What are you saying? I don't assume... If I were to assume: You are saying I do not originate with God because I don't except your interpretations? lol "For if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself." Gal 6:3
Answer this paradox, Harry... "You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin." 1Jhn 3:5 "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." 1Jhn 1:8 John equates the taking of sin away with our Lord's sinless nature, meaning that when sins are taken away, we will be like our Lord, sinless. So.... Now what, Harry? --- Oh, and BTW, don't forget this: "Since it had behoved him many times to suffer from the foundation of the world, but now once, at the full end of the ages, for putting away of sin through his sacrifice, he hath been manifested;" Heb 9:26 "So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous." Mth 13:49 "And the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels." Mth 13:39 "Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age." Mth 13:40
Your interpretation means that your sin is not yet taken away; don't let me and the Word of God persuade you otherwise. Repentance and faith in Christ having taken sin away is the only way out of it. Righteousness - being right with God - is through faith alone; but faith can only be exercised before being caught away into Heaven, because once immortal, no one can say they believe that they are right with God.
That is correct. My sins are washed clean and covered by the blood of Christ as I await the inheritance and removal of sin at the end of the age. (Heb 9:26) I don't care about what you and or I say; I only care about what God's Word says. So, thank you anyway, but I prefer to let God's Word alone persuade me. That is not the case at all and is a lie. Belief in Christ removing sin today is not required for salvation. Don't say something such as that; that is not based on truth. You are so quick to judge my salvation based on your interpretation. Take a stand, and put your eternal salvation on the line by stating if you are wrong about sins being removed today, you would give up your salvation. You can judge me by it, why not yourself? If you are that sure, say it. You sure seem to think I'm not saved for not believing it, so you shouldn't have a problem saying you will not be saved if you are wrong. "Faith without works is dead." Jms 2:17 Joshua
Heb 9:26 says the second time Jesus appears will be apart from sin, which was already put away at His first coming, believe it or not. Heb 9:26 Good, that's how it should be with all of us; however: 1 Joh 5:9-12 ' . . . to give knowledge of salvation to his people by forgiveness of their sins . . . ' Lu 1:77 That which God has forgiven is removed, never to be brought up again. I am just telling you what Scripture says; whether that applies to you is up to God. Don't believe what has not been given you by Him to believe. "Now to the man that works the pay is counted, not as an undeserved kindness, but as a debt; on the other hand, to the man that does not work but puts faith in him who declares the ungodly one righteous, his faith is counted as righteousness." Ro 4:4 By all means make God a debtor to you through your works, or else opt for His righteousness by accepting His undeserved kindness as a free gift; its up to you. Harry
No, no, it doesn't. You are sadly mistaken. It clearly says He is to remove sin at the end of the ages. "Apart" does not appear in the original Greek, nor in the dozens of translations I have available; and neither does the phrase "has appeared," occur in the text. Click: (Greek Interlinear) Heb 9:26 "but now once, at the full end of the ages, for taking away sin through his sacrifice, He is manifested." We can do this all day, Harry. "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." 1Jhn 1:8 God forgave the Hebrews' sins under the Law, Harry, and even removed them. And they had a clear conscience. Now what? "I will confess my transgressions to the Lord”; And You forgave the guilt of my sin. Selah." Psm 32:5 "He has removed our sins as far from us as the east is from the west." Psm 103:12 “I have wiped out your transgressions like a thick cloud And your sins like a heavy mist. Return to Me, for I have redeemed you.” Ish 44:22 "I thank God whom I serve, as did my ancestors, with a clear conscience." 2Tim 1:3 ------- So the Hebrew's sins were "forgiven," "removed," and they were "redeemed." Their "conscience" was also clear before God. What exactly do we have that they didn't, Harry? You are not telling me what Scripture says. I'm the one who takes Scripture literally. You are the one applying more to Scripture than is actually there, through interpretation. What you present is from you, not God. I'll earn my wages, thank you very much. I'm not looking for a free hand out. You misapply that scripture. "Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due." Rom 4:4 You don't know as much about this subject as you think you do. And that's okay; the problem is you claim to and judge others based on your claims. Therefore, you get my contentiousness. If you claim to be a spokesman of God and judge others through your assumptions in God's Word, it's not a good look. You won't even judge yourself by the same standards. Joshua
Sin is a fascinating word to be sure. It is a noun and also a verb. When somebody steals something, his sin(verb) can be removed through faith in Jesus Christ. Every person in the world has this privilege provided them if they so choose to put faith in it. (Heb 10:12) “. . .But this man offered one sacrifice for sins(verb) perpetually and sat down at the right hand of God,” Regardless of how many times God forgives and removes the sin(verb) from us, which is countless to be sure, we still live in sin(noun) because we are not perfect yet. We cannot go a day without somehow sinning(verb) regardless of how hard we try. (Ro 7:15) “. . .For what I am working out I do not know. For what I wish, this I do not practice; but what I hate is what I do.” (Ro 7:21-25) “21 I find, then, this law in my case: that when I wish to do what is right, what is bad is present with me. 22 I really delight in the law of God according to the man I am within, 23 but I behold in my members another law warring against the law of my mind and leading me captive to sin’s law that is in my members. 24 Miserable man that I am! Who will rescue me from the body undergoing this death? 25 Thanks to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So, then, with my mind I myself am a slave to God’s law, but with my flesh to sin’s(noun) law.” However, to those who are called and chosen, Jesus blood provides them with perpetual forgiveness provided they remain faithful, as they have already been sanctified through Jesus Christs offering. (Heb 10:14) “. . .For it is by one sacrificial offering that he has made those who are being sanctified perfect perpetually.” (Heb 10:10) “10 By the said “will” we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time.” The holy ones(144K) have been declared righteous by Jesus Christs blood, meaning that their sin(noun) is no longer seen by Jehovah, they are perfect, even though they are not. In Gods eyes, their sin(noun) has been taken away through the blood that Jesus Christ offered. (Ro 5:9) “. . .Much more, therefore, since we have been declared righteous now by his blood, shall we be saved through him from wrath.” (Ro 5:16-17) “. . .Also, it is not with the free gift as it was with the way things worked through the one [man] that sinned. For the judgment resulted from one trespass in condemnation, but the gift resulted from many trespasses in a declaration of righteousness. 17 For if by the trespass of the one [man] death ruled as king through that one, much more will those who receive the abundance of the undeserved kindness and of the free gift of righteousness rule as kings in life through the one [person], Jesus Christ.” Sin(noun) resides within the flesh. Our flesh acts out the sinful actions that it desires, which is sinning(verb). I feel that you two are arguing/discussing/debating over the same word but looking at different aspects of such. For the rest of humanity, their sin(noun) will be removed later, although their sins(verb) can be forgiven now with a repentant attitude. This is how I see it, but if my perspective needs adjustment I have no doubt Jehovah will see to it. Regardless of whether one is a chosen vessel or part of the great crowd doesn't matter for we will all stand before the judgment seat of God and render an account for himself to our creator.
The word "has" does not appear in the original Greek. Translations add this verb to indicate their interpretation of when this event takes place. Nothing about the timing can be taken from this one sentence. Also, what is translated as "perpetual" is the Greek words "eis dienekes," simply meaning "for all time, forever." So the perfection it speaks of has to be the same as that in a million years from now. It reads: "For by one offering he perfects for all time those sanctified." Clickable: (Interlinear) That's the original Greek. Therefore, when being objective, you must say there is no time stamp on when the sanctified are made perfect, and you must read on to determine when this happens, not just assume. At which point you take direct word-for-word concepts from Paul to determine they have not been perfected yet. "Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own." Phil 3:12 Again, you must account for Paul's words when he says he is not perfect. God's Word does not contain paradoxes. No, Harry claims sins are removed now, and God's sanctified are perfect now like Adam before sin. The problem is that that understanding has all kinds of paradoxes. I know because I used to think like he does not too long ago. I had to adjust my understanding to remove all paradoxes. Paul said sin lived in him. How can there be sin in Paul if it was removed and he was perfect when he clearly said he was not? (Rom 7:17) Paul says Christ removes sin at the end of the ages. "Since it had behoved him many times to suffer from the foundation of the world, but now once, at the full end of the ages, for taking away of sin through his sacrifice, he hath been manifested;" Heb 9:26 "So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous." Mth 13:49 "And the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels." Mth 13:39 "Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age." Mth 13:40 --- Paul says once sin is removed, there no longer is a sacrifice for sin. Christ's sacrifice is still being offered. Can sins be removed today? What did John say about this??? "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." 1Jhn 1:8 We cannot resolve cognitive dissonance through confirmation bias. Only the speaker can define their meaning. Our interpretations are irrelevant. Hence the point... How can sin reside in you if Christ removed it and made you perfect already? And you're perfect but Paul wasn't? Huh? (That is a rhetorical question. I'm not asking you specifically PaulAche, I am speaking to the premise.) The Hebrews had their sins removed and forgiven and were redeemed with a clear conscience. "I will confess my transgressions to the Lord”; And You forgave the guilt of my sin. Selah." Psm 32:5 "He has removed our sins as far from us as the east is from the west." Psm 103:12 “I have wiped out your transgressions like a thick cloud And your sins like a heavy mist. Return to Me, for I have redeemed you.” Ish 44:22 "I thank God whom I serve, as did my ancestors, with a clear conscience." 2Tim 1:3 ------- So what exactly do we have the Hebrews didn't? These paradoxes cannot be answered by propping up a false premise. You must consider you could be wrong and entertain all possibilities until there are no longer any paradoxes. Sin is removed at the end of the ages when we are made perfect. At which point there no longer is a sin offering. If you sin at the end of the 1000 years, you die. There are no paradoxes with this understanding. Our sins are currently cleansed and washed clean through the covering of our Lord's blood. "I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see." Rev 3:18 Joshua
"but now once, at the full end of the ages, for taking away sin through his sacrifice, He is manifested." Yes, "NOW," which was written as having happened 2000 years ago, sin was taken away! When Jesus returns, the Christian age will end with the chosen ones getting caught up into Heaven as immortal beings, and Christianity will be abolished along with the new covenant. Christ's brothers, once glorified at the coming of Jesus will have no need of a new covenant to have their sins removed, because there is none to remove, which is why the new covenant has to be in operation now. Yes, you yourself are bearing witness about your situation and reality as I pointed out previously, when you accused me of 'assuming' this of you, remember? But by the grace of God that is not my reality and experience, nor by definition that of any Christian during the past 2000 years. Good for you; but I am happy to take it, because I know I can't hold up my end of the log. You judge yourself; just own it. Harry
May you be judged as you judge. "For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you." Mth 7:2 It is one thing to present your interpretations and quite the other to claim you are the spokesman from God pronouncing judgment on others. You are becoming a waste of my time. I do not need to justify my salvation or faith to you. But just so you know how much of an idiot you just made yourself: I don't "work" to gain something, I am a slave of righteousness, an unworthy servant doing what I'm supposed to be doing. (Luk 17:10) My wages very well may be "death," Harry, for my past sin, and if so, that is the wages I'm working for. I have no expectations of making it. I'll work for God till I die, knowing already I won't make it because of my sin. I don't "work" to gain something for myself. You have no idea what you are talking about... If I work to gain the wages of death, so be it.... I will still stand for honor, truth, and righteousness! Consider this a warning. Joshua
Hi Paul, thanks for joining the discussion, but sorry, there is nothing in what you wrote I can disagree with; try again, lol. Harry
Yes, present tense written 2000 years ago, and therefore in operation since then. Yes, God views them as such. Yes, there are different ages, like the Jewish age, the Christian age and so on. Hence, Christ removed consciousness of sin for His brothers at the end of the Mosaic age. Wrong; "so also the Christ was offered once for all time to bear the sins of many." Heb 9:28 Christ's immortal brothers, who are heirs of the new covenant, can't even sin anymore at the start of the 1000 years, let alone their end - what are you talking about? Harry
That won't be your lot if you have faith in Jesus; the Word of God guarantees you that. But you should expect to make it; "for he that approaches God must believe that he is and that he becomes the rewarder of those earnestly seeking him." Heb 11:6 Your sins are forgiven, that is what Jesus died for, just be willing to believe it: "The person not having faith in God has made Him a liar, because he has not put his faith in the witness given, which God as witness has given concerning His Son." 1 Joh 5:10 Harry
Are you just going to continue to judge my faith? Who gives you the right? Harry, let me say this again. I have full expectations of not making it, and I don't need your opinion on the matter. Regardless, at the end of the day, it's not up to me. And what you think I should or shouldn't believe on the matter means nothing to me. My faith and my works are no longer for my own gain. I may have thought that way once when I was young and immature. Today, after the life I have lived, I do not serve God for personal gain. Today, I serve God, hoping that He may spare my young son and wife. I serve God because I know honor, truth, and righteousness will prevail, regardless of my fate. And I serve God because He deserves my devotion. All that your judgments toward me have accomplished has been to show your heart condition. If you're good with that, that's up to you. I don't judge anyone's faith or salvation. Joshua
What gives you the idea that I judge your faith? Like, how would that be of advantage to me, or detriment to you? Try using logic. I merely comment on what you say; anything in surplus of that is between you and God. I am not your enemy; somebody else is. Harry
I'm a born again Christian and I can promise you every time that I sin I am very conscious of it! I'm aware of it and I am made aware of it by the Holy spirit that dwells within me. It's called conviction! for someone to say we have no more consciousness of sin once we are saved is for someone to say that they don't have Christ in them at all. They are walking in a deceived lifestyle believing they are what they really are not. If you're not conscious of sin, it's because you're walking in a sinful lifestyle, which means you haven't given your heart to Christ, because if you had, you would be changed. Renewed. Made fresh. You would no longer want to do those things. Therefore when you did do them, you would be conscious of them. We are not conscious of sin whenever we are in sin because it is second nature to us. In other words, we do it so often that we are unfazed by the feeling of regret, remorse, fear or sorrow. We feel nothing because we are unaware of it. It is just who and what we are and therefore we are unconscious of it because to us it's just natural. once you become a born-again Christian, On the other hand, anytime you slip and begin to sin, the Holy Spirit makes you conscious of it to convict you of your wrongdoing. Jehovah God allows this so that you can grow in your grace walk with Christ!
Amen, brother... I completely agree... The ideology of being sin-free comes from a misunderstanding of the chronology of Scripture. "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." 1Jhn 1:8 "but sin that dwells within me." Rom 7:20 "Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own." Phil 3:12 The text tells us that once sin is removed completely, we will no longer be aware of it because we will be perfect. This has not occurred yet, but it occurs after all enemies are placed at Christ's feet. At which point there will no longer be an offering for sin. Christ's sacrifice is still available to us. We should very much be conscious of our sin today. And this has nothing to do with class separation. Joshua
Amen Brother Josh! The fullness of times has not yet occurred or Christ would have come in the clouds and resurrected his church blameless and whole, glorified in their bodies just as he is glorified in his body! Until then we press on to reach that goal of perfection and to be made whole. And how can we do that if we are unconscious of sin in our lives? We can't grow if we don't know where we need to grow at now can we? And we know from the Word of God that there is none that are good. And if there are none that are good, then they're certainly is none that are perfect, which means we all need to grow and we all need to know where we need to grow in order to make that growth possible. We must be conscious of sin now so that we can learn abort and abstain from it to reach perfection in Christ!
I could not have said it better, brother... Humbleness is the key... We deceive ourselves otherwise, believing we are already perfect. That is impossible in this present state. "But when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away." 1Cor 13:10 "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," Rom 3:23 "And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ." Phil 1:6 Joshua