Preterism vs Dispensationalism

Discussion in 'Bible Prophecy' started by Joshuastone7, Jan 19, 2021.

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    Timothy Kline

    Timothy Kline New Member

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    ____________

    I agree: it's all connected, so the pieces must fit.

    And those are all valid questions, although it will take some time to go through each— I'll certainly give it my best efforts. Remember how I said at the outset that I completely get how swiftly the "OK, then what about ______" questions come pouring out? :p

    That the Jewish revolt against Antiochus Epiphanies was not the fulfillment (although Jews up into the first century believed it was) of Daniel's vision can be verified by scripture:

    So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’ described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. —Matthew 24:15-16 Berean Study Bible

    So when you see the abomination of desolation standing where it should not be (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. —Mark 13:14 Berean Study Bible

    Jesus does not tell his disciples, "Remember the Seleucid revolt? Well, it's going to be like what happened back then" but rather he calls to their mind the prophecy Daniel recorded concerning the "abomination of desolation," completely disregarding an opportunity to establish a precedent in Jewish history as an example of what was to come.

    As you rightfully ask, "What was the Abomination set up in the temple in 70CE?"

    I'll need to pick up this discussion at this point, tomorrow morning, brother, as I need to tend to a few things here (offline world) before I head off to work, and I still want to weigh in on a separate post of yours RE: prayer.

    A fellow believer,
    Timothy
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    Greetings brother!

    I look forward to your response on that thread. It's a fascinating subject...

    Might I ask, do you think Antiochus putting an idol in the temple and the sacrifices ceasing a coincidence in light of Jesus' words?

    Didn't Babylon destroy the temple once before? Why didn't Jesus say the temple's destruction would be like how Babylon had destroyed it previously?

    I'm not sure Jesus' not mentioning a past Abomination in the temple discounts a future fulfillment simply because he doesn't mention it. He doesn't mention the prior destruction of the temple.

    What do you think? Could not a prophecy repeat?

    "What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun." Ecc 1:9

    "As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark." Mth 24:37.38

    I'm glad you brought up "imminence" again. When you contemplate your reply, I imagine all of Jesus' words will have imminence applied to them. Including the raising of the dead, the sun and moon darkened, his being seen in the clouds. If you believe all things were imminent, then these things must have been as well, I am assuming...

    Also, Jesus said there would be a great tribulation with nothing ever like it again. Have we not had wars that have killed many hundreds of times more people than in 70 CE? Did not more Jews die in WWII than in 70 CE? It just seems to me it takes more 'explanation' to verify Preterism than Dispensationalism. Is that fair to say?

    Jesus also said that if he didn't stop it, "no flesh would survive." How did he stop it? How was it that no flesh would have survived?

    You are right; the questions start to come out...lol "But what about this, and what about that." ;)

    Well, I am enjoying the conversations!

    Good day brother...
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Another question, brother: Who was the Elijah to come?

    Thanks, brother...
     
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    Timothy Kline

    Timothy Kline New Member

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    Good morning, brother,

    I'll try my best to address what you wrote/asked about:


    Are you referring to Antiochus IV Epiphanies, who ruled from 175 BCE until 164 BCE? There were several rulers who ruled before the Christian era, who were named Antiochus.

    I'll respond on the assumption that you are, but, yes, correct me if I'm addressing the wrong one.

    The Jewish revolt led by the Maccabees wrested control of Judea from Antiochus IV and established the Hasmonean Dynasty. From it, we have the First Book of Maccabees, which details the revolt. The Second Book of Maccabees details the fight against the influence of Hellenism among the Jews, as Hellenization was perceived as a perfidious influence upon the Jews, and rightfully so for the ideas and notions it brought to the community due to Greek "higher thinking."

    I think it's the prevailing view of preterists and non-preterists alike that the act of Antiochus IV placing the idol of Zeus (who became known as Jupiter under later, Roman religion) in the Temple at Jerusalem is or qualifies as the "abomination of desolation." This much is certain: fervent Jews viewed this idol as little more than a perversion of "Baal Shamem" and the offensiveness of an idol of Baal [Shamem] in the Temple was of a great enough magnitude that Judas Maccabbeus and his sons initiated the revolt, but not until after an initial period of passive resistance of the Ḥasidim (pious ones) which resulted in their martyrdom.

    I'm summarizing extensively here, though, so, as always, correct me where I misspoke.

    The question you ask is whether Antiochus IV ordering the placement of this idol in the temple and ordering the cessation of the Jewish religion was a coincidence with Jesus' statement on the subject of the abomination of desolation, or, perhaps, of much more prophetic significance.

    To this day, the Jewish people certainly hold the view that Antiochus IV's actions led to the abomination of desolation foretold by Daniel, and, as I mentioned, most Christian believers today likewise hold this view (while expecting a yet-future re-enactment/fulfillment).

    All this, you already know, however. What you would like to know is where I stand on this (as if what I think or believe is of any consequence).

    Let's start by first establishing the context of Jesus' words when he was speaking of the abomination of desolation...

    Usually, a discussion like this begins right about here:

    Departing now, Jesus was on his way from the temple, but his disciples approached to show him the buildings of the temple.
    In response he said to them: "Do YOU not behold all these things? Truly I say to YOU, By no means will a stone be left here upon a stone and not be thrown down."
    While he was sitting upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: "Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?"
    — Matthew 24:1-3 New World Translation

    However, the context of Jesus referring to the abomination of desolation which he was speaking to begins before this conversation, as evidenced by the disciples asking him "When will these things be...?"

    "These things" which the disciples are asking him about are not the "these things" which Jesus asks whether they behold as they were leaving the Temple. It makes no sense for Jesus to say "By no means will a stone be left here upon a stone and not be thrown down" and then the disciples to ask a question that is in the plural— referring to more than the single event Jesus just told them.

    In other words, they are not asking him when will this be (which would refer to Jesus declaring that there will not be a stone left upon a stone), but, rather, when will these things be. So, I understand this to mean that they are asking about something(s) that came up before they left the Temple— so I start backwards from this point.

    Contextually
    , Jesus had just issued his several "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees" denouncements before leaving the Temple that day.

    Notably, Jesus started this series of Woes with this profound declaration, when he spoke to the crowds and his disciples who were there:

    Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the seat of Moses." — Matthew 23:1-2 New World Translation

    Among those pronouncements, Jesus had told the scribes and Pharisees to "fill up the measure of [their] forefathers" for they were not to escape the "judgment of Gehenna":

    Well, then, fill up the measure of YOUR forefathers. Serpents, offspring of vipers, how are YOU to flee from the judgment of Ge·hen'na? —Matthew 23:32-33 New World Translation

    Jesus then goes on to say:

    For this reason, here I am sending forth to YOU prophets and wise men and public instructors. Some of them YOU will kill and impale, and some of them YOU will scourge in YOUR synagogues and persecute from city to city; that there may come upon YOU all the righteous blood spilled on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zech·a·ri'ah son of Bar·a·chi'ah, whom YOU murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Truly I say to YOU, All these things will come upon this generation. —Matthew 23:34-36 New World Translation

    Finally, Jesus closes with:

    Look! YOUR house is abandoned to YOU. For I say to YOU, YOU will by no means see me from henceforth until YOU say, 'Blessed is he that comes in Jehovah's name! —Matthew 23:38-39 New World Translation

    Therefore, it seems prudent for me to take the disciples' question of "When will these things be" to be concerning what Jesus had just said to the crowds and the disciples, before leaving the Temple.

    To wit: They wanted to know when Jesus would be "sending forth" "prophets and wise men and public instructors" who would be "kill[ed] and impale[d]... scourge[d] in the synagogues and persecute[d] from city to city." They wanted to know because Jesus said on no uncertain terms that this would take place in their lifetime, in their generation (Matthew 23:36).

    And they were wanting to know when Jesus' words, "You will by no means see me from henceforth until you say, 'Blessed is he that comes in Jehovah's name!'" would take place— keeping in mind that the disciples had no comprehension that the Messiah they had long looked for was to be put to death or "go away" in any sense of the expression. (Pre-resurrection: Cf John 13:36; John 14:1-5; John 16:1-7; Post-resurrection: Acts 17:2-3)

    Having established the context for a discussion of the "abomination of desolation," I, unfortunately, have to stop here, but will continue tomorrow morning, God willing.

    As far as it's possible for you, hit the Pause button on your reply until I can finish my response first, though.

    Hold that thought! LOL!

    A fellow believer,
    Timothy
    ____________________________
    [Yet to be responded to:]

     
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    Joshuastone7

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    Timothy Kline

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    Good morning, brother,

    I'm getting a late start this morning, I'm afraid (the extra hour and half hour of sleep was nice, but...). Still, let's see how the discussion progresses.

    We left off with Jesus having given the "woes" to the Pharisees and scribes in front of the crowd and his disciples. (Matthew 23:1-38) Then, as Jesus and his disciples exited Jerusalem and went to the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Jesus (Matthew 24:3; cf Matthew 13:11) asking him to tell them when the things Jesus had just made known would come to pass, and how they would know the time had come when one would say, "Blessed is he that comes in Jehovah's name!" (Matthew 23:39) and with it, the end of the [present] age.

    While He was seated on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately and said, Tell us, when will this take place, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end (the completion, the consummation) of the age? —Matthew 24:3 Amplified Bible

    The New World Translation renders this as:

    While he was sitting upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: "Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?" —Matthew 24:3 New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures

    I don't know that we need to spend any time on evaluating the NWT's choice of rendering αἰών (aion) [age] as the system of things since, for the purposes of our discussion, I can work with it.

    Allow me to elaborate:

    The Jews of Jesus' day viewed matters in terms of a given age (aion). For example, there was the aion of Noah, and that world (kosmos) which existed before the Flood which ended that aion (age).

    ...God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them deep into hell,a placing them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment; if He did not spare the ancient world when He brought the flood on its ungodly people, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, among the eight; —2 Peter 2:4-5 Berean Study Bible

    The apostle Paul likewise refers to the then-present aion (age), in his epistle to the Ephesian believers, where he wrote:

    I ask that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you may know the hope of His calling, the riches of His glorious inheritance in the saints, and the surpassing greatness of His power to us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of His mighty strength, which He exerted in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. —Ephesians 1:18-21 Berean Study Bible

    Jesus also makes reference to the coming aion, as recorded in Luke's gospel:

    He said to them: "Truly I say to YOU, There is no one who has left house or wife or brothers or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God who will not in any way get many times more in this period of time [aion, age] , and in the coming system of things [aion, age] everlasting life." —Luke 18:29-30 New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures

    In any aion (age) there is an established kosmos (world) under which humankind lives. This kosmos is often described throughout the scriptures as the "heavens and earth" of that respective aion. So, when we read that the "heavens and earth" are passing away, it is simultaneous with the passing of a given aion. The New World Translation's use of the expression "system of things" for aion is pretty close to the target here (although the Watchtower's eschatology goes off in a different direction, of course), as I hope to illustrate as we move through this discussion.

    That raises the question: what was the kosmos (heavens and earth) of the aion in which the apostles and Jesus lived? After all, the preterist view is that all has been fulfilled as far as Biblical prophecy, right?

    And what bearing, from a preterist's perspective, does this have (if any) in what Jesus told his disciples in his "sermon on the mount," when he said:

    Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them [the Law and the Prophets]. For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. —Matthew 5:17-18 Berean Study Bible

    Or:

    When, now, he had received the sour wine, Jesus said: "It has been accomplished!" and, bowing his head, he delivered up [his] spirit. —John 19:30 New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures

    With your continuing patience, I'd like to pick the discussion up here tomorrow, God willing. It'll be Saturday tomorrow, which should grant me much more time to spend here with you.

    A fellow believer,
    Timothy
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    Greetings brother,

    If Jesus was saying he came to fulfill all prophecies from the past, what about the ones that were fulfilled before his earthly life? Or the ones fulfilled in others such as John the Baptist?

    "The land enjoyed its sabbath rests; all the time of its desolation it rested, until the seventy years were completed in fulfillment of the word of the LORD spoken by Jeremiah." 2Cor 36:21

    Were there not many prophecies fulfilled outside of his work?

    If Jesus didn't mean 'every' prophecy, then how would you narrow down which ones he was talking about?

    Does this scripture come into play?

    "He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms." Luk 24:44

    Could Jesus have meant he fulfilled those things "written about him?"

    Another question: I am assuming you believe Jesus has already come and eaten a meal with his disciples? "For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of God." Luk 22:16

    All love brother, thanks...

    AJ
     
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    Timothy Kline

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    Good morning, brother,

    I woke up and couldn't go back to sleep so I thought I'd make myself useful and spend some more time on the discussion...

    Returning to the subject of the ending of the aion which the disciples were asking Jesus about...

    The Jews understood that the time in which they lived was the Mosaic aion. It was the aion (age) during which the Law of Moses operated as the covenant between God and Man— specifically, God's people (the Jews) and Jehovah. The aion (age) they looked forward to was the Messianic aion, when God would— instead of writing His laws upon tablets of stone— write His law upon their hearts. A further distinction with the Messianic aion would be that there would no longer be Jew or Gentile, as there had during the entirety of the Mosaic aion (age). Every believer, Jew and Gentile alike, would have access to the Holy of Holies. This was a monumental paradigm shift for Jews of the first century who had grown accustomed to the exclusivity they had in their relationship with Jehovah! (The layout of the Temple was a wonderful earthly example of the position of Jews and Gentiles in relation to the Holy of Holies, which is to say to Jehovah Himself.)

    The daily sacrifice— and with it the Temple, the priesthood, the genealogical records and, ultimately, Jerusalem itself— ended by 70CE. Of this there can be no doubt unless you are aware of something I am not.

    If these things have ended, then the covenant by which these things were established is likewise ended, is my understanding. And if the covenant has ended, then the aion during which the covenant was in effect has ended. That is, the Mosaic aion has achieved its goals and lies behind us today by some two millennia.

    Believers today no longer live under that covenant, although we live by the principles of that covenant.

    In summation, today, God writes His laws upon our heart. We understand that a man isn't only committing adultery, for example, by engaging in the physical act of adultery— but by lusting toward a woman so as to want to or imagine doing so while married. Believers today understand that one may not technically sin, yet have sin in their heart's inclination.

    Rather than offering a daily sacrifice at a physical Temple as established in the former covenant, believers come to recognize that they are become living temples in which holy spirit dwells, with our daily sacrifice constituted by our thoughts and actions accordingly.

    And I could go on with other examples that demonstrate that as believers today we no longer live under the Law of Moses, but I think these suffice.

    If the former covenant has passed away, then, from the Jewish perspective, the kosmos (heavens and earth) has passed away as well, since the kosmos consists of those elements that govern how we live and relate with our God in the heavens, as I mentioned in my previous post.

    But if these things are so— and it certainly appears to be so, given the real-world evidence (we are no longer under the Law of Moses, the Temple is destroyed, Jerusalem of old is no longer where we need to go to meet with our God, etc)— then the new covenant must now be in place, for there must be a covenant (read: contractual promise between two parties) through which believers have relationship with Jehovah.

    However, if believers have come under the new covenant, then this also means that we live under the kosmos (heavens and earth) of that new covenant— the Law of Moses was part of the former kosmos, the former aion; the Law of Christ is part of the new kosmos, the aion to come (from the perspective of those living prior to the destruction of Jerusalem and with it the "elements" of that former kosmos).

    In other words: are we, as believers today, still living under the Law of Moses (and thus, former heavens and earth), or under the Law of Christ (and thus, new heavens and earth)? The answer to that question establishes which aion (age) we are living in: the Mosaic aion or the Messianic aion.

    To wit: the preterist perspective is that the former covenant, with its kosmos, has passed away, the new covenant has come. The futurist perspective is that we still await the arrival of the new covenant, with its kosmos. . . which means that we must still be living in the Mosaic aion, since the Law of Moses was to endure until the end of the (Mosaic) aion, as attested by the scriptures I referenced in my previous post. The futurist perspective attempts to establish a distinction between being in the new covenant and living in the new kosmos, that they are somehow mutually exclusive when the scriptural historical evidence demonstrates otherwise: a covenant establishes how we have a relationship with Jehovah.

    Again, I want to emphasize this point: we can determine in which "heavens and earth" (kosmos, "system of things") we live by establishing which covenant we are under since the covenant that is in effect establishes how we are in relationship to and with Jehovah God. Under the former "heavens and earth," God's spirit dwelt in the Temple. Under the new "heavens and earth," God's spirit dwells in living temples: each believer.

    Having beaten this aspect of the discussion to death, let me see if I can move along...*

    —Timothy

    * Deb and I had a chuckle a few days ago when she was reading one of the earlier posts of mine that I had printed out for her. During our conversation, I inadvertently said that I was more prefacist than preterist, judging by my posts where it often feels like I'm prefacing on a matter. It's not intentional, please understand. More like me just thinking aloud, really, through writing. This is also why you'll see me repeat something in a given post I said earlier already, only a little differently. The struggle is real. o_O
     
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    Timothy Kline

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    [Continuing from previous post...]

    At the risk of more "prefacing," I want to respond to something you asked earlier in this discussion:

    No, I believe (presently) that the unique nature of prophecy establishes that there is no such thing as saying this event or that event partially fulfills a prophecy. A situation or event must fully match a prophecy to establish fulfillment. Otherwise, we know that it (a prophecy) has not yet been fulfilled. It is upon this basis that a believer can distinguish between prophecies that are false and those which are true, as exemplified in the collections of Watchtower and non-Watchtower predictions I attached to an earlier post in the discussion.

    Nor is a prophecy repeatedly fulfilled, once having been fulfilled in its purpose. This is especially true in the matter of the Messianic prophecies.

    The scriptural reference from Ecclesiastes, contextually, is speaking to the things we do throughout our lives and the weariness that comes in our later years when we come to the point where we've "done it all" and there seems nothing to look forward to doing (chicken cassserole again?). While I grant that one could try applying the passage to prophecy, doing so requires taking the passage out of its context.

    Would you provide an example of a Bible prophecy that was fulfilled twice within the Bible?

    As I presently understand, this second scriptural reference, involving the "days of Noah" and the "coming of the Son of Man" isn't a prophecy, but rather falls into the types/antitypes that we find throughout the Bible. Jesus is here using a precedent of what it will be like— he is not referring to a previous prophecy and its second fulfillment—either in his day or in ours. [If you are aware of a prophecy prior to the Flood which prophecied that in the days leading up to the Flood, people would be eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day that Jehovah closed the door of the ark, then be sure to include it in your response to me writing this here, though. As far as I know, while the Flood itself was prophecied, the people's unresponsiveness to Noah's warnings of what was coming was not territory that was covered. In other words, there were no signs or indications leading up the Flood that established the Flood's imminence or inevitability— insofar as I am scripturally aware— apart from Jehovah telling Noah that the Flood would come and what Noah needed to do to prepare and preserve himself and his family.

    I'll try to incorporate and respond to your other questions as I proceed here, of course.

    For now, let's examine the scriptural record and the preterist perspective, picking up where I left off before— with the disciples coming to Jesus upon the Mount of Olives, following his issuance of the woes against the scribes and the Pharisees, along with the pronouncement of the destruction of Jerusalem...

    And in answer Jesus said to them: "Look out that nobody misleads YOU; for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many. —Matthew 24:4-5 New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures (NWT, going forward from this point, for brevity's sake)

    Let's start with what is called "audience relevance." In other words, is Jesus here speaking past his disciples, down to us believers in our day? By way of illustration, let's say that I've come to you and asked you to explain something you said earlier. When you answer me, are you, in fact, not speaking to me, instead directing your answer to— let's say Jinnvisible? Maybe I was with you when you were earlier talking about a tornado that was expected that evening, so I come to you and ask how I can know a tornado's coming (presumably, so I can prepare for it). Of what benefit is it if, in responding to my question, you speak past me, to Jinnvisible, who lives somewhere that won't be impacted by the tornado that evening? You and I are in Kansas that afternoon; Jinnvisible is in Florida (physical proximity to the event), or he won't even be in Kansas until next month (temporal proximity to the event).

    It is on this basis that I understand Jesus to be speaking to his disciples when he tells them "Look out that nobody misleads you," and not to me, living two millennia hence. (We'll see this same statement end-capped with Matthew 24:24 (and Mark 13:22)).

    It can be established historically that there were, indeed, false Christs in the time leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem, because Rome put such ones to death. [Fn 1, below]

    YOU are going to hear of wars and reports of wars; see that YOU are not terrified. For these things must take place, but the end is not yet. —Matthew 24:6 NWT

    Jesus tells his disciples that they are going to hear of wars and reports of wars, but not to be disturbed by these, since they "must take place." Jesus explains that although these things "must take place," that "the end is not yet."

    What "end" is Jesus speaking about? The majority view today is that he is referring to the end of time, or modern Christendom's "end-times." This includes the Watchtower's interpretation and eschatology as I remember it. But majority views are not necessarily correct, are they? For example, the majority view of modern-day Christendom is that the Trinity is a sound, Bible-based doctrine— that doesn't establish Trinitarianism as the correct teaching does it? The majority of modern-day adherents of Christendom are of Catholicism's persuasion, but does this establish Catholicism as the correct creed?

    "End" here comes from the original Greek word, telos, and denotes the ending of something purposed to cease, and since I've tried to establish to this point in the discussion that the disciples are asking Jesus their question because they want to know when the aion of Moses is ending, I understand Jesus here to be speaking to the end of the system of things (heavens and earth) which had been in place since Moses, when the Law of Moses governed the believer's relationship with Jehovah through ritual and sacrifice in accordance with said Law.

    "For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another." —Matthew 24:7 NWT

    Can it be established that nation arose against nation in the time before Jerusalem was destroyed? The revolt of the Jews in 66 CE confirms the truthfulness of Jesus' words, but it was the culmination of a resistance against Rome's governorship that was already in motion in Jesus's day (Barabbas was an insurrectionist, as I recall). The Jews, inspired by their earlier victory during the Maccabean conflicts, were hoping to break from Rome's yoke as well. Notably, the historian Josephus recorded how there were factions among the Jews, all with their own motivations and aspirations as far as this Jewish-Roman conflict, and that these factions did more harm within the walls of Jerusalem in its final days, than the Roman army did.

    Many modern-day believers do see an even higher understanding in Jesus' referring to there coming a "kingdom against kingdom," although they do so with the benefit of hindsight. It is in hindsight that said believers perceive that what was to take place was a conflict between the kingdom of Satan and the kingdom of the Messiah as the "ruler of this world" was cast out and all authority was given to Jesus— but that's a subject that we may be discussing later, how this became clearer to the apostles. (Cf Ephesians 6:12)

    It can also be established that there were food shortages in Judea in the years leading up to Jerusalem's destruction in 70CE: [Fn 2]

    Now in these days there came down prophets from Jerusalem unto Antioch. And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be a great famine over all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius. And the disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren that dwelt in Judea: which also they did, sending it to the elders by the hand of Barnabas and Saul. —Acts 11:27-30 American Standard Version

    Likewise, it can be established that there were "earthquakes in one place after another":

    [Wikipedia]

    [Source]

    An aside here: I find it noteworthy that Laodicea was a city so well-off financially that they themselves were able to afford to carry out rebuilding and repairing the damages caused by the earthquake which impacted their city, that in his Revelation given to John, Jesus denounces the apparent self-reliance and self-confidence the Laodicean believers had in their earthly riches. [Revelation 3:17-18]

    This nation rising against nation, kingdom against kingdom, and the food shortages and earthquakes, Jesus tells his inquisitive disciples, are the beginning of the "pangs of distress":

    All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress. —Matthew 24:8 NWT

    Referring once again to the original Greek word odin, the "pangs of distress" is in reference to the pains associated with childbirth— an experience no man will ever know or be able to empathize with, beyond knowing that it is a very painful experience for the woman giving birth. As a father who was present for every one of my children's birth, I speak from personal experience in this matter. I'll add that as painful as the birthing process looks from the man's perspective (and IS, from the woman's), when the child is born, there is no other experience to compare with it as one is filled with an overwhelming jubilation that exceeds the capacity of words to convey. It is nothing short of a glorious wonder! How much more so, what would come of the birth which was about to take place in the lifetime of these disciples!!!

    I'll return shortly, but need to take a break— been sitting here writing and looking up references since around 2am and my legs have fallen asleep, lol!

    [To be continued...]

    __________
    Footnotes

    [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_messiah_claimants / http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/12416-pseudo-messiahs / Josephus's writings

    [2]
    Several famines occurred during the reign of Claudius (cf. Dion Cassius, LX. 11, Tacitus, Annal. XII. 13, and Eusebius, Chron., year of Abr. 2070) in different parts of the empire, but no universal famine is recorded such as Eusebius speaks of. According to Josephus (Ant. XX. 2. 5 and 5. 2), a severe famine took place in Judea while Cuspius Fadus and Tiberius Alexander were successively procurators. Fadus was sent into Judea upon the death of Agrippa (44 a.d.), and Alexander was succeeded by Cumanus in 48 a.d. The exact date of Alexander's accession we do not know, but it took place probably about 45 or 46. This famine is without doubt the one referred to by Agabus in Acts 11:28. [Source]

    The only non-Christian historians, so far as we know, to record a famine during the reign of Claudius, are Dion Cassius and Tacitus, who mention a famine in Rome, and Josephus, who speaks of the famine in Judea (see the previous note for the references). [Source]
     
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    Timothy Kline New Member

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    [Continuing...]

    "At that time they will deliver you up to punishment and will put you to death; and you will be objects of hatred to all the nations because you are called by my name. Then WILL MANY STUMBLE AND FALL, and they will betray one another and hate one another. Many false prophets will rise up and lead multitudes astray; and because of the prevalent disregard of God's law the love of the great majority will grow cold; but those who stand firm to the End shall be saved." — Matthew 24:9-13 Weymouth New Testament

    Now, as I understand it presently, the aforementioned birth took place 40 years later, in 70CE. Interestingly, a human pregnancy lasts 40 weeks.

    This has noteworthy theological implications, I believe:

    The Jews wandered for 40 years in the desert, for their lack of faith— before becoming the earthly nation of Israel living under the covenant instituted through the Law of Moses. The faithless ones of that 40-year period would die before the arrival in the Promised Land, and Moses did not enter with them, either.

    The first century believers (Jew and Gentile alike) lived the next 40 years, their faith tested by the foretold tribulation— before becoming the spiritual Israel living under the new covenant with its Law of the Christ. The faithless generation identified by Jesus would perish, and Jesus did not enter into the spiritual Promised Land, having been put to death in the flesh to fulfill the Law and the Prophets— as previously referenced in scripture.

    Who are "they"? Primarily, I hold this to be the scribes and Pharisees since the inspired record shows that opposition to those following the Way came from the Pharisees (Saul counting himself foremost among the guilty from that quarter). While Romans did put first century believers to death, the scriptures make it clear that it was the Jews who delivered up those believers for punishment and impalement.

    Who are/were "all the nations" who would hate the first century believers because they were called by Jesus' name? I've seen persuasive arguments that these nations were those nations throughout the Roman empire (Samaria, Syria, etc) and equally persuasive arguments presented that these nations were the tribes (or nations) of Israel itself— the faithless Jews who would persecute first century believers and then themselves be destroyed in 70CE's cataclysmic events.

    Personally, I'm inclined to believe that the nations here are the 12 tribes of Israel, based on the following event recorded in the Acts of the Apostles:

    —Acts 28:16-28 Berean Study Bible

    Again, too, Jesus speaks to the matter of false prophets that would rise up and lead "multitudes" astray. External history attests to this, as mentioned earlier, as being the case in the time leading up to 70CE.

    Jesus then tells his disciples that "those who stand firm to the End shall be saved."

    The "end" here, as I touched on earlier, is the end of the Jewish system of things— the old covenant. And if the old covenant passed, then the new covenant has come out of that 40-year "pregnancy" which I understand to mean the transitional period (already-not-yet period) culminating in the events of 70CE.

    This brings the discussion to the matter of the extent to which the "Good News of the Kingdom" would reach before that ending of the Jewish system of things, for Jesus next tells his disciples:

    And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end [of the Jewish system of things; the aion of the Law of Moses; the Mosaic age] will come.— Matthew 24:14 NWT

    As we both know, the NWT's translation as "all the inhabited earth" is, in the original Greek, oikoumene.

    The futurist perspective insists this must refer to the global earthwide population of peoples— but this demands that we set aside audience relevance: what it would mean to the disciples to whom Jesus was speaking. Sure, we can say that the disciples had no idea just how far the gospel would reach down into our day, but we are arguing from the hindsight gained through the benefit of a fulfilled prophecy.

    Jesus explicitly makes it clear that the witnessing work, the proclamation of the good news of the kingdom spoken of here, precedes the end of the Jewish system of things, not the end of Time itself. We can establish the end of the Jewish system of things simply by determining if the Temple remains with us down to our day, and with it the daily sacrifice demanded in the Law of Moses. We can establish the end of the Jewish system of worship by whether we must approach Jehovah God after the manner that the Jews did, with that curtain keeping us separate from the Holy of Holies, into which only the high priest could enter once a year. We can establish the end of the Jewish system of things by whether we must offer a sin-sacrifice, be it a turtledove or a lamb.

    There are a number of other ways we can establish whether the end of the Jewish system of worship had come as Jesus foretold to his disciples.

    The good news of this was preached first to the Jews, and then taken to the Gentiles— as the above-cited passage from the Acts of the Apostles involving the apostle Paul testifies. Like their forefathers, the faithless Jews of Jesus' generation perished, never to enter the spiritual Land of Promise which was reached in 70CE, following the 40-year period of transition between covenants.

    This begs the question I myself demanded an answer for as I began re-examining my beliefs and expectations in light of a covenantal perspective: If this is true, then why are things the way they are today, in my lifetime? Where is this promised presence of Jesus, given the evidence I see around me with my eyes? Surely 2,000 years hence I wouldn't be witnessing the things I am here on the world scene. And I had a bunch of other questions, I admit.

    If time allows, and opportunity allows, as this discussion continues, I hope to address them.

    In any event, I'm going to pause here, and pick the discussion back up next time with the "disgusting thing that causes desolation," which FINALLY brings things to what you were asking much earlier.

    Again, my apologies for taking soooooo long to get back to this point, but I felt it important to cover the process I have been through in reaching my current understanding on this, the scriptural evidence I made use of, and some background along with it all. I didn't set out to drag this discussion out, please believe me on this! But, as you likely agree, it's alllllll connected and interwoven— and I thank you for providing an opportunity to discuss this on your forum, for it has also benefited me to try to step-by-step explain how it is that I have moved from a futurist paradigm and eschatology to a preterist paradigm and eschatology.

    The questions you've asked to this point are appropriate and very similar to those that I asked, and I fully intend to address each and every one as I am allowed— and to that end I have been collating your questions to include as we move through the material.

    Until tomorrow, then...

    A fellow believer,
    Timothy
     
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    Greetings brother,

    I'm not sure what you mean by ended. I am assuming you mean 'fulfilled.'

    As I've mentioned previously, I believe according to Dan 9:27 the Davidic covenant for the Messiah was fulfilled the moment Jesus was baptized. That covenant was extended to the Jews alone for seven years as Jesus said to go only to the house of Israel. That was the last 70th year of Daniel nine. I believe at the half of that week, the sacrifices and gift offerings ceased at the temple because they were no longer valid when our Lord was sacrificed. Ending that 70th week Cornelious was baptized, bringing in all nations under the new covenant set up by Christ at the last supper. At which point a Jew became one of the heart according to the Apostle Paul. This was in fulfillment of the sheet before Peter.

    Again, I'm not sure what you mean by pass away. If the Davidic covenant was fulfilled when Christ was baptized, I personally would say it was fulfilled. At that point, 70ce has nothing to do with the Davidic covenant. The Davidic covenant was fulfilled forty years before the fall of Jerusalem; was it not?

    As far as the kosmos; I'm not sure one can justify applying Jesus' words to a Jewish perspective. But I recognize that a preterist view would hold this while a futurist would say Rome would have had to have been included in Jesus' words.

    Can you share how the kosmos passed away when Jesus was baptized in fulfillment of the Davidic covenant?

    If you are saying the covenant was fulfilled in 70ce, can you share why you believe that?

    Thanks...

    The Immanuel prophecy of Isaiah 7:14 was a dual fulfillment.

    As well, I have to disagree with you here and say the days of Noah Jesus referred to was a dual prophecy. I believe that is why he brought it up. He was saying one could look at that event as that event would occur again (in like manner) just as it had then.

    As well, I have to disagree with you again and say that the Jewish revolt of 167-160bce is a clear fulfillment of Daniel's prophecies, as well as 70ce. But I'm still interesting in hearing how an Abomination was set up in the temple in 70ce. Thanks...

    If we were completely dogmatic here, Jesus never said the events he spoke of would be fulfilled in 70ce. A preterist view has to infer Jesus meant 70ce, so in my eyes, I see no difference in inferring 167-10bce as well. Could one debate a generation? Then we just get right back into the details of the prophecy that may or may not have been fulfilled in 70ce.

    Would you not admit that there is no way a preterist can prove each and every prophecy Jesus mentioned was fulfilled in 70ce?

    According to Scritpture, I see the end of the Jewish system the day Jesus was sacrificed, and then the moment Cornelious was baptized physical Israel had no further meaning. After that, Jesus was merely prophesying its destruction, for Jerusalem no longer served any purpose after the new covenant was extended to the Gentiles.

    In my opinion, of course...

    AJ :)
     
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    Timothy Kline New Member

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    Fulfilled and ended in the sense of full realization, rather than something I still await.

    We may be on the same page here, although I do want to make some distinctions from my current perspective:

    There is no question that Jesus was the instrument of the fulfillment of the Davidic covenant's promise, but I personally wouldn't go so far as to say that the Davidic covenant was fulfilled with Jesus' baptism any more than when the prophet Samuel anointed David— Saul was still king and would continue in his reign for some time after. Similarly, the "god of this world" continued to reign for some time following Jesus' baptism.

    The Davidic covenant did not achieve fulfillment until Jesus ascended to the throne, as Jesus attests when he commissioned his disciples in their apostleship to the tribes of Israel, as you mentioned.

    Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” —Matthew 28:18-20 Berean Study Bible

    The "end of the age" here is the end of the Mosaic age, or aion, as I was elaborating on in my previous post, which I perceive to have been consummated in the events of 70CE— with the forty years (generation) acting as a period of transition between the former heavens and earth and the new heavens and earth.

    I appreciated your thoughts and observations concerning the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy here, brother, as well as the detailing of the half-week. The first century epistles elaborate well on this almost-not-yet setting of the fulfillment of the Law and the Prophets, with the Temple sacrifices continuing up until the destruction of the Temple (notwithstanding the Caligula situation which arose some years earlier); from God's perspective, the daily sacrifice and all that went with it were no longer valid, as you mentioned, although the Jewish apostles, Paul included, continued to abide by them... and the Judaizers campaigned hard to impose the Jewish practices and sacrifices upon Gentiles as the Way was opened for the non-Jew.

    As I presently understand the Davidic covenant, it was the embodiment of the Messianic kingdom. Earlier, I mentioned how I see Jesus' baptism very similar to when the prophet Samuel anointed David while Saul was the king of Israel. David's kingdom did not begin that day, but it was confirmed that day— keeping in mind that Saul was the king the people of Israel chose for themselves, and David was the king that God chose to rule His people.

    In any case, whether one views the Davidic covenant as having fulfillment at the baptism of Jesus or with the passing of the former "heavens and earth" (kosmos) evidenced by the destruction of the Temple, the priesthood, the Jewish genealogies, and the daily sacrifice, one is recognizing that the promise given through the Davidic covenant happens through the Messianic kingdom, which is an everlasting kingdom. So, if we say that the David covenant has been fulfilled, we are saying that the Messianic kingdom is now ruling, for this was the assurance and promise Jehovah set before David in that covenant. If we say that we are awaiting the Messianic kingdom, then the Davidic covenant has yet to be fulfilled. They are not mutually exclusive.

    When your days come to the full, and you must lie down with your forefathers, then I shall certainly raise up your seed after you, which will come out of your inward parts; and I shall indeed firmly establish his kingdom. He is the one that will build a house for my name, and I shall certainly establish the throne of his kingdom firmly to time indefinite. I myself shall become his father, and he himself will become my son. When he does wrong, I will also reprove him with the rod of men and with the strokes of the sons of Adam. As for my loving-kindness, it will not depart from him the way I removed it from Saul, whom I removed on account of you. And your house and your kingdom will certainly be steadfast to time indefinite before you; your very throne will become one firmly established to time indefinite."'" —2 Samuel 7:12-16 NWT

    This falls into the almost-but-not-yet of things which were to come to pass, but I do need to clarify myself on this as well as follow up on what you wrote after this. I hope it's okay that I pause here, though, and, God willing, I should be able to return tomorrow morning and flesh things out a bit more.

    Have a blessed evening!

    —Timothy
     
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    Timothy Kline New Member

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    {Dreadfully abridged so that I can get SOMEthing posted in response. Been pecking away on this for a week now and there is so much ground to cover, lol, that I needed to just curtail my post and give a bite-sized response to keep the discussion moving.}

    Fulfilled in relation to the Messianic prophecies. Fulfilled in relation to the final judgment of Israel, just as God revealed to Moses, and Moses prophesied under that inspiration:

    And the LORD said to Moses, "Behold, the days approach when you must die. Call Joshua and present yourselves in the tent of meeting, that I may commission him." And Moses and Joshua went and presented themselves in the tent of meeting. And the LORD appeared in the tent in a pillar of cloud. And the pillar of cloud stood over the entrance of the tent.

    And the LORD said to Moses, "Behold, you are about to lie down with your fathers. Then this people will rise and whore after the foreign gods among them in the land that they are entering, and they will forsake me and break my covenant that I have made with them. Then my anger will be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them and hide my face from them, and they will be devoured. And many evils and troubles will come upon them, so that they will say in that day, 'Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?' And I will surely hide my face in that day because of all the evil that they have done, because they have turned to other gods.

    "Now therefore write this song and teach it to the people of Israel. Put it in their mouths, that this song may be a witness for me against the people of Israel. For when I have brought them into the land flowing with milk and honey, which I swore to give to their fathers, and they have eaten and are full and grown fat, they will turn to other gods and serve them, and despise me and break my covenant. And when many evils and troubles have come upon them, this song shall confront them as a witness (for it will live unforgotten in the mouths of their offspring). For I know what they are inclined to do even today, before I have brought them into the land that I swore to give."

    So Moses wrote this song the same day and taught it to the people of Israel.
    —Deuteronomy 31:14-22 English Standard Version

    Like the unfaithful wife she was, the harlot Israel was on a collision course with her owner and husband, Jehovah God. The events in that first century resulted in the destruction of Israel's idol (Jerusalem), the Temple with its priesthood, accentuated with the loss of the genealogical records that established the priesthood for Israel. Gone, all of it, and today something else sits atop it— and God made it happen. The divorce was final, the covenant was broken by the unfaithful wife, Israel, and she was burned up in 70CE. Destroyed, just as John of Patmos was told to write by Jesus. Even Jesus established the last days of Israel when he said, "Your house is abandoned to you."

    Peter's declaring the fulfillment of Joel's prophecy is an excellent example of establishing this:

    But this is that having been spoken by the prophet Joel: ‘And it will be in the last days, God says, I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters will prophesy, and your young men will see visions, and your elders will dream dreams. And even upon My servants, and upon My handmaidens, I will pour out of My Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy. And I will show wonders in the heaven above, and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and vapor of smoke. The sun will be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and glorious day of the Lord coming. And it shall be that everyone who shall call upon the name of the Lord will be saved.’ —Acts 2:16-21 Berean Literal Bible (BLB)

    All that remained at that point was for God's people to fill the cup the rest of the way, as they castigated and killed followers of Jesus trying to warn them of what's to come due. And this they— including Saul, before he became known as Paul, the last apostle of Jesus Christ, [and the only one who went to the Gentiles— the Twelve (Matthias being the replacement of Judas by the casting of lots) were sent to the 12 tribes of Israel, specifically, while accepting non-Jews who responded to the good news from among the nations—Gentile believers] did to fill up the full measure of their forefathers:

    [Y]ou {scribes and Pharisees} say, ‘If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.’ Thus you bear witness to yourselves that you are sons of those having murdered the prophets. You, then, fill up the measure of your fathers. Serpents! Offspring of vipers! How shall you escape from the sentence of Gehenna? Because of this, behold, I send to you prophets and wise men and scribes. Some of them you will kill and will crucify, and some of them you will flog in your synagogues, and will persecute from town to town; so that upon you shall come all the righteous blood being poured out upon the earth, from the blood of the righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. —Matthew 23:30-36 BLB

    I mean, are we to expect that the Temple on the Mount will be replaced at some point with a rebuilt Temple for the Jews and the restoration of Jerusalem and Judaism as it was before Jesus lay down his life? Because in the past infidelities of God's people, He restored them after so many times they fell into idolatry before. When they went into captivity in Babylon, of course, although even when they were released not all returned to Jerusalem, choosing to live in the Diaspora instead, keeping to the pilgrimage festivals which took place three times a year. [Synagogues became a stand-in for the Temple, as I recall, and is where they would gather to worship and recite the Torah.]

    Scripturally, I do not expect the Temple to be rebuilt, the Daily Sacrifice to resume, or people to literally travel to a rebuilt Jerusalem. That age has ended, just as Jehovah foretold through the prophets.

    I do not see how we can omit non-Messianic prophecies from their first-century fulfillment, as they are the flip-side of the coin, so to speak, or say yes, they were kinda sorta fulfilled back then, but we must expect an even greater fulfillment in our day because it would mean that we continue to live in the Mosaic Age, which means that we live under the Law of Moses as well, since the Law of Moses remains in place until all is fulfilled or accomplished.

    I, for one, do not believe I am under [Mosaic] Law, but under grace— or undeserved kindness. I am under the Law of the Christ. I do not engage in animal sacrifices of propitiation for my trespasses.

    There can be no separation of this (the Mosaic Law) from the prophets which foretold God's destruction of Jerusalem and her inhabitants, since the Mosaic Age was coming to its end, having served its purpose: produce the Messiah and with him usher in the Messianic Age, in which we now live and which will never end— although some Christians instead declare that we are living in a "gospel age" which they preach has an end somewhere down the road from where we stand now in the Stream of Time.

    Again, the fulfillment of the Prophets and their prophecies in both the appearance and victory of the long-awaited Messiah and the destruction of unfaithful Jerusalem and Jews, both taking place in the first century, is attested by Jesus and the apostles and the Revelation of Jesus Christ which he gave to John of Patmos to record.

    If a believer holds that we are still awaiting some or all or most prophecies to yet be fulfilled, then we continue to live under the Law of Moses and Jesus was mistaken, along with his apostles, and the first-century believers for having believed them:

    For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth shall pass away, not even one iota, nor one stroke of a letter, shall pass away from the law, until everything should happen. —Matthew 5:18 BLB

    Submitted for perusal and consideration,
    Timothy
     
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    What about Peter and his keys? ;)

    What if Jesus fulfilled the Davidic covenant at his baptism? Wouldn't law and prophets contending with the Meshiach be fulfilled at that moment?

    "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." Mth 15:17

    As well: What if someone believes "heavens and earth" have not passed away yet? What if they don't see a new heaven and new earth yet?

    Along the same line of questioning you posed: Was prophecy mistaken when it said the lion would lay with the lamb and a child as a master over them all, and the righteous inheriting the land, and the world renewed? These matters are a sticky point for a Preterism view...

    I believe humanity needs something to look forward to. Is that not the very nature of a promise? In my eyes, if all things have already been fulfilled, there is no more promise. That makes no sense.

    I'm not seeing the connection between Jesus fulfilling the Meshiach prophecies pertaining to him and the idea that every prophecy must be already fulfilled because he fulfilled those in him.

    All love...

    AJ
     
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    Timothy Kline New Member

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    Good evening, brother,

    You asked:
    This one sorta deserves its moment, so can we bookmark that one? Or spin it off into its own topic, if you'd like, as the authority Jesus gave to his disciples is their appointment as apostles to the Jews, especially the scribes and Pharisees born out of the Maccabean rebellion that led to the recapturing of Jerusalem, if memory serves. The "inter-Testamental period," I've seen it referred to as, historically.

    I'm sure we'll get back to it in due course, either way, brother.

    I want to make sure, too, that we're looking at the same passage, so you're referring to Matthew 16:19, right?

    You asked:
    I would need to look at the scriptures you feel establish the fulfillment of the Davidic covenant by Jesus at his baptism. Did you mention them up above in an earlier post? If not, go ahead and give me some references to consider.

    The Davidic covenant, as I presently understand it, involves the following passage:

    "When your days are fulfilled and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, who shall come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son. When he commits iniquity, I will discipline him with the rod of men, with the stripes of the sons of men, but my steadfast love will not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away from before you. And your house and your kingdom shall be made sure forever before me. Your throne shall be established forever.' " —2 Samuel 7:12-16 English Standard Version (ESV)

    Again, add any additional passages that speak to the Davidic covenant so we're on the same page, so to speak, so we can establish the framework of this aspect of our discussion.

    If you mean at the moment of his baptism, I don't believe so.

    For example, in the above-cited promise of Jehovah to David, the "offspring" Jehovah says will come from the Davidic lineage would "build a house" for Jehovah's name, which calls to mind something Jesus tells his disciples:

    In the house of my Father there are many abodes. Otherwise, I would have told YOU, because I am going my way to prepare a place for YOU. Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for YOU, I am coming again and will receive YOU home to myself, that where I am YOU also may be. —John 14:2-3 New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures (NWT)

    One thing seems reasonably certain: Jesus did not fulfill the aspect of the Davidic promise (covenant) regarding the building of a "house" for Jehovah upon his baptism.

    The outpouring of holy spirit at Pentecost provides further evidence of the building work Jesus, in fulfillment of the Davidic promise/covenant, was to carry out as believers became living temples in which God's holy spirit would dwell, not man-made temple "made with hands" as then stood in Jerusalem. The pillars of this heavenly temple were the apostles, according to scripture, and Jesus himself became the cornerstone (which implies other stones to follow in this heavenly building project).

    There would be no end to the rule of this descendant of David— an everlasting kingdom. If Jesus began ruling upon his baptism (if he fulfilled the Messianic prophecies upon baptism, that is), then surely that rule—at a minimum— was paused upon his death, which lasted 3 days, and thus invalidated the "forever" portion of the promise Jehovah made to David concerning his lineage and the kingdom. I believe the scriptures are clear that once Jesus begins ruling, there is no end to that rule, nor pauses nor intermissions. The when of the start of his rule seems to be at the time Jesus could tell his disciples:

    Jesus spoke to them, saying, “All authority in heaven and on the earth has been given to Me. Therefore having gone, disciple all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things, whatever I commanded you. And behold, I am with you all the days, until the completion of the age.” —Matthew 28:18-20 Berean Literal Bible (BLB)

    As far as I am presently aware, Jesus is never reported as saying anything about having been given "all authority" in heaven and on the earth prior to this commissioning of his disciples as apostles to all the 12 nations, although he here is reiterating his command given earlier in his earthly ministry:

    These twelve Jesus sent forth, giving them these orders: "Do not go off into the road of the nations, and do not enter into a Sa·mar'i·tan city; but, instead, go continually to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. As YOU go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of the heavens has drawn near.' ... Wherever anyone does not take YOU in or listen to YOUR words, on going out of that house or that city shake the dust off YOUR feet. Truly I say to YOU, It will be more endurable for the land of Sod'om and Go·mor'rah on Judgment Day than for that city.

    "Look! I am sending YOU forth as sheep amidst wolves; therefore prove yourselves cautious as serpents and yet innocent as doves. Be on YOUR guard against men; for they will deliver YOU up to local courts, and they will scourge YOU in their synagogues. Why, YOU will be haled before governors and kings for my sake, for a witness to them and the nations. However, when they deliver YOU up, do not become anxious about how or what YOU are to speak; for what YOU are to speak will be given YOU in that hour; for the ones speaking are not just YOU, but it is the spirit of YOUR Father that speaks by YOU.

    Further, brother will deliver up brother to death, and a father his child, and children will rise up against parents and will have them put to death. And YOU will be objects of hatred by all people on account of my name; but he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved. When they persecute YOU in one city, flee to another; for truly I say to YOU, YOU will by no means complete the circuit of the cities of Israel until the Son of man arrives.
    —Matthew 10:5-7, 14-23 NWT​

    The imminency of his coming (in judgment of the house of God, as Peter wrote) is captured in the promise that the apostles "will by no means complete the circuit of the cities of Israel until the Son of man arrives," and that they were to preach to the 12 nations of Israel is likewise verifiable with the two passages cited above.

    Unfortunately, Christendom has exchanged Jesus' own words with others, asserting that Jesus gave it a planet-wide commission and that only then will the "end" come and Jesus come back. I count myself among those who believed this and argued as much in years past, not allowing Jesus to speak for himself— comforted in the delusion that engaging in "what Jesus really meant was..." thinking is an appropriate theology for a believer.

    Submitted for perusal and consideration,
    Timothy
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Greetings brother,

    Ultimately I was talking about Peter going to the Centurian. You had said Paul was the only one that went to the Gentiles.

    Daniel 9:27

    Was the covenant to David for a house, or for a king from his lineage?

    Couldn't ruling forever be rhetorical? Meaning he would rule forever, and not meaning he wouldn't die first? The statement still stands as accurate when understanding he will rule forever even though he died after beginning that rule. By reason of his resurrection, that prophecy is fulfilled.

    "Of the greatness of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this" (Ish 9:7).

    Besides, in the Preterism understanding, wouldn't that mean there must be peace in Jesus' kingdom? Where's the peace? How is Jesus ruling without peace in the kingdom?

    I think it's pretty clear the angels worshipped Jesus while he was alive on Earth. That is a clear sign of ruling to me. You haven't quite satisfied that paradox in your understanding to me yet. How were the angels able to worship Jesus without committing idolatry? But this goes back into when Jesus begins ruling that we separated out into another thread.

    Have a great day brother...
     
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    Timothy Kline

    Timothy Kline New Member

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    I should have been more clear, sorry about that.

    Paul was the only apostle to have a ministry to the Gentiles. As you pointed out, the apostle Peter was told to go to the house of Cornelius, where he would, ultimately, baptize the Centurion's household of people. I don't see scriptural support for concluding that this occasion changed the ministry Jesus assigned them. In fact, Peter was still struggling with his being in the company of Gentiles some years later, and the apostle Paul called him out on the matter, as you may recall, and as gathered from the following scriptural passages:

    For you have heard of my former way of life in Judaism, that beyond exceeding measure I was persecuting the church of God and was destroying it. And I was advancing in Judaism beyond many contemporaries among my people, being more abundantly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

    But when God, the One having selected me from my mother’s womb and having called me by His grace, was pleased to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I consulted not immediately with flesh and blood, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to the apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia and returned again to Damascus.

    Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to make acquaintance with Cephas, and I remained with him fifteen days. But I saw none of the other apostles, only James, the Lord’s brother. Now in what I write to you, behold, before God, I do not lie.

    Then I went into the regions of Syria and Cilicia. And I was by face unknown to the churches of Judea that are in Christ. But they were only hearing that “the one formerly persecuting us now is preaching the faith which once he was destroying.” And they were glorifying God in me.
    —Galatians 1:13-24 Berean Literal Bible (BLB)


    But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face because he stood condemned. For before certain ones came from James, he had been eating with the Gentiles. But when they came, he was drawing back and was separating himself, being afraid of those of the circumcision. And also the rest of the Jews acted hypocritically with him, so that, by their hypocrisy, even Barnabas was carried away.

    But when I saw that they are not walking in line according to the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before all, “If you being a Jew live like a Gentile, and not like a Jew, why do you compel the Gentiles to Judaize? We Jews by birth and not ‘sinners’ of the Gentiles, nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by works of law, except through faith from Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith from Christ, and not by works of the Law, because by works of the Law not any flesh will be justified.
    ..For if righteousness is through the Law, then Christ died for naught.”—Galatians 2:11-16, 21b BLB

    Chronologically, this took place after Peter's vision of the sheet, wherein he was told "What God has made clean, do not call common" and the men sent by Cornelius arrived at the apostle's house.

    In Paul's account, he first met the apostle Peter when Paul went up to Jerusalem, three years after spreading the good news among Gentiles following the Jews' refusal to listen to his message in Judea. This suggests that Peter remained primarily at Jerusalem, but anything more probably ventures into speculation.

    What does seem to be certain is that even years after having the vision of the sheet with animals and being told not to call common what God had made clean, Peter struggled with this as late as the day when he got called out by Paul for hypocrisy.

    In any case, the apostle Paul is the only apostle whose ministry became specifically to the Gentile believers living in the last days of the Mosaic Covenant age:

    And after these things, having departed from Athens, he {Paul} came to Corinth. And having found a certain Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, and Priscilla his wife, recently having come from Italy because of Claudius having commanded all the Jews to depart out of Rome, he came to them, and because of being of the same trade, he stayed with them and worked. For they were tentmakers by the trade.

    And he was reasoning in the synagogue on every Sabbath, persuading both Jews and Greeks. Now when both Silas and Timothy came down from Macedonia, Paul was occupied with the word, earnestly testifying to the Jews Jesus to be the Christ. But of them opposing and reviling him, having shaken out the garments, he said to them, “Your blood be upon your head; I am clean. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.”

    And having departed from there, he came to the house of a certain one named Titius Justus, worshiping God, whose house was adjoining the synagogue. And Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed in the Lord, with his all household. And many of the Corinthians hearing believed and were baptized.

    Now the Lord said to Paul through a vision in the night, “Do not fear, but continue speaking, and do not be silent, because I am with you, and no one will lay a hand on you to harm you, because there are many people to me in this city.” And he remained a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.
    —Acts 18:1-11 BLB

    The apostle Paul's ministerial travels across the Roman Empire's reach are a matter of historical record, whereas that of the other 12 apostles takes place from Jerusalem to surrounding synagogues in Judea, which is in keeping with their being sent, by Jesus, to the lost sheep of Israel, a task, he made clear, they would not complete before the coming of the Son of Man yet were they to be diligent in the time given.

    This is not to say that the 12 apostles didn't have interactions with Gentiles (or, Greeks, as some Bible translations render the title), they did. But the focus of their ministry was not primarily to the Gentiles, as the apostle Paul's became— insofar as I can presently establish scripturally.

    Submitted for perusal and consideration,
    Timothy
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Greetings brother,

    In my understanding, this event with Peter was a major milestone in the ministry Christ gave his disciples. I believe this event was the end of the 70th week of Daniel 9 and the moment the covenant for a kingdom made by our Lord at the last supper was extended to all people, not just the Jewish nation. It is my belief this event fulfilled a significant prophecy. Hence the vision to Peter...

    I understand that Peter held the keys of the kingdom that brought the Gentiles into that new covenant, and that was fulfilled in Cornelious's family. Then that completed the 70th week of Dan 9:27. That prophecy in Daniel 9 (to me) is the very anchor that binds all prophetic fullment.

    All love...
     
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    Timothy Kline

    Timothy Kline New Member

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    Certainly! And was a massive social challenge for the first-century Jewish Christians, I can imagine! From the day the nation of Israel entered into its covenant with Jehovah until the arrival of Jesus in the first century, It was an exclusive covenant, and the rest of Mankind outside of that part of the world in the first century came under the moniker of Gentiles (or, Greeks by the first century), referring to anyone not of Jewish birth. The rest of the world, as far as I can determine, came under the sovereignty of various angels if Daniel's writings bear any authority on this, as does some other Bible passages.

    So, the bringing in of Gentiles demanded a massive paradigm shift for Jewish Christians. Separation from Gentiles was in their blood by this point, and they ethnically looked at non-Jews far beneath the Jew. Jehovah was carrying out what we now read at John 15:1-17 and Romans 11:17-32 and, as believers, we are grafted in among, as well, I believe.

    So yes, a major milestone— without question!


    I've read numerous takes on Daniel 9 over the years, and most of them are persuasive to me from their perspectives. I'm with you in that the 70th week was fulfilled in the first century rather than waiting to be fulfilled in some future sense.

    Where we seem to stand apart is which event marked the end of the 70th week. You believe the 70th week ended when the new covenant was open to non-Jews (Gentiles), whereas I believe the end of the 70th week is when Jerusalem and the Temple and the Priesthood were destroyed in 70CE, when I consider passages like:

    And when you see Jerusalem being encircled by encampments, then know that her desolation has drawn near. Then those in Judea, let them flee to the mountains; and those in her midst, let them depart out; and those in the countries, let them not enter into her. For these are the days of avenging, to fulfill all things having been written. — Luke 21:20-22 Berean Literal Bible (BLB)

    Jesus is here reciting what Daniel recorded:

    "Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place." —Daniel 9:24 English Standard Version (ESV)

    And the prophet Hosea:

    The time of Israel’s punishment has come; the day of payment is here. Soon Israel will know this all too well. Because of your great sin and hostility, you say, “The prophets are crazy and the inspired men are fools!” — Hosea 9:7 New Living Translation (NLT)

    Prime example: Jesus:

    But I am going on my way today and tomorrow and the next day. After all, Jerusalem is the place where prophets are killed. Jerusalem, Jerusalem! Your people have killed the prophets and have stoned the messengers who were sent to you. I have often wanted to gather your people, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings. But you wouldn't let me. Now your temple will be deserted. —Luke 13:33-35 Contemporary English Version (CEV)

    And I can provide similar instances where there remained unfinished business between Jehovah God and the Jewish nation, starting with Jerusalem and the Temple, the destruction of which was for the fulfillment of all things which had been written [the prophets], placing this, too, within the 70th week fulfillment, as well.

    We may be seeing two sides of the same coin here.

    Brother, why don't you walk me scripturally through what you're thinking here as far as the 70th week ending with the grafting in of Gentiles.

    Thank you, in advance!

    A fellow believer,
    Timothy
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Curious, brother, can you share with me when you believe the 70th week of Daniel 9 began?

    Thanks...

    AJ
     

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