Saturday, January 16

Discussion in 'Daily Text' started by Jinnvisible, Jan 11, 2021.

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    Jinnvisible

    Jinnvisible Experienced Member

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    Saturday, January 16

    I saw . . . a great crowd
    . . . standing before the throne and before the Lamb


    Rev. 7:9.

    In 1935, Jehovah’s Witnesses came to realize that the great crowd do not literally have to be in heaven to stand “before the throne and before the Lamb.” Rather, their position is figurative. Even though they would live on earth, the great crowd could stand “before the throne” by recognizing Jehovah’s authority and by submitting to his sovereignty. (Isa. 66:1)

    They could stand “before the Lamb” by exercising faith in Jesus’ ransom sacrifice. Similarly, at Matthew 25:31, 32, “all the nations”—including the wicked—are said to be “gathered before” Jesus on his glorious throne. Clearly, all these nations are, not in heaven, but on earth.


    This adjusted understanding makes sense. It explains why the Bible does not say that the great crowd is raised to heaven. Only one group is promised everlasting life in heaven—the 144,000, who will “rule as kings over the earth” with Jesus.—Rev. 5:10.

    w19.09 28 ¶9
     
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    Jinnvisible

    Jinnvisible Experienced Member

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    Its is, in my view, a good commentary although it does make an unneccesary distinction.

    The detailing of what was accepted in 1935 is understood.The understanding changed from both parties being in the same realm.

    Having one party in the physical realm; standing before another party residing in the spritual realm, does not neccesarlly equate to 'the figurative', 'poetic' or 'metaphorical'. Many times recorded in scripture physical people are literally before spiritual beings by coming into proximity. Moses was literally before Jehovah on the mountain.

    Metaphorical or Metaphysical. The margin is not defined by earthly man.



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    Timothy Kline

    Timothy Kline New Member

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    Hi there, Jinnvisible,

    The board admin has graciously allowed me to re-register here but I don't know how much I will be able to contribute to the ongoing discussions as I have very little time these days for posting and prefer to spend what little time I do have in personal study and with my missus. Too, my personal views, hope, and beliefs have changed a great deal from those I formerly espoused— which is certainly enough to cause me pause when it comes to pontificating on ANYthing, lol! I can only choke down so much crow for views I previously argued for and clung to. . . only to discover that, like Jon Snow, I know nothing.

    I am likewise reluctant to establish doctrines on snippets such as the Watchtower's daily text uses, preferring to establish the context: If one takes in the context of the snippet, then Revelation 7:1 places the "144,000" upon the earth and not in heaven, as noted by the four angels standing at the four corners of the earth (not heaven) preceding the marking. Revelation 7:4 establishes the simultaneous (not a progressive) sealing of the "144,000" (setting aside that the "144,000" are explicitly from "every tribe of the children of Israel").

    John does not note a change in location when he sees the "great multitude" standing before the Lamb, so any suggestion otherwise would require going beyond what was written. In fact, there is not a change in location until Revelation 7:11, when the (scene) shifts to heaven and the throne, as evidenced by a distinction made between being "before the throne" (Earth) and "around the throne" (Heaven).

    Just some observations, submitted for perusal and consideration,
    —Timothy
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2021 at 7:14 PM
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Hey brother,

    As we've previously spoken of, these discussions give me the desire and (sometimes) reason to study more often... You would be surprised how many times I've learned something new just from a discussion that I've had a million times.

    As well, we encourage each other when we don't forsake our gathering together. This place can serve as a Christian gathering place in order to remind each other we are not alone in the wilderness. Sometimes we encourage others without even knowing it.

    I've really tried to focus on not caring any longer to changes someone's mind in Scripture, but to rather offer a differing view. I need those differing views from others; otherwise, how would I know I'm right? lol... I'm kidding of course... But really, there are countless times I've been in the process of studying to respond to someone on here only to find I was completely changing what I thought I knew along the way. As you said, I've learned more about what I don't know than I had ever imagined I would...

    It is my belief that our discussions serve as gathering together and to sharpen one another's continence in order to endure this old system. Sometimes I just need to remind myself Christian fellowship is not always about me, and that I need to step out of my comfort zone in order to help encourage others. And that is more often than not through disagreement, as well...

    Just my summation... :)

    All Christian love through the Christ...
     
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    Jinnvisible

    Jinnvisible Experienced Member

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    Timothy Hi !

    I was just wondering about you the other day. Great to see a ray of sunshine. Hope you & Mrs Kline are doing well.

    Not sure what the government is thinking with the lockdowns re:small buisiness owners. Thinking is probably the wrong word.

    Always good to hear your thoughts.

    The Revelation, much of it is still a mystery to the watchtower they just dont have the sense that it is. Half of what they have on it is plain wrong. The apostles never even heard the number 144k. [This must mean interpretive valuation or misevaluation of it is not really making a person subject to destruction.]

    I agree mostly with thier take on it so probably Im a cold comfort to a ray of sunshine. The 'other sheep' text is definately a wholesale misuse.

    Frankly I'd rather be a sasquatch in the judgement of christ than a governing body guy. and that includes whether they exist or not.
     
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    Timothy Kline

    Timothy Kline New Member

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    We are, thank you! Jehovah has blessed us in innumerable ways for nearly a quarter century now (in spite of early attempts by sisters in our former congregation working hard to get Deb to leave and divorce me when I went "apostate" back there in the way-back— until Deb got tired of the haranguing and finally left off from the meetings and the organization). That's not to say we've always lived upon a bed of roses, but there is no mistaking the role our heavenly Father has played in our lives both individually as well as as husband and wife. If anything, I have grown into appreciating the love Christ has for his bride, the [church], or body of believers.

    LOL, my thoughts and a penny may still get you a pony ride at your local Meijer store. :p

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    By the way, much appreciation from this small corner of the universe for your continuing posting of these Daily Texts here on the forum all these years, Jinnvisible.

    —Timothy
     

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