The Hebrew nation, under the Old Covenant promise, had the same availability for the forgiveness of sin as we have under the New Covenant promise. The Israelites needed multiple sacrifices to cover sin, whereas we need a single sacrifice through Christ. "And the priest shall make atonement before the LORD for the person who makes a mistake, when he sins unintentionally, to make atonement for him, and he shall be forgiven." Num 15:28 "He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself." Heb 7:27 "in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins." Col 1:14 Under the Old Covenant promise, the issue was that such sacrifices at the temple could never perfect and completely remove sin from humanity. "And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins." Heb 10:11 Had the sacrifices under the Old Covenant removed sin from the Israelites, no sacrifices would have been continued to be offered. Just as under the New Covenant, once sins are removed, our Lord's sacrifice will no longer be offered to forgive sin. Currently, our Lord's sacrifice is offered on behalf of sins. "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.” Acts 10:43 Therefore, since sins are still being forgiven, our Lord's sacrifice is still being offered to mankind in the forgiveness of sin. Once that sacrifice is no longer offered, there will no longer be a sacrifice offering for sin. "I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more." Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin." Heb 10:17,18 --- When are sins removed, and God no longer remembers them? "I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more. Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin." Heb 10:17,18 "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.” Jer 31:33,34 Hebrews 10:16 describes "those days," quoting Jeremiah, when Jehovah will remember sins no more and write upon our hearts. "Those days" are after Christ sat down at the right hand of God and after His enemies are made footstools. "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,” Heb 10:16 After what days? After these days: "But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet." V12,13 Not all of Christ's enemies have been made a footstool yet; therefore, it's not time to remove sin from us. "At present, we do not yet see everything in subjection to him." Heb 8:2 "The last enemy to be destroyed is death." 1Cor 15:26 So when will our Lord's enemies be made a footstool so that He removes sins and no longer remembers them? It's after Israel is saved and the full number of Gentiles come in. "Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery. Brothers, a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob, “and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.” Rom 11:25-27 "I will remove the iniquity of this land in a single day. In that day, declares the LORD of hosts, every one of you will invite his neighbor to come under his vine and under his fig tree.” Zech 3:9,10 At that point, there will be no one on earth that does not know Jehovah. (Jer 31:34) --- Once sins are removed, you will no longer be conscious of sin within you. "Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins?" Heb 10:2 Paul was aware/conscious of the sin within him. "So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me." Rom 7:17 Sin had not been removed from Paul yet. That doesn't happen until our Lord's enemies are made a footstool, and we are made perfect, no longer having a consciousness of sin within us. Instead, we still need our Lord's sacrifice to cover the sin within us. "Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked." Gen 3:7 "I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see." Rev 3:18 Let us remain in expectation of receiving the inheritance through the Will of Christ's sacrifice. (Heb 9:16) "An inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you," 1Pt 1:4 Joshua
The one does not follow consequentially from the other, only incidentally and sequentially, I would say. Those in the new covenant are declared righteous for life here and now; all others will be perfected in the re-creation, the end of the restoration of all things the prophets spoke about. Ro 5:18; Ac 3:21; Mat 19:28 Yes, the sin in his flesh, his body, that died when Christ did on its behalf; hence the imperative to walk in Spirit of the One who was raised up from the dead, which is a choice on a level with what Adam had before the fall. It was removed to the point of their being declared guiltless by, and in, Christ's sacrifice, to be appropriated by faith in those to whom it has been revealed. Ac 13:38,39; Jude 3 "For it is by one sacrificial offering that he has made those who are being sanctified perfect perpetually." Heb 10:14 Let that sink in! " . . . death ruled as king from Adam down to Moses, even over those who had not sinned after the likeness of the transgression by Adam . . . " Ro 5:14 Yes, an inheritance for those already forgiven and with a perfected conscience through the new covenant; for 'we ourselves also, who have the Spirit, are earnestly waiting for the release from our bodies.' Ro 8:23 Harry
I proved you wrong, and you are incapable of understanding it. Sin is not removed till after Christ's enemies are made a footstool, Israel is saved, and the full number of the Gentiles has come in. I proved it through the text, and you just continue touting your wrong assumptions. Mental gymnastics. What you say means nothing. "His sin in him died when Christ did?" And that's how it's removed? Paul talks about the sin that lives within him. Your words are meaningless. Sin cannot live in Paul but then also have died in Paul. Your words contradict Paul himself. You are incapable of understanding what I presented; all you can do is tout your belief, which is full of paradoxes. "To the point of." Enough said... "waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. For it is by one sacrificial offering that he has made those who are being sanctified perfect perpetually." Heb 10:13,14 After His enemies are made a footstool, Christ's sacrifice makes the sanctified perfect "forever." "Has made" does not appear in the Greek. It simply says, "His sacrifice perfects the sanctified for all time." That one sentence doesn't tell you when. lol..."Let that sink in." lol You are so quick to judge and to offer opinion as fact. You live forever in perfection already, do you? Oh, let me guess, there's another "In so much as" full of paradoxes coming....lol I'm so glad for you that you've reached perfection before Paul. "Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus." Phil 3:12 But according to you, Paul's sins were removed and were dead, and he had a perfected conscience, meaning he was not conscious of sin within him. Hmm, it sure sounds like he said sin was very much alive in him, and he was very conscious of it, and that he was not perfected yet. Paradox, paradox, paradox. Yet you know better, right? You are incapable of seeing, Harry. Yet you speak as though you see. Therefore, you remain blind. Through your ignorance you have insulted me at least three or four times, saying that I am not Christian and have fallen away, even touting yourself as a higher class. Through the way you judge, you will be judged. If you believe I am unchristian for what I have presented, then may you be judged through the accuracy of your understanding as well. Fair? Are you willing to stake your everlasting sanctification on your current understandings being correct? Speak... You're quick to judge mine. Why not stand behind yours with your everlasting life at stake? You are incapable of understanding what I presented because you think you know already. "If anyone imagines that he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know." 1Cor 8:2 Joshua
For those who may find this subject difficult to follow, I will break down the chronology further. "After those days" God writes His covenant upon their hearts; at which point, He no longer remembers their sins. "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds, I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more." Heb 10:16-18 After what days? "But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet." V12,13 Everything in verses 16-18 are after His enemies are made a footstool; including the covenant written upon their hearts. This is verified through Jeremiah in whom Paul is quoting. "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.” Jer 31:33,34 Sins are removed after our Lord's enemies are made a footstool. They are not yet. "At present, we do not yet see everything in subjection to him." Heb 8:2 "The last enemy to be destroyed is death." 1Cor 15:26 This is all verified through Paul's own words. "Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery. Brothers, a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob, “and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.” Rom 11:25-27 This is the truth of the matter... --- Once these are forgiven one last time, there will no longer be an offering for sin, to anyone. Our Lord's sacrifice will no longer be offered. "Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin." Heb 10:18 Currently the sacrifice offering of our Lord remains in place, but will not be applied to those sinning intentionally. "For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins." Heb 10:26 God's plans are His, not our own. The truth will occur, regardless of our personal understanding. God's plans don't require you to understand, to come to fruition. Joshua
"For you were buried with Him in His baptism, and by relationship with Him you were also raised up together through your faith in the operation of God, who raised Him up from the dead." Col 2:12 "Present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead." Ro 6:13 "Reckon yourselves to be dead indeed with reference to sin, but living with reference to God by Christ Jesus." Ro 6:11 "Since YOU were set free from sin, YOU became slaves to righteousness." Ro 6:18 These are the words of God; read 'em and weep. “Jehovah’s spirit is upon me, because he anointed me to declare good news to the poor, he sent me forth to preach a release to the captives and a recovery of sight to the blind, to send the crushed ones away with a release, to preach Jehovah’s acceptable year;" With that he rolled up the scroll, handed it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were intently fixed upon him. Then he started to say to them: “Today this scripture that YOU just heard is fulfilled.” Lu 4:18-21 The last enemy, death, is only removed at the end of the 1000 years, which would mean that the glorified, immortal chosen ones in Heaven during the 1000 years would still be in their sins while acting as kings and priests over the nations on earth - are you serious? lol - come on, you got to be trolling. The fullness of the gentiles started coming into spiritual Israel 2000 years ago at the start of the new covenant, which took their sins away from that point onward. And why is that? Because they have once for all been enlightened and tasted the heavenly free gift of righteousness and have become partakers of Holy Spirit and been brought back to the perfection of conscience that Adam had before he sinned. Harry
You take my words out of context just like you do the Bible's. Did I say, "His sin in him died when Christ did?" Or did I say, "His sin in him died when Christ did?" And that's how it's removed?" Which one did I say? Considering yourself dead to the law of sin has nothing to do with sin being removed and a sacrifice offering no longer being available. "Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death." Rom 7:25 "So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus." Rom 6:11 "For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death." Rom 8:2 You still are unable to justify, through your interpretation, how sin can dwell within Paul. It's because your interpretation is wrong, and I am trying to help you. My explanation removes all paradoxes. "So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me." Rom 7:17 So you just pick one, huh? You just pick for yourself after what days God is talking about. Even though the scriptures I quoted directly correlated and coincided with each other word for word. You take the Bible's words out of context like you do with others around you. lol... The first Gentile didn't even come in until Cornelious, years after Jesus died...lol So, when exactly were sins starting to be removed? Besides, Paul said "Until the full number of the Gentiles comes in." You blind yourself to the speaker's context. You feel you can interpret their words however you wish. Until the day you recognize that only the speaker can define their meaning, you will always be blind to Paul's intent. You failed to understand what I said. There is a difference between an offering for sin no longer being offered to those whose sins are removed and an offering remaining or not toward an unrepentant sinner. Why does Paul say an offering for sin will no longer be offered to those forgiven? I guess you no longer need forgiveness for your sins since you believe your sins have been removed. Everything you say leads me to believe that you feel you are without sin. If you still have sin within you, that contradicts everything you have been saying. You put yourself above Paul who said he was conscious of sin within himself. Having no consciousness of sin in you means just that, you are aware of no sin within you. It's not difficult to understand. Again, you must be without sin...lol "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." 1Jhn 1:8 I didn't say anything about a class separate from Israel. I quoted Paul, who speaks of removing Israel's sins. Your understanding of the sons of Abraham being a separate class is nonsense. Anyone with faith is part of Israel and a son of Abraham. And since I'm getting to know your assumptions quite well, don't bother thinking I don't believe there is a second ruling class; that is not what I said. It's pretty sad that I must foresee an assumption on your part and answer it before you even make the wrong assumption. Those ruling the kingdom will not remain, sons of Abraham, when in Heaven. Go ahead, Harry, throw yourself on the floor and start kicking your feet. The two groups are Israel and Judah. (Zech 12:7) Israel will be the subjects and Judah the rulers. The Liar is released at the end of the 1000 years, and many will fall into sin. I said what I meant, and you attempted to twist my words. You do know who invented the twisting of other's words, don't you, Harry? Every time you interpret, twist, and say something the other does not intend to say, you support that form of communication invented in the Garden of Eden. Personally, I would do everything I could to rid myself of such behavior. "There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures." 2Pt 3:15,16 "All day long they twist my words; all their schemes are for my ruin." Psm 56:5 Joshua
Past tense, present reality - not some promise awaiting future fulfillment, as you make it out to be. Past tense, present reality - not some promise awaiting future fulfillment, as you make it out to be. Why must you? Because it is a present reality to be appropriated by faith in those called to it. Past tense, present reality - not some promise awaiting future fulfillment, as you make it out to be. And where does that sin dwell? In my body and its members, also referred to as the flesh. Therefore, "if Christ is in you, the body indeed is dead on account of sin, but the spirit is life on account of righteousness." All present tense. "If, now, the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also make your mortal bodies alive through His Spirit that resides in you." Ro 8:10,11 All present reality, not some future promise to be fulfilled in another life, as you claim, but all happening here and now. Our body that is dead to sin has to be made alive today, not in the distant future, once we gain immortality; for he says 'your mortal bodies,' which therefore has to happen here and now while we still have a mortal body - you get it? Just after Jesus died . . . which was . . . ah, yes, 2000 years ago - remember? lol Yes, exactly so; for how to be conscious of something that is not charged against you? Because those that Christ 'once for all time' obtained an 'everlasting deliverance' for, are still free moral agents, albeit righteous before Jehovah as Adam was before the fall, and are therefore still able to choose rebellion against Him by sinning against the Holy Spirit. Heb 9:12; Mat 12:31,32 The sin that has been expunged by Christ's death is that which was inherited from Adam, which is why the sin he committed is of a different category, one that could not be forgiven in this life nor the one to come. Ro 5:14 I didn't say you did, but that is what Scripture says, namely, the nations and those who will bless them. But you do not believe in the removal of sins before Christ's return, that everyone who believes is now declared guiltless by means of Him; therefore see to it that what is said in the Prophets does not come upon you, 'Behold it, you scorners, and wonder at it, and vanish away, because I am working a work in your days, a work that you will by no means believe even if anyone relates it to you in detail,' such as I have done here. Ac 13:38-41
You constantly fail to comprehend. I did not say that. I said we are considered dead to the law of sin now, not future. I said it was active now. You are oblivious. Again, oblivious. I said we are considered dead to the law of sin now. We are forgiven now, Harry. Wow... Again, again, again... This is just a regular pattern of your inability to comprehend what I am saying. I said we are forgiven now. You are unable to understand what Paul is saying. He's talking about after Israel is saved, ungodliness is banished, and the full number of Gentiles come in. Then and only then are sins removed. So when exactly was Israel saved? Because when Paul wrote this, it had not yet been saved, according to him. By saying you have no consciousness of sin and sin itself has been removed from you, you are saying you are without sin. I'll just leave this here again. "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." 1Jhn 1:8 You are completely mistaken and unable even to comprehend what I am saying. I clearly said we are forgiven of our sins through Christ (currently) in the very first sentence of this thread, and every post after. And I quote: Our sins are currently covered/cleansed through the blood of Christ as we await the removal of sin from the entire kingdom of God. My sin is forgiven now through Christ. Hence, there currently remains a sacrifice for sin. When the kingdom comes sin will be removed and life will be perfected. (Without sin) After which no sacrifice will be offered. If you sin after that, you die. This is monotonous... Joshua
You are wrong; I am not saying anything here, just quoting Scripture - which you wrongly charge with implying that we are without sin - to wit: 'those who have been cleansed once for all time have no consciousness of sins anymore,' and, 'He has manifested Himself once for all time to put sin away through the sacrifice of Himself,' where that which is 'put away' has been 'removed.' Heb 10:2; 9:26 You are mistaken; all Israel - meaning, the chosen ones, comprised of Jew and Gentile - are saved in the here and now since 36 CE, because in 33 CE their sins were removed, or put away, by Christ's sacrifice. Heb 9:26 The Israel of God was saved when the Deliverer came out of Zion in 33 CE, at which time God took their sins away by means of the new covenant. Heb 11:25-27 The chosen ones are saved, sanctified and declared righteous here and now; you are very much mistaken. Harry
What year was Romans written? 56ce-57ce? "Brothers, a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob, “and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.” Rom 11:25-27 Twenty years after Christ lived, Paul said, "Currently, there was a hardening of Israel." (That was in 57ce, btw) He also said that hardening would occur until the "full number of the Gentiles came in." You're a Gentile. I'm a Gentile. Therefore, Israel is still hardened. Then Paul says that was the way Israel would be saved, by the full number of Gentiles coming in. ("Will be saved"... Did you catch that?) Then he goes on to say ungodliness would be banished. Hmm... In what year is Paul saying this again? According to Paul, none of this happened yet by 57ce. Then, and only then, after all Gentiles, including you and me, came in, would sin be removed, and Israel saved. Our sins are forgiven/covered through the blood of Christ today. One day, sin will be removed from Israel. I don't know how many more ways I can say it before you catch on. If our Lord does not open your eyes to this, there's obviously a reason. lol... I believe the exact same thing. You're oblivious to everything I've said. How can you discount what I've said without understanding any of it? You argue it all away without even being able to comprehend what it is I am saying. Hence, why you are constantly contradicting my meaning. Wow, Harry... Joshua
So, the 'Israel' that is numerically incomplete due to hardening is the Jewish contingent of spiritual Israel, into which the full number of Gentile Christians have to come to complete it as the 'all Israel' that will be saved, which started to happen in 36 CE. The 'all Israel' of Ro 11:26 is the 'real Israel' of Ro 9:6, which is only partially made up of those who spring from national Israel, the Jewish nation. Hence, when the promised new covenant was made with spiritual Israel - the 'all Israel' composed of both Jews and Gentiles - at Pentecost 33 CE, it was then that also their sins were taken away, according to Paul's interpretation of Scripture and what happened in real life at that time. Yes, but those who believed - both Jew and Gentile - were not punished along with those who were hardened in unbelief, by having to wait for their sins to be taken away until the fullness of their respective numbers were attained, as you mistakenly imply. No, ungodliness is banished upon belief of the individual on a case by case basis, to wit: 'If some did not express faith, will their lack of faith perhaps make the faithfulness of God without effect? Never may that happen!' Ro 3:3 God declares ungodly ones righteous by their faith in His promises independent of everybody else, and this has been going on since Christ has risen in 33 CE. Ro 4:5 No, my salvation does not have to wait for anybody else's coming into the body of Christ - that sort of reasoning is as absurd as the, 'unless everybody is safe, no one is safe' collectivist lie that was propagated in connection with the experimental jibby-jab in 2021. No, Jesus did more than just cover sin up, as under the old covenant; He actually 'put sin away through the sacrifice of Himself,' completely removing it from those being sanctified, resulting in a perfect conscience before God. Heb 9:26 I am sure you mean well, but that cannot be the basis for conveying truth as expounded in Scripture. Harry
You adjust your interpretation of Scripture to fit your narritive. Cognitive dissonance at its finest. There are so many paradoxes in that explanation it's a waist of brain cells to even bother. God's "basis for conveying truth" is not up to you. You present the very blindness Paul spoke of. "For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked." Rev 3:17 "I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see." Rev 3:18 "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." 1Jhn 1:8 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;" Rom 4:7 Remain in your blindness then, Harry...
And I quote: "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." 1Jhn 1:8 "For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked." Rev 3:17 "I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see." Rev 3:18 Joshua
I supplied Scripture references for all the points I made that you listed, but it is your erroneous contention that they contradict 1 Joh 1:8. You got to do better than that.
If as I have presented, Paul's discussion of removing sin is still future when no sin exists, you are saying you are without sin now. Besides, your view above is clear. Adam was sinless before the fall.
Yes: 'I am impaled along with Christ; it is no longer I that live, but it is Christ that is living in me.' Ga 2:20 "We know that our old self was impaled with Him, that our sinful body might be made inactive, that we should no longer go on being slaves to sin; for he who has died has been acquitted from his sin." Ro 6:6,7
None of that talks about sin being removed and no longer being aware of it; and you ignore the chronology that proves you are wrong. Everything you just quoted agrees with my position. It literally says, "Our sinful bodies." Being inactive to sin and acquitted does not make us perfect and remove Adamic sin from us and make our bodies no longer sinful. The removal of sin means being perfect, without sin. If you say you have no sin (sin is removed, with no consciousness of it) the truth is not in you. Paul was conscious of sin in him; you claim you are not. You claim you are like Adam before he fell. The truth is not in you. "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." 1Jhn 1:8
We originate with God; he that gains the knowledge of God listens to us; he that does not originate with God does not listen to us; this is how we take note of the inspired expression of truth and the inspired expression of error.