, there are physical heavens and a spiritual, just as there is a physical earth and a spiritual. I believe the "beginning" in Gen 1:1 was after the fall of man. The beginning is God's plan to repair what occurred in the garden and is mentioned in Gen 3:15. In the beginning, God created His means of ending sin and darkness on the earth by bringing into the world the LIght to end the darkness. Genesis one is a map to understand all metaphors throughout the Bible. The heavens and the earth that were created in Gen 1:1 was the future plan to separate the spiritual realm from the earthly, bring about a people for His name out of the earth, and to bring into the world the Light of man, etc... Before the flood, angels and the spirit realm resided with man; and at the creation of the spiritual heavens at the flood, this separated the waters of angels from the waters of man. Hence why mankind and angels as a whole are discussed as seas throughout Scripture. And from Noah, an earthly gathering of His people would come from man and discussed as earth. The waters divided at the Red Sea, and dry land appeared. The waters split at the Jordan, and dry land appeared. God gathered a people for Himself out of the earth to a mountain called Zion. This is why the current heavens and earth will be burned with fire. One day there will no longer be a separation of the spirit realm and mankind; God will reside with man once again; hence no more heavens. And there will be no need to gather a people to Himself out of the earth; therefore, the world of mankind will be burned up. Not the physical heavens nor physical earth. This is why Peter says that by the existence of heavens and earth, the world of Noah's day was flooded. The creation of heavens and earth at the flood meant the deluge brought the separation of angels from man. When did the heavens "exist," as Peter is discussing? When the earth was formed out of water, at the deluge. This is the secret he says has been hidden... Jesus understood He was the Light that came into the world to separate the light from darkness in fulfillment of Gen 1:3. "And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness." Gen 1:3,4 "Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.” Jhn 8:12 All love, Joshua
I will have to wait until later this week to more fully respond, but I wanted to ask (if I asked this before, please forgive me) if you have seen or read Francis Febus' The Prophecy of Genesis One which bears similarities to what you are expressing. --Timothy
References? {I'm still considering what you wrote, but would like to see your references for this assertion.} Thank you, in advance, Timothy
Greetings brother, I was doing some re-reading through some of our past discussions, and this one was one I stopped on. Firstly, I think I need to readjust my stance slightly on there not being heavens and earth before the flood. As you know, I believe Gen 1 is prophetic and that each creative day is one-thousand years long. Now, within each creative day, we are told about events that don't necessarily have to come at the end of those thousand years but simply during. Secondly, I didn't really address your concern about the waters being literal at the flood, yet the heavens and earth are spiritual. So, I considered these points in great detail last evening. I believe it is more appropriate to look at the heavens and earth, as well as the waters, all with a dual-lens. These terms are clearly used throughout the first few chapters of Gen to show YHWH's authority over the physical realm. However, it is just as apparent to me that God has used these chapters as a sort of thesaurus for all inspired writing thereafter. In the beginning, God made the heavens and the earth. This beginning can represent our universe and the beginning spoken of in John 1. God brings forth the light that separates the light from the darkness on the first day of creation. This was Christ and God's plan in Gen 3:15. And you know what Christ said about darkness, and day and nights. Gen 3:15 was the beginning of prophecy. This began the first day of creation and its first one-thousand years from the fall of man. Therefore, for my understanding to work, "In the beginning" (Gen 1:1) must represent not only the physical universe but also the spiritual. Consequently, the creation of heaven spiritually in Gen 1:1 must mean it was part of God's overall plan from the very beginning in Gen 3:15. This shouldn't be surprising given that God saw all things from the begging to the end. One example: "Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, ‘My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’" Ish 46:10 And: "But we should always thank God for you, brothers who are loved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning to be saved by the sanctification of the Spirit and by faith in the truth." 2 Thes 2:13 Now since Gen 1:1 also has prophetic representations, the waters that God's Spirit hovers over is man. "He sent from on high, he took me; he drew me out of many waters. He rescued me from my strong enemy, from those who hated me, for they were too mighty for me." 2 Sam 22:17,18 Who are the waters above in the heavens? "Praise the LORD! Praise the LORD from the heavens; praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels; praise him, all his hosts! Praise him, sun and moon, praise him, all you shining stars! Praise him, you highest heavens, and you waters above the heavens!" Psm 147:1_4 And who are the waters below the heavens? "God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good." Gen 1:10 "He shall pass through the sea of troubles and strike down the waves of the sea, and all the depths of the Nile shall be dried up. The pride of Assyria shall be laid low, and the scepter of Egypt shall depart." Zech 10:11 "And the angel said to me, “The waters that you saw, where the prostitute is seated, are peoples and multitudes and nations and languages." Rev 17:15 ------- Then the waters are parted in the third day, and dry land appears at the Red Sea and the Jordan, on the way to gather all of the waters to one place at Mount Moriah. Then all of the trees, fruits, and vegetation that is yielded during the third day from 2000 BCE to 1000 BCE in Jerusalem is well documented. Even Christ spoke of these metaphors. Then I could go on to the fourth day of creation and all the stars that are brought forth, just as promised to Abraham during the fourth day from 1000 BCE to 1 BCE. "I will multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and will give to your offspring all these lands. And in your offspring all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because Abraham obeyed my voice and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.” Gen 26:4,5 Anyway, just a few thoughts... All Christian love Joshua