Rev. 13:17 and Covid

Discussion in 'Bible Prophecy' started by RR144, Sep 12, 2021.

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    RR144

    RR144 New Member

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    I have always associated the Mark of the Beast with Papacy, (I know some will disagree) but I couldn't help but
    but notice Revelation 13:17, which reads ....

    "so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark--the name of the beast or the number of its name. so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name."

    You think maybe the "mark": is the vaccine? Think about it, in the last year we have seen the cooperation of all governments of the world pushing this vaccine and now threatening that if you don't take it, measures will be put in place to prevent you from earning a paycheck, in others words, you won't be able to "buy and sell". What do you think?

    RR
     
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    Baruq

    Baruq Member

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    The mark is on the forehead or the hand, which is not the case with the vaccine. That's why I have doubts. But it is true that this situation is disturbing.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Keep in mind brother that Jesus says to buy from Him in Rev 3: "I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich, and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness, and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see." Rev 3:18

    So if we allow the descriptive narrative to define itself, then the buying and selling are spiritual, which makes sense since the mark of the beast 666 is connected to Solomon's apostasy, the apostasy in Daniel three that measures 60x6x6, and the calf set up in the wilderness with two horns made of gold in Exodus that represented apostasy. It seems likely the mark of the beast is the apostasy discussed in 2 Thessalonians.
     
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    RR144

    RR144 New Member

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    Yes it does, but it could be symbolic.

    RR
     
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    RR144

    RR144 New Member

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    No offense Josh, but you can't just mix and match verses to fit a narrative. I was just throwing this out there. Thought it was interesting that they want to enforce a "mark" (in this case, the shoulder) in order for people to buy and sell, if not, you can't.

    I agree that the buying and selling is spiritual, and would sday that the biggest apostasy is the Papacy along with her daughters (Rev. 17:1-6)

    RR
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Please, define what you mean by me mixing scriptures to fit a narrative. Does not Rev 13 say "buying and sell" and Christ Jesus talks about "buying from HIm" in Rev 3? If I were to say both uses of buying mean the same, does that mean I'm mixing scriptures to fit a certain narrative? Do we not do the same thing with the beast, or the women, the lamb, or Babylon throughout the Revelation? Do you say the mark of the beast in Rev 13 is the same mark in Rev 19? Why? Maybe because both places discuss it? Hmmm

    Could you tell me how combining buying in Rev 3 with buying in Rev 13 fits a personal narrative other than letting scripture explain itself?

    After all, I'd hate to think the covid shot being the mark of the beast was personal interpretation mixing scriptures to one's own narrative. No offense.

    Curious, then you should be able to tell me who the MOL is. 2Th 2 says the MOL would be revealed after the apostasy came. So?

    As well, it's my understanding that the apostasy comes from true believers and individuals. Individuals receive the mark, do they not? How are "all those who receive the mark" an organization? (A nation nonetheless, which the Holy See is.)

    In order for the Papacy to have fallen into apostasy, they would have had to at one time been faithful, so when do you place that time at? When did they become apostate?

    Thanks.
     
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    PaulAche

    PaulAche New Member

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    I’m new here…yep playing that card ha. Don’t want to step on any toes, but at the same time for a sharpening of sorts, I have to comment on some things here.

    First…why do you associate the mark of the beast with the Papacy? The Papacy only controls certain corners of the world. Muslim has more people. Buddhism, Islam, Hindu, etc have been around for much longer. The mark of the beast is a world wide kinda thing, so the Papacy is going to have to convert a lot of people if what you believe is true. How do you propose this will happen?

    Also, the Mark Of The Beast doesnt present itself until AFTER the eighth king of Revelation manifests himself and takes control of the world. Then the image of the beast is the one who forces the world to take the MOTB. This has not happened yet, so the vaccine cannot be the MOTB. Not to say that it isn’t a trial run for when it comes, but this cannot be it.

    There is no question that Rev 3:18 is symbolic, for who can truly buy gold from Jesus, or white clothes for that matter in a physical sense? Obviously Jesus is speaking of following him, and putting faith in his words and deeds.

    However, when John tells us about the beast he says that “it puts under compulsion all people—the small and the great, the rich and the poor, the free and the slaves—that these should be marked on their right hand or on their forehead, 17 and that nobody can buy or sell except a person having the mark, the name of the wild beast or the number of its name. 18 This is where it calls for wisdom: Let the one who has insight calculate the number of the wild beast, for it is a man’s number, and its number is 666.”

    This is obviously meant to be a physical mark. Without it we cannot buy or sell. What are we buying or selling? Are these meant to be spiritual things just as buying gold from Jesus was? Perhaps, but the scriptures give us another clue to provide us with more evidence that it is physical. John says “this is where it calls for wisdom” and then says that the number of the wild beast…is a mans number. Mankind represents the physical creation of God, therefore this mark must be physical, and something we can see in the real world. Why else would John say it is a mans number except to confer to us that it is physical in nature?

    Just as the three Hebrews were ordered to bow down to a large physical statue measuring 60x6x6, the MOTB will be something we can see. It will be obvious to those who truly worship the true God, Jehovah. To everybody else it will simply be survival because they do not know our King Jesus Christ, or his Father Jehovah. The beast will compel them to take the mark because otherwise they will die, just like the three Hebrews through they would.

    Joshuastone, I don’t think RR meant any ill will toward your comment. You expressed a narrative that suggested the same words meant the same throughout the book of Revelation. However the scriptures are not written in such a way to interpret the same word to mean the same thing throughout. If this were true the word “Israel” would only mean Jacob throughout the entire bible. I know you know this I have been reading this website for some time.

    To encourage one another is the point of this site, correct? Lets do so with all humility and soundness of mind. Looking forward to more discussion.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2021
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Greetings friend,

    Have you considered that the beast coming from the earth and the abyss are not the same events? The beast may come from the earth, the mark comes about, and then the beast goes into and out of the abyss. A death-wound on one head does not need to represent the entire beast going into the abyss. Rev 13 says that beast comes from the earth with that headwound to one of its heads after all.

    Have you considered this mark of a "man" was Solomon and his apostasy not to gather more than God commanded?

    "The weight of the gold that Solomon received yearly was 666 talents," 1Ki 10:14.

    As you mentioned, 666 is also found alongside the subject of apostasy in Daniel 3 as well. We know the apostasy comes first from 2Th 2, the MOL is revealed, that MOL is the beast in Rev 13.

    The merchants in Rev 18 are part of this buying and selling as well:

    "The merchants who sold these things and gained their wealth from her will stand far off, terrified at her torment. They will weep and mourn and cry out:

    “‘Woe! Woe to you, great city, dressed in fine linen, purple and scarlet, and glittering with gold, precious stones, and pearls! In one hour such great wealth has been brought to ruin!’ “Every sea captain, and all who travel by ship, the sailors, and all who earn their living from the sea, will stand far off." Rev 18:15-17

    The merchants buy and sell from BTG. If we are to buy from our Lord rather than from these merchants, then the merchants are pastors and preachers of BTG, and that harlot is a religious organization.

    The mark must then represent our sacrifice of praise (Heb 13:14-16) and our right to freedom of religion. Where the mark represents Solomon's apostasy, apostasy in Dan 3, and a two-horned calf set up in the wilderness, an image representing apostasy in Exodus, so also does that image set up in Rev 13 represent apostasy from God.

    Brother, had the name Israel only applied to Jacob throughout Scripture, then it can only apply to him, and one couldn't apply it any other way. However, we know God describes all his people as Israel; therefore, the Torah explains itself. Therefore, if one says Israel only represents Jacob (as you say), you are applying a personal interpretation.

    In Rev 11, John clearly connects his words to Zech 4 with the olive trees standing alongside the Lord of the whole earth. This is a clear connection God's Word makes in order to explain the text in question. This is how God's Word explains itself. God's Word does the same thing with the word "Isreal."

    If Revelation discusses buying and selling in three different places and we don't examine them all together, we are applying personal interpretation. If Jesus says to buy from him in His Revelation, and the beast gives a mark to buy and sell in that same Revelation, clearly, these two are connected. To say they are not is going beyond God's Word because you cannot say they are not connected. To say they are not connected is a personal interpretation and not allowing the Bible to explain itself.

    Then you throw in the merchants who buy and sell from BTG in Rev 18 and all the connections of the 666 throughout scripture and their ties to apostasy, and you see this is precisely how the Bible explains itself. The mark of the beast is our freedom of religion. Obviously, the merchants in Rev 18 continue preaching/buying and selling because they take the mark of the beast to continue buying and selling for BTG.

    Look, I know I get worked up a little bit when someone says I'm mixing scripture for a personal narrative, but in reality, we don't all have to agree, and we won't. Our faith is the only salvational subject, and that is why we are all here in love. We can simply agree to disagree, but I do take offense when someone says I'm twisting things to explain a personal narrative. I recognize this as a personal failing, and I would have to ask forgiveness for my reaction; however, I have a long history in the subject of confirmation bias and how it applies to my personal and spiritual life. Regardless of whether anyone else understands, I approach scripture to explain itself without any concern for anyone's personal interpretation, including my own. I approach people the same way. When someone speaks to you, do you apply your own understanding to what they mean? Do you allow what you think they mean to affect your interaction with them, or do you allow them to explain themselves and accept what they say they mean?

    As I said, I have a lifelong history studying confirmation bias. Since I was a child, I have had a deep relationship with this subject, and it is very personal. If someone says something to you (including the Bible), you cannot apply your own understandings of what you think they mean by what they say; only they can explain to you their meaning, and you have to accept that. People think they can take others' words however they want and that how they feel about someone else's words is just as valid as the one who spoke. No, this kind of interpretation is from the devil, the liar. People think they have the right to apply others' words however they wish, based on how they made them feel. This is one of the biggest failings in human imperfection. Only the one who spoke has the right to explain what they meant by what they said, and the other must accept that. Tell me you don't experience this every single day..........

    There is no ill will toward anyone here, but let me reiterate that I am well-versed in confirmation and myside bias, and my angst is against that failing human imperfection rather than any individual. The goal in any communication, including the Bible, is to allow it to explain itself, period.

    All love...

    Joshua
     
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    RR144

    RR144 New Member

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    Sorry for the delay everyone. As I may have stated in the past. I work for the Postal; Service, currently working 6 days a week, with a 12 hour day, sometimes more. I get home, make dinner and I'm usually in bed. My brain isn't always working when I need it to. Just wanted to give you a heads up, didn't want you to think I was avoiding your questions. Thanks for understanding.

    RR
     
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    RR144 New Member

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    2 Thess. 2:3 reads "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition."

    Most theologians teach that the “man of sin” is a literal being, as some wicked person, but it's the false religious system, just as the “man of God” is the true Church, a collective body made up of component parts or “joints.” The ideal is the picture of Jesus as the head and the Church as the body parts. Similarly, the man of sin is an organization with a person (the pope) as the head and the corresponding component parts of the Antichrist system (the Papacy) as the body. The man of God is The Christ, The Elijah, with Jesus as head. The man of sin is the Antichrist, the Papacy, a religious system, with Satan as its head. As the head of the man-of-sin system, Satan works through the Papacy, whereas Jesus, the head of the man of God, works through the ecclesia.

    Paul received much information through visions. Although he wasn't allowed to reveal in detail what he saw, he was probably given certain parameters of liberty within which he could inform the brethren. With all the knowledge Paul was given, he would have carefully, through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, selected the words he used when writing his epistles. Every single word is meaningful. Even a seemingly simple adjective can be extremely revealing. The point is that Paul was well informed about the length of the time period before Jesus’ invisible return—it wasn't short, and the man-of-sin system had to first grow and develop and be recognized. General recognition of the man of sin did not occur until Martin Luther’s day in the 1500s and the Protestant Reformation. Tyndale in England was just as clear on the subject as Luther.

    “Let no man deceive you by any means [the means listed in verse 2: spirit, word, or letter]: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed.” Even if a spirit being should come visibly, they were not to believe it was Jesus, for the day of Christ’s presence would not come until, first, a falling away from the faith occurred and the man of sin was revealed. Although Paul could not give details, his mention of the apostasy was a hint of what had to take place; namely, the man of sin had to come and be
    revealed before Jesus could invisibly return. A great deception would precede even the beginning of the day of Christ.

    The “man of sin” is called the “son of perdition” because the system is going into everlasting destruction, never to rise again. Stated another way, under the symbol of the beast, the system will be cast alive into the lake of fire and brimstone (Rev. 19:20). The
    deception at the end of the Millennium will not be along religious lines. The natural mind thinks of the man of sin as a literal individual, a literal man—something like Judas, who was also called the “son of perdition” (John 17:12). The word “perdition” simply means everlastingly lost.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Greetings brother,

    Tell me: How do you consolidate the fact that antichrist is someone who denies Jesus came in the flesh? Does not the Catholic church believe Jesus did indeed come in the flesh? The very definition of Transubstantiation carries the idea of Jesus' flesh.

    "This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world." 1Jhn 4:2,3

    Thanks...

    Joshua
     

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