Okay well, I think I've come up with an idea that may have no way of disproving. Just like it seems the death stroke must be Babylon, (because it's the only one of the previous 7 mentioned by name alive in the time of the end after we know it was destroyed) so is this next thought I am about to present to you infallible? The beast in Rev 13 is from the sea; Rev 13:1 "And I saw a wild beast ascending out of the sea," This is obviously the same sea that is mentioned in Dan 7; Dan 7:3 "And four huge beasts came out of the sea, each different from the others." After all, the same beasts are mentioned in both chapters. But the difference between the two chapters is that in Rev 13 these beasts are shown as a combined beast, while in Dan 7 they are separate nations. So what is the logical conclusion? That this beast from the sea must include all of the locations of those original nations. Could we not say? Seems pretty simple actually, let's take a look; Leopard/Greece Bear/Medo-Persia Fierce/Rome Lion/Babylon/Rome Holy See This one does rely on the understanding that Babylon's death stroke was healed 2520 years (or 7 times) after the language at the tower of Babel was confused, and that would make the location of the newly healed death stroke of Babylon at Vatican city/Holy See/Rome. See that explanation HERE. Now what entity today covers all of these previous nations locations specifically? Well here it is; European Union!
The drawing of the tower...we have no idea what it looked like? We can't say a present day building looks like the tower? It would be saying what Moses voice sounded like. The picture of the Rome at its height...It took only 60 years to fall from its height to being a dead duck...Any nation can fall that fast from world power to nothing. It is a reminder how soon this system can end.
The original structure was a ziggurat, a step pyramid, nothing resembling the art in the 1563 painting by Bruegel. The ziggurat is what influenced other pyramids around the world. The original tower was made of clay fired bricks. The EU building was designed from the 1563 painting, and has nothing to do with the fulfillment of prophecy.
Taking a step back one could say that Rome itself could represent the first beast in Rev 13, because it covered the same areas as well. The only problem I see with this idea is the 7th head. Rome was the 6th, and that would mean the 7th of Anglo-America would also be included in this beast.
If this is the case, and the first beast is Rome (and we know Rome survives to the end because the stone hits the iron in Dan 2) then that could make the image of the beast the UN itself, it being the image of Rome, or the first beast. The two horned beast still looks like Anglo-America to me...
I agree. The U.S.A has the same type Government as Rome had right down to the Senate. Even the buildings of the Government look the same.
Well it's the second beast that has the two horns that sound like Anglo-America to me, it being the 7th horn of the first beast. The second beast is the one that sets up the "image" of the first beast, so if Anglo-America is the second beast then it can't be the image, but that the image must be of the first beast Rome. (Saying the first beast is Rome) Unless the image represents itself, but not sure that makes sense.
Well whoever is who, we do know this, "They are world powers." There have been eight world powers, and The United States of America is the eight world power. The eight world power is to fall over night...it looks like we are doing just that.
The most common understanding is that Anglo-America is the 7th; Rev 17:10 "And there are seven kings: Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet arrived; but when he does arrive, he must remain a short while." Rome was the 6th that John was talking about, then the 8th will be the entity that will come against Gods people during the great tribulation. Therefore Anglo-America would be the 7th.
Okay, so I don't know if this will have an eventual outcome, but this is as basic of a road I can see moving forward; The first beast of Rev 13 contains the leopard, bear and lion from Dan 7; Rev 13:2 "Now the wild beast that I saw was like a leopard, but its feet were like those of a bear, and its mouth was like a lion’s mouth." So which beast is missing from Dan 7? Dan 7:7 “After this I kept watching in the visions of the night, and I saw a fourth beast, fearsome and terrifying and unusually strong, and it had large iron teeth. It was devouring and crushing, and what was left it trampled down with its feet." So where is this fourth beast from Dan 7 in the 13th chapter of Rev? Well, maybe it's the second beast; Rev 13:11 "Then I saw another wild beast ascending out of the earth, and it had two horns like a lamb, but it began speaking like a dragon." It makes sense that the second beast in Rev 13 is the missing fourth beast from Dan 7 because the other three are mentioned as part of the first beast in Rev 13. IDK, maybe...
Daniel 7 and Rev 13 comparative. Dan 7:2 “I was watching in my visions during the night, and look! the four winds of the heavens were stirring up the vast sea. And four huge beasts came out of the sea, each different from the others." Rev 13:2 "And I saw a wild beast ascending out of the sea," Dan 7:4 “The first one was like a lion" Dan 7:5 “And look! another beast, a second one, like a bear." Dan 7:6 “After this I kept watching, and look! another beast, like a leopard," Rev 13:2 "Now the wild beast that I saw was like a leopard, but its feet were like those of a bear, and its mouth was like a lion’s mouth." It is also interesting that Rev 13:2 says that the first beast in Rev 13 has the mouth of the lion. So we know the lion in Dan 7 represented the head of Gold and Babylon in Dan 2, therefore it must be Babylon that is speaking in Rev 13 here; Rev 13:6 "And it opened its mouth in blasphemies against God to blaspheme his name and his dwelling place, even those residing in heaven." We can also compare what is said in Dan 7; Dan 7:8 "And look! there were eyes like human eyes in this horn, and there was a mouth speaking arrogantly." AsI've discusses before, the simplest answer for the small horn that comes up from the fourth beast is when Rome adopted the Catholic church as it's official religion, at which point Rome/iron became mixed with clay/people, that very same idea which the builders of the tower of Babel had. From clay they would build a tower to gather together in a one world government and religion as a people. Man=dust=clay=bricks=world religion=world government=Catholic/Roman idea and purpose, to form a world government/religion. Gen 11:3,4 "Then they said to one another: “Come! Let us make bricks and bake them with fire.†So they used bricks instead of stone, and bitumen as mortar. They now said: “Come! Let us build a city for ourselves and a tower with its top in the heavens, and let us make a celebrated name for ourselves, so that we will not be scattered over the entire face of the earth.†It would seem the second beast coming from the earth denotes from destruction. Therefore being the fourth beast of Dan 7, including itself and the small horn would represent Catholic/Rome conglomeration, and as well the 7th would power that had yet come to be from Rev 17 according to John. All I'm saying here is this is the simplest and most basic of understandings someone could make in chronology. We already know that Rome survives all the way to the end, even after mixing with clay according to Dan 2 and the image. We also know in this prophetic scenario from Dan 7 that four beasts will come to power before Gods people take hold of the kingdom; Dan 7:17 ‘These huge beasts, four in number, are four kings who will stand up from the earth. But the holy ones of the Supreme One will receive the kingdom, and they will possess the kingdom forever, yes, forever and ever.’" Therefore this must tell us that Rome survives to the end along with the clay mixture, and this clay must have been when Rome mixed with the people of the Catholic church.
It really shouldn't be a surprise that the Catholic church should be Babylon. Look at all of the traditions that were adopted by paganism, (from Babylon). Catholicism is simply pagan Babylon under a cloaked claim to be Christian. Even their images prove whom they worship. In the center of the courtyard at the Vatican lies the symbol of the sun god. As well the obelisk represents the phallus of Baal. And the false worship goes on and on and on; [video=youtube;B2zDj5h8uIQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2zDj5h8uIQ[/video]
Agreed Joshua, Roman Catholicism is Babylon the Great. On top of Revelation 17 and 18 demonstrating that 'she' is spiritual and religious in nature, I believe Zechariah 5 is telling us that Christianity and Judaism planted the great harlot in "Shinar" [which is Babylon], which would certainly apply to the Roman church, from a particular perspective. In other words, Christianity and Judaism, the 'two olive trees', the two women, delivered the Catholic church to spiritual Shinar. ------------ Then the angel who was speaking with me came forward and said to me: “Look up, please, and see what is going out.†So I asked: “What is it?†He replied: “This is the e′phah container that is going out.†He continued: “This is their appearance in all the earth.†And I saw that the round lid of lead was lifted up, and there was a woman sitting inside the container. So he said: “This is Wickedness.†Then he threw her back into the e′phah container, after which he thrust the lead weight over its mouth. Then I looked up and saw two women coming forward, and they were soaring in the wind. They had wings like the wings of a stork. And they lifted up the container between the earth and heaven. So I asked the angel who was speaking with me: “Where are they taking the e′phah container?†He replied: “To the land of Shi′nar to build her a house; and when it is prepared, she will be deposited there in her proper place.†Zechariah 5:5-11
I'm going to go through a few scriptures in Rev 13 here just to put it down in writing to see if I know what we can say for sure; Rev 13 "And it stood still on the sand of the sea." (The dragon) Rev 13 "And I saw a wild beast ascending out of the sea," (This matches the beasts coming from the sea in Dan 7:2,3) Dan 7:2,3 "Daniel declared: “I was watching in my visions during the night, and look! the four winds of the heavens were stirring up the vast sea. And four huge beasts came out of the sea, each different from the others." (So we know that these beasts are from the same place "sea" in both chapters.) Rev 13 "with ten horns" (In Dan 7 the fourth beast is described as having 10 horns as well.) Dan 7:7b "It was different from all the other beasts that were prior to it, and it had ten horns." (Are they the same ten horns? Well, we do see in Rev 17:12 that these horns are tied into the time of the end and the 8th king) Rev 17:12 “The ten horns that you saw mean ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they do receive authority as kings for one hour with the wild beast." (Are the horns the same through Dan 7, Rev 13, Rev 17, or do they change form?) Rev 13 "and seven heads" (It's pretty common knowledge that this correlates to Johns words in Rev 17:10) Rev 17:10 "And there are seven kings: Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet arrived; but when he does arrive, he must remain a short while." (So it should be clear that the first beast in Rev 13 has seven heads that stand for seven kings; Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome. These 6 were the ones that John says had been since his penciling Rev 17. Then we are left with the 7th.., but later on that.) Rev 13 "but on its heads blasphemous names." (This no doubt has to do with it's words as well at Rev 13:5 when it speaks blasphemously, and as well in Dan 7:8 the small horn is seen speaking arrogantly.) Dan 7:8 "and there was a mouth speaking arrogantly." Rev 13:5 "It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies," (Now to the beasts.) Rev 13 "Now the wild beast that I saw was like a leopard" Dan 7:6 "look! another beast, like a leopard" Rev 13 "but its feet were like those of a bear" Dan 7:5 "look! another beast, a second one, like a bear" Rev 13 "and its mouth was like a lion’s mouth" Dan 7:4 "The first one was like a lion" (Next, the dragon.) Rev 13 "And the dragon gave to the beast its power and its throne and great authority." (We know from Isaiah 14:13 that Satan claimed the tower of Babel as his throne. There was a supposed throne at the "Altar of Pergamon", which is apparently what Jesus was talking about in his letter to the church of Pergamon in Rev 2:13. But what exactly is meant by the dragon giving his throne and authority?) Rev 13 "I saw that one of its heads seemed to have been fatally wounded, but its mortal wound had been healed." (This is one of the most decisive scriptures in all of Rev. Some say it's the future 8th king rising, some say Anglo-America after WWII, and I have argued most recently that the simplest answer must be that it's Babylon, because that is the only city mentioned in Rev as alive after it was destroyed.) Rev 17:18 "And the woman whom you saw means the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth.†Rev 17:5 “Babylon the Great, the mother of the prostitutes and of the disgusting things of the earth.†I'll pick up on this more later...
Continued; Rev 13 "It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies," (The mouth of this beast was described in verse 2 as the lion. So therefore it is the lion that speaks blasphemies, and as presented in the last post it is the small horn of Dan 7 that also speaks, both being the same entity.) Rev 13 "and it was given authority to act for 42 months." (This is the same action by the little horn.) Dan 7:21 “I kept watching as that horn made war on the holy ones, and it was prevailing against them," Rev 13 "And it opened its mouth in blasphemies against God to blaspheme his name and his dwelling place, even those residing in heaven." (This scripture discusses the "small horn/lion mouth" beast circling the courtyard of the temple. Keep in mind the attack starts with the courtyard being encircled while the temple is left intact.) Rev 11:2 "But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, leave it out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for 42 months." Rev 13 "and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation." (This is an interesting scripture. Somehow this beast is given authority over nations and languages. What is most important to understand with this scripture is when was this authority given it, at it's creation, later?) Rev 13 "Then I saw another wild beast ascending out of the earth, and it had two horns like a lamb, but it began speaking like a dragon." (Now we see another beast from the earth. It should be noted that so far Rev 13 has been a 1:1 mirror of Dan 7, just as Dan 7 is a 1:1 of Dan 2, therefore this second beast should be no different. What beast is missing from Dan 7 that Rev 13 has yet to bring up? It the fourth beast that was described as fierce. Allowing scripture to define itself, this must be the simplest answer. The second beast of Rev 13 is the fourth beast of Dan 7. Now why the two horns? The answer again comes from Dan 7, the fourth beast and its small horn that come up make up this second beast in Rev 13 and its two horns. It may be noted that this beast is speaking, just like the mouth of the lion in the first beast. Coming from the earth denotes from death, so since one of the horns of this second beast is the lion/Babylon then it fits with the rebirth of Babylon as described in the lion in Dan 7. These two beasts in Rev 13 are very closely related, as we see almost identical descriptions of them both. Such as verse 2 and 12.) Rev 13:12 "It exercises all the authority of the first wild beast in its sight." Rev 13:2 "And the dragon gave to the beast its power and its throne and great authority." (It should be noted at this time that it would appear that the small horn in Dan 7 coming from the fourth beast is the lion/Babylon being reborn in that of the first beast, the lion in verse 4 of Dan 7. As well one of the horns in the second beast in Rev 13 must be the lions mouth of the first beast of verse 2. Therefore, "Small horn Dan 7=Lion Dan 7=Lion mouth Rev 13=Horn on second beast Rev 13". Moving on after some meditation...)
Okay, this is where I'm at... It would appear that although Dan 2, 7 and Rev 13 are mirrors of themselves they are representative of different time periods of the same entities, let me explain. In Dan 2 we see the initial establishment of the nations involved starting with Babylon, down to Rome. Then in Dan 7 we see a rebirth of these same nations, as you will see in the the lion/Babylon; Dan 7:4 “The first one was like a lion, and it had the wings of an eagle. I watched until its wings were plucked out, and it was lifted up from the earth and was made to stand up on two feet like a man, and it was given the heart of a man." You will notice that the lion's wings are plucked out meaning that it is no longer as powerful nor swift, but more importantly it is made to stand up on two feet as a man and given the heart of a man. In Dan 4 and the depiction of the tree Babylon is given the heart of a beast and goes about on all fours as the beasts of the field, therefore this depiction of Babylon in Dan 7 tells us of a moment Babylon is reborn after being destroyed, returning it to a state of man after becoming a beast in the field. It is also key to notice the use of the word "man". This is also the wording used in the small horn later in the chapter and as well the clay in the immense image of Dan 2. Dan 7:8 "And look! there were eyes like human eyes in this horn, and there was a mouth speaking arrogantly." Dan 2:43 "Just as you saw iron mixed with soft clay, they will be mixed with the people;" I have so argued, that it is the clay of the tower of Babel that is the rebirth of the ideology of that tower in Babel when Rome mixed with the Catholic church starting around 325 CE. And it is that ideology along with the churches influx and apostolic work that brings in the "people" to the kingdom of Rome. Hence would also give us a reference for the 2520 years, 7 times of the tree in Dan 4 from the moment that Jehovah confused the language at the tower until that clay reemerged as a nation on the world stage again in around 325 when Charlemagne donated the land for the Basilica of Peter to be constructed. Moving on... Now in Rev 13 I believe we have to say as well that this chapter is a mirror of both Dan 2 and 7. So therefore we must also see that this chapter is a new time period and a new healing. We know the first beast in Rev is the horn of the fourth beast in Rev 7 because they both come against Gods people for 1260 days/42 months. Dan 7:25 "He will speak words against the Most High, and he will continually harass the holy ones of the Supreme One. He will intend to change times and law, and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time." Rev 13:5 "It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months." It should also be noted at this time that we must consider the small horn in Dan 7 as the reborn lion of the same chapter. The only nation that is seen in Revelation to have come back to life after it had been destroyed is Babylon. Babylon The Great is that ancient city reborn and must be considered the death stroke of Rev 13 that is healed, there is no way to dispute this fact. It is the only nation seen alive in the time of the end after we know it was destroyed, for we know it is a city and a nation from Rev 17. Now with that in mind, the lion in Rev 13 must be this Babylon The Great. And since it is the mouth piece of the beast in both the small horn in Dan 7, and the first beast of Rev 13, then we should understand that in the future it would appear that it is Babylon The Great that will initiate "words against the most high", and "those who reside in heaven". (Christs brothers remaining on earth.) The logical next step to consider is this, when was the next event to bring back the Roman Catholic conglomeration from death after it's rebirth in around 325? It was none other then the Lateran Treaty in 1929 bringing back to life the lion/clay/Babylon mix when iron/Rome/Italy signed an agreement solidifying their relationship once again and making the Holy See again a sovereign nation. Therefore it must be understood that the first beast in Rev 13 is still just as it always has been as seen in the image in Dan 2, the iron mixed with clay, the Roman Catholic conglomeration, as we know that this mix, (in that of the clay and as well iron) survives all the way down to the point that Christs kingdom crushes it. It should also be noted that the European Union as an extension is this Rome on the world stage today encompassing all the original nations of Rome and as well the dragons throne and power over all such nations. This really shouldn't be any surprise to anyone, just look at the imagery of the EU; The half built tower of Babel, the women riding the beast, the upside down stars, and on and on... Next we look at the second beast of Rev 13... As Rev 13 is a mirror of Dan 2 and 7 then we must understand that the second beast with its two horns of Rev 13 must be the iron and clay of Dan 2, and as well it must be the fourth beast and the small horn of Dan 7. It must be the Roman Catholic two horned beast in Rev 13:11! It exercises all the authority of the first beast before it, as well it makes the world worship the first wild beast. So then "from the earth" that this second beast comes from again depicts the rebirth of the Lateran Treaty in 1929 between Italy and the Holy See, but this time it creates an image. Instead of a nation states conglomeration that we see in the European Union, we see an image, or an entity without such land, but that of an image of the actual European Union, and that is the United Nations! As a member of the United Nations, the Holy See has all capabilities within the council such as presenting papers, speaking to the council and they even have great influence over decisions made. They only do not have the vote, because they have as of yet declined to take on that privilege by choice, but left open for the future. I know I have peers that will stand up now and say, "No way has the mark come about yet for when men receive the mark they are doomed to eternal cutting off." Let me just say to you that Rev 11 is sound chronologically from verses 1-45. It is a mistake to think that the beast goes into the abyss and comes out as the 8th king before the MOL is revealed, before the constant feature is removed, etc... The final battle between the north and south comes in verse 40 of Dan 11, and if you read between verses 29 and 39 all of those events happen before the north finally gains the upper hand over the king of the south. You can't just cut the chapter up and place the verses where ever you want. They are placed there by God in their order because that is the order in which they occur. The death stroke of Rev 13 is not the abyssing in Rev 17. John tells us "The beast you saw was", and how did John see that beast? He saw it already having a death stroke that was healed. A single head, not the whole beast. He never saw the beast before it had a healed death stroke, therefore the angel is saying the beast "was" as we saw it in Rev 13, then it goes down into the "abyss" (Remember the beast in Rev 13 is from the sea) before rising as a one world order in the form of the 8th king out of the "abyss"! So in order to currently receive the mark of the beast you must become a member or NGO of the UN. Hence why in the first trumpet we read of those men who received the mark of the beast developing soars depicting their guilt of joining themselves to Satan's organization. In the future when that 8th king rises it will no doubt be much easier to gain that mark for the offer to become a member will be extended to all mankind, but I'm sure some of us here can think of a few men who had taken it upon themselves to become members of the UN as NGO status in our day... Did you know that the publishing company for the United Nations is the Lucid Publishing Company? It changed its name a few years back from the Lucifer Publishing Company and it had an address of "666 United Nations Plaza". It is this company that still to this day publishes all of the United Nations publications. They are well known for their publishing of new and old world occult doctrine.
Very interesting Joshua, some things I never considered here. The "heart of a man" vs the Daniel 4 "heart of a beast" is a really good point. And it was a 7 year period for Nebuchadnezzar. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm....... I'll have to read this again!
SingleCell, check this out... Rev 13:13 "And it performs great signs, even making fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the sight of mankind." Rev 8:7 "The first one blew his trumpet. And there was hail and fire mingled with blood, and it was hurled to the earth;" Some interesting connections occur when you start to look at Dan 2, 7 and Rev 13 as mirrors of each other. As you know I've been clinging to the idea that the clay/small horn/and one of the horns of the second beast in Rev 13 are all the same entity in that of Babylon reborn, or the lion/head of gold in each chapter. Therefore when the small horn comes against Gods people for 1260 days it is they who speak out against them and it would appear that the fire that comes from heaven to the earth is the same fire in the first trumpet. As we should note, the first four trumpets are against Gods own people. Dan 11:30 “He will go back and hurl denunciations against the holy covenant and act effectively; and he will go back and will give attention to those leaving the holy covenant." Therefore the signs the false prophet performs when causing fire to come down to earth is the allegations against the WTS, and the start of the removal of the constant feature. This is just a thought at the moment and on this matter I'm not set in stone, but I think it's interesting and I'll give more thought on it...
I absolutely agree about the fire -- it's not literal -- but the 'fire' of testing which is the judgement against God's house. And for this reason [fire not being literal] the VAST majority of interpreters are barking up the wrong tree (IMO). Good job putting those events together! I think you're right.