Sacrifices & Sin

Discussion in 'Bible Prophecy' started by Joshuastone7, Jun 16, 2024.

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    PaulAche

    PaulAche Guest

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    Ok, I don't mind if we use YOUR cherry picked structure of the verse. It doesn't change anything from what I posted but rather strengthens it.

    "For by one offering he perfects for all time those sanctified."


    Assuming? I believe the timestamp as you say is right there in the verse you prefer. It states "for by one offering", which would obviously be the offering Jesus Christ gave of himself. From that moment on, the holy ones were sanctified in perfection. There is no question regarding the when, as his act was the timestamp which 'for all time' sanctified the holy ones. If they are not perfected in sanctification yet, then can it truly be said 'for all time"?



    It is questionable why you would take my original quote completely out of context by leaving out the rest of what was written. It is an intellectually dishonest way of discussing matters, and I will not participate with discussions with you if you do so.

    As you can see from my original post, I never stated Paul was perfect, but rather was seen by Jehovah as perfect "even though they are not" yet perfect.



    The end of the ages Paul is speaking about is the age which came prior to Jesus Christ. The age wherein the Mosaic law was still in effect. He is not referring to the end of the world when Jesus manifests himself to the holy ones a second time, but rather the end of the ages wherein the nation of Israel was in a covenant relationship with Jehovah.

    (Ga 4:4) “But when the full limit of the time arrived, God sent forth his Son, who came to be out of a woman and who came to be under law,”

    (1Pe 1:20) “True, he was foreknown before the founding of the world, but he was made manifest at the end of the times for the sake of YOU”. Notice it says 'was' not 'will be', showing that the end of the times spoken here is referring to his coming to earth for the sake of the holy ones.

    (1Pe 3:18) “Why, even Christ died once for all time concerning sins, a righteous [person] for unrighteous ones, that he might lead YOU to God, he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit.”​

    Hebrews 9 begins “. . .For its part, then, the former covenant . . .” showing that Hebrews 9 is talking about the old(end of ages) and then the new.

    Paul then transitions from old(ages/times) to new(age/times)

    Heb 9:11 states “. . .However, when Christ came as a high priest of the good things that have come to pass, through the greater and more perfect tent not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. . .” A new age had started, one under the new covenant (Heb 9:15) “. . .So that is why he is a mediator of a new covenant. . .”

    Hebrews 9 goes on further stating that “. . .For a covenant is valid over dead victims, since it is not in force at any time while the human covenanter is living.”

    Had Paul physically died yet? No, obviously he wrote Hebrews. Paul was still imperfect, but in Gods eyes his sins had been forgiven and he had been sanctified as holy. How?

    (Ro 6:3-7) “. . .Or do YOU not know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we were buried with him through our baptism into his death, in order that, just as Christ was raised up from the dead through the glory of the Father, we also should likewise walk in a newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we shall certainly also be united with him in the likeness of his resurrection; 6 because we know that our old personality was impaled with him, that our sinful body might be made inactive, that we should no longer go on being slaves to sin. 7 For he who has died has been acquitted from his sin.”

    Paul knew he was not perfect yet, this is obvious by his statement “. . .Not that I have already received it or am already made perfect. . .” The holy ones wont be made completely perfect until they die and go to heaven. However, their symbolic death through baptism allows them to be a part of the new covenant, and to be declared righteous in Gods eyes. Jehovah no longer sees their sin for they have been acquitted from it symbolically when they were buried with Christ in their baptism.

    If a person is patterned after the 'image' of Jesus Christ, would it make sense that they are seen as imperfect by Jehovah? Or another way to ask the same question: If the holy ones sins have not been taken away yet, how is it that they are in the 'image' of Jesus Christ?

    (Ro 8:28-30) “. . .Now we know that God makes all his works cooperate together for the good of those who love God, those who are the ones called according to his purpose; 29 because those whom he gave his first recognition he also foreordained to be patterned after the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 Moreover, those whom he foreordained are the ones he also called; and those whom he called are the ones he also declared to be righteous. Finally those whom he declared righteous are the ones he also glorified.”​

    Just as Jesus was perfect while on earth, so too the holy ones will be perfect in Gods eyes, patterned after the image of his son. Through Jesus Christs blood these holy ones receive the undeserved kindness of this blessing as being perfect, even though they are not. How else could they be the firstfruits if they had spots of sin upon them?

    (Jas 1:18) “. . .Because he willed it, he brought us forth by the word of truth, for us to be certain firstfruits of his creatures.”​

    (Re 14:4-5) “. . .These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, 5 and no falsehood was found in their mouths; they are without blemish.”​





     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2024
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Greetings,

    I don't "cherry-pick" any scripture. I use the original Greek and then copy any translation that closely matches the original language, of which I utilize dozens. Since I only go by the Greek, the translation is irrelevant and only used for an English version.

    However, I translated Heb 10:14 word for word from the Greek, and didn't use a translation. If you agree, I would prefer to only use and quote the Greek in our discussion. If that's good with you, I would very much prefer that. We can write out the original Greek and then each words literal English translation, like I did with Heb 10:14.

    If you don't believe me or trust my translation, look it up for yourself. Here's the Interlinear: Click (Heb 10:14)

    Again, my understanding only comes from the original Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew.

    PaulAche, Christ's sacrifice also applies to everyone before His time and after. You live today, so when were you made perfect, 2000 years ago? Huh? lol

    "For by one offering," retroactively applies to everyone before and after Christ's sacrifice.

    There is nothing in that scripture that tells you when He makes anyone perfect by His offering. Just like I said.

    If I tell you, "The money I make is for the whole household." That doesn't mean I made the money nor spent it that very moment. If His wording leaves open the time stamp, you cannot assume.

    This is Communication Psychology 101.

    Yes.... When Jesus' sacrifice perfects EVERYONE, they will be perfect "forever."

    I never said you said Paul was perfect. You are assuming something that did not exist. I simply made a counter point.

    Nothing I said was dishonest, for I was only speaking for myself. Did I say, "You said?" Nope... I can speak for myself; so I'll ask again: Did I say you said it? You don't speak for me.

    You sure do a lot of assuming, like me being autistic, when you couldn't understand what I was saying...lol

    No one can make you feel anything; you choose to feel the way you do. You hurt your own feelings... ;)

    They are not perfect, but they are to Jehovah? It's my personal opinion that this gibberish is meaningless dribble made up in your own head.

    If you say so.... You do you... That's the cool thing about life, we're all able to have our own opinions.

    The "consummation of ages" is the end of all ages. Read the original Greek.

    Yep, they are perfect invisibly, just like the WT says the kingdom has come invisibly.

    Look, we'll agree to disagree... You do you..

    We're obviously not going to persuade eachother, and that's not what this forum is about; it's only for presenting one's views. And I completely understand your position as presented. I thought exactly as you on this subject for decades. Trust me, I'm familiar with it.

    Joshua
     
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    Harry

    Harry Member

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    "This very tent is an illustration for the appointed time that is now here, and in keeping with it both gifts and sacrifices are offered. However, these are not able to make the man doing sacred service perfect as respects his conscience." Heb 9:9

    "But now he has manifested himself once for all time at the conclusion of the systems of things to put sin away through the sacrifice of himself." Heb 9:26

    "For since the Law has a shadow of the good things to come, but not the very substance of the things, men can never with the same sacrifices from year to year which they offer continually make those who approach perfect. 2 Otherwise, would the sacrifices not have stopped being offered, because those rendering sacred service who had been cleansed once for all time would have no consciousness of sins anymore?" Heb 10:1,2

    If what you say is true, then Paul, who wrote the above, doesn't have 'Christ in him at all.'

    "Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him." 1 Joh 3:6 NKJV

    "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God." 1 Joh 3:9 NKJV

    "We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him." 1 Joh 5:18 NKJV

    "But now he has manifested himself once for all time at the conclusion of the systems of things to put sin away through the sacrifice of himself." Heb 9:26


    Harry
     
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    Harry

    Harry Member

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    " . . . keep working out YOUR own salvation with fear and trembling." Phil 2:12

    Paul seemed to have had the same problem as I.

    Wrong. The time Christ manifested Himself the first time was to put sin away through the sacrifice of Himself, which was 2000 years ago, because Paul then links this to the 'second time He appears' where there will be no more putting away of sin.


    Harry
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    "He has," does not appear in the Greek.

    And here I thought people could keep from sin even before Christ. Keeping from sinning after Christ is different?

    "If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is contrary to you, but you must rule over it.” Gen 4:7

    "Be angry, yet do not sin; on your bed, search your heart and be still." Psm 4:4

    The Old was a shadow of what was fulfilled in Christ. The curtains, the Alter, the Laver, the Holy, and the Most Holy became realities in Christ. These implements in the Old all represented something specific in the New.

    Just FYI...

    Can you do me a favor and define what consciousness means to you? And are you on board with PaulAche that Paul wasn't perfect, but in Jehovah's eyes, he was? Just curious...

    Nobody's obviously going to sway anyone here, so let's just focus on sharing insights without the contentiousness. What do ya say? I'm sure we can find a way to just express personal insights without resulting to arguments from a position of authority.

    Joshua
     
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    Roland Brown

    Roland Brown New Member

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    If you'll notice, he's not saying that sin is put away with no more consciousness of it. He's saying that if this was true that the sacrifices were good, they would still continue and we would have no consciousness of sin.

    But because Christ, the king of glory died for us that we could live; if we say we live in him, and if we do sin, you're right, we are no longer the one who sins, It is the flesh which we dwell in that sins.

    the apostle Paul's words, " it is the sin nature that dwells within me that sins and not I. For with the flesh serve I the law of sin, but with the spirit serve I the law of Christ."

    But we are conscious of it. Otherwise he would not have said the things I want to do I do not, and the things that I don't want to do are the things I do. Oh wretched Man that I am who will save me from myself? Praise be to God it is through Christ!

    now, If he's not conscious of his sins, how can he say that he's doing what he don't want and not doing what he does want to? it's conviction. Read your Bible a little more my friend

    Yes, Jesus sacrificed did take away the power of sin once for all time. True enough. I agree.

    but that does not mean that we are made perfect. It means that we are in the process of being made perfect. And that process continues till the day of Resurrection. Until then, sin will abound, but Grace will much more abound!

    I consider it a blessing to be conscious of sin because it allows me to find my weak spots and allow Christ to strengthen me in them and build me up a more holy habitation for the Spirit of God.

    In my opinion, this is the very nature and essence of perfection, allowing the Holy Spirit to convict you of your wrongs and convince you that you need to change and then allowing Him to change you through obedience to His Word!

    Without consciousness of sins, we can't have this pleasure of growing in perfection because we just go along doing whatever we want. Caring less if it's good or bad, because we have no idea if it's good or not.
     
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    PaulAche

    PaulAche Guest

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    It seems this thread and the other I was posting on are talking essentially about the same thing, so i will move my comments to this thread.
    _______________________________________________________
    All of us are half flesh/half spirit. When talking of perfection we are thus talking about perfection in two distinct ways. Fleshly and spiritually. For the chosen who are still imperfect in their flesh, they have been given a new birth, one in which the spiritual part of them, as a 'new creation', are perfect in Gods eyes through the blood of Jesus Christ. They are thus the 'image' of their brother Jesus Christ who is perfect.

    (Ro 8:29-30) “. . .because those whom he gave his first recognition he also foreordained to be patterned after the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 Moreover, those whom he foreordained are the ones he also called; and those whom he called are the ones he also declared to be righteous.. . .”​

    Of course, coming to terms with that notion that our spirit has been made perfect, from an imperfect past is not an easy thing to accept, as we see Paul had a difficult time coming to terms with the incredible gift that Jehovah had given him. The physical and the spiritual are pulled in two different directions. The sinful flesh pulled him in the direction he did not want to go, while his perfect spirit guided him to learn what it means to be perfect spiritually.

    The chosen are given a clean spirit, perfect in Gods eyes, but that does not mean that those who receive it are able to fully contemplate the depth of the gift they have been given yet. It is a learning process to understand what that gift to them truly entails.

    For example, consider that you have been given the perfect tool. You have never seen something like this tool before because all the tools you have are imperfect. This tool does many things that you have never seen before, so you must learn to use it. Fortunately the tool comes with instructions, so that you can grow in knowledge and understanding of how to use it, the more you use it.

    When speaking God's wisdom in a sacred secret, Paul begins with "now we speak wisdom among those who are mature,"(1 Cor 2:6). Interestingly the literal word for mature is 'perfect'. Thus, Paul was speaking wisdom among those who are perfect in Gods eyes. Again, was he speaking to them in the physical nature of perfection, or the spiritual nature? Obviously, he was speaking about spiritual matters with spiritual words (1Cor 2:11)

    Exactly, we are growing 'in perfection'. If one is a chosen vessel of God, his responsibility is to learn how to live within that perfection while at the same time producing the fruitages of the spirit. Adam, although perfect in both physical and spiritual natures, did not learn how to do this. Whereas the holy ones will walk in that perfection by the good works they display.

    (Eph 2:10) “. . .For we are a product of his work and were created in union with Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared in advance for us to walk in them.”

    (1Pe 1:23) “. . .For YOU have been given a new birth, not by corruptible, but by incorruptible [reproductive] seed, through the word of [the] living and enduring God.”
     
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    Harry

    Harry Member

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    Great illustration; you are explaining the truth of the gospel better than I can, cheers.


    Harry
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    The problem is if sin has already been taken away, and you have been made perfected (by any definition), you no longer have a sacrifice for sin. If you sin, you are not forgiven and will not make it. Are you saying you live a perfect life?

    "Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin." Heb 10:18

    Also, I say His sacrifice retroactively takes away sins in the future. If sin was taken away 2000 years ago (as you hold), how does that apply to you living 2000 years later? When exactly were your sins removed? Before you existed and sinned? Surely, you claim you came to Christ at some point, so your sin would have to be removed after such a point and not before. Correct?

    "You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world." Eph 2:2

    Joshua
     
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    PaulAche

    PaulAche Guest

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    You stated 'he has' does not appear in the Greek for Hebrews 9:26


    Actually 'he has' DOES appear in the Greek. Here is the link for this.

    upload_2024-6-30_21-10-46.png

    Here is another from biblos.com. Here is the link for this as well.


    upload_2024-6-30_21-4-7.png
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2024
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    PaulAche, respectfully your response demonstrates a lack of knowledge. But that's okay, I'll explain.

    That is an interpretive English translation of a single Greek word. That is not the original Greek. Have you never opened an Interlinear? You need to click on the number "5319" to understand the word's definition.

    The Greek word is phaneroó. It means appear, make known, visible, manifest.

    Besides, I objected to Harry's translation that added "he has" to the beginning of the scripture, which made it seem like "he has" already removed sin.

    Regardless, I have no issue with the manifestation being His first appearance when sacrificed, but I emphatically argue against the text indicating personal sins were taken away at the same time.

    Here is a literal Greek to English translation.

    "Now, however, once in the consummation of the ages for putting away sin by the sacrifice of himself he's manifested."

    The underlined words are the ones I have added that don't appear in the original Greek. The only reason I added "he's" is to indicate who is manifested. If I were to add "he has been," that would be adding a time stamp for when I believed the manifestation took place. God's Word can speak for itself.

    Again, I don't have a problem with the text indicating His manifestation was 2000 years ago. I have a problem with anyone saying the text indicates their sin was removed, they were made perfect, and their consciousness was cleansed 2000 years ago before they existed or even before repentance.

    Christ's sacrifice is retroactive based on faith. Only if one is repentant does our Lord's sacrifice apply to them, at which point sin is forgiven. (1Jhn 1:9) Then, once all enemies are placed at our Lord's feet (which has not occurred yet—Heb 2:8), sin is removed, and His sacrifice is no longer offered.

    Joshua

    PS: Here is the chronology of when sin is removed.

     

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