Tartarus?

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Utuna, Feb 26, 2013.

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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Can you explain how it can be that in 325 during the Nicaea council both hell fire of "extreme punishment", immortality of the soul and as well the books of the modern bible were chosen by the same men as official beliefs, but yet they left out a book because it disagreed with their officially adopted doctrines, when you say it agrees with it?
     
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    Diagonal

    Diagonal Guest

    Jehovahisgod,

    Peter, writing under inspiration, tells us that God already banished
    the angels that
    sinned into tartarus, to be chained in gloomy darkness
    until the day
    of judgment.

    Since angels are spirit creatures, tartarus does not need to be a geographical
    place, but could refer to a spiritual condition of debasement, or a demoting
    of them to a lower dimension of existence.

    At any rate, those angels who sinned were at that time already in
    tartarus and didn’t seem to mind the demotion of status and revoking
    of their security clearance, so to speak,

    but were really worried about
    the day of judgment, which they thought
    had arrived when Jesus drove
    them out of the hapless people they
    were inhabiting.


    As a more general note, the demons being smart, and knowing that
    death is just peaceful, eternal non-existence, are clearly in terror of
    something else, and in addition to merely losing their life as such,

    and that is having to face the righteous wrath of God and of the Lamb,
    and the day of vengeance and retribution of our God.
     
  3. Hi diagonal:

    If these spirit creatures, spoken of by Peter, Quote "tells us that God already banished
    the angels that sinned into tartarus, to be chained in gloomy darkness
    until the day of judgment?." End Quote Then how did they get out to possess
    the people that they were in when Quote "Jesus drove them out of the hapless people they
    were inhabiting." end quote!? Did they get a weekend pass from the Almighty?

    frank
     
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    Diagonal

    Diagonal Guest

    Frank,

    yeah, I like your sense of humour; but I think the solution to this
    question lies either in that the tartarus condition did not preclude
    those pre-flood angels from ‘inhabiting’ people as they did,

    or else, there might have been additional angels falling away in the
    time of Christ who for some reason were not yet confined to
    this ‘place’ or condition.

    Also, it seems that demon possession was, or seemed to be, more
    prevalent in those days than it is today, so perhaps those angels
    had further restrictions laid upon them as time went on.

    At any rate, they did not seem to mind terribly much being in their
    debased and restricted condition when they chanced upon Jesus.

     
  5. Hi Diagonal:

    I wasn't kidding. Either they were " chained in gloomy darkness
    until the day of judgment." in another dimension, Or, they were possessing humans on earth
    in our dimension, they can't do both at the same time. What scripture do you use for this
    line of reasoning or was the answer just revealed to you personally by the
    Holy Spirit? Or did it just sound right at the time? Or did they have a choice
    in the matter, as if God would say you can choose a lengthy stay in Tartarus
    where it's dark and gloomy, or you can inhabit one of these poor saps here on
    earth. Regardless of how that is decided, how do they decide who to inhabit?
    What scripture or what reasoning do you use for that argument? I wrote something
    in response without thinking through what I was saying is an acceptable answer.
    You are quite eloquent with words at times, but at others it appears you are just
    speaking off the top of your head without thinking. I have done that once or twice
    myself. Is that what happened? Be honest and forthright!

    Just wondering?

    frank
     
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    jehovahisgod

    jehovahisgod Experienced Member

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    yup their are some valid points here! the demons are afraid of something besides death! and the council of nicea who made the choices back them were under guidence from who? certainly not god as they made many reckless arbitrary choices to support their own positions! guys its such a cluster fornication party! thats why geting our minds on anything other than jesus and our service to him today. gives me hives! people can speculate and wonder till the cows give chocolate milk and their will not come any truth...and let get this straight! there is a hell! we LIVE in it today,we are condeemed to foreever pine for the new order that we will never see, because we all died years ago,and went to judgement and were sentanced here! muahahaha!
     
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    Diagonal

    Diagonal Guest

    Frank,

    I would have thought that you could tell by the tone of my reply and by my
    giving a few POSSIBLE reasons to account for this discrepancy, that I was not
    making definitive statements or assertions on this matter.

    If I sound vague like this, it is usually for the reason that I am at a loss to make
    sense of something, or am struggling to adequately reconcile two seemingly
    contradictory positions, which taken by themselves I know to be true.

    You make the assertion that either the demons are in tartarus OR they
    were able to possess people here on earth; then you conclude that they
    cannot do both.

    Therefore, according to you, was Peter mistaken when he said that they
    were in tartarus, or did Jesus just put on a show of throwing fake demons
    out of people?

    So since you seem to have the answer to that, I would like
    to know, please. I am serious too, because someone just
    might have the right Scripture for this.
     
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    Tsaphah

    Tsaphah Experienced Member

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    Let me jump into the dialogue, and give some information I have read. I must take the position of what is stated by Adam Clarke, “The tradition of their fall is in all countries and in all religions, but the accounts given are various and contradictory; and no wonder, for we have no direct revelation on the subject. They kept not their first estate, and they sinned, is the sum of what we know on the subject; and here curiosity and conjecture are useless.â€

    The most important thing here is to find what Peter had in mind when he made this statement about Tartarus. This is the only place in the bible where this word, tartaro’o (pronounced tar-tar-oh’oh) appears, nor does it appear in the Septuagint. We find that Peter is in agreement with Jude on this subject. (Jude 1:6-7) Peter and Jude are not speaking of a physical or spiritual place here on earth. It is a condition. Jude uses Sodom and Gomorrah as an example “by undergoing the judicial punishment of everlasting fire.†This is where people get confused. They (even so-called bible scholars) confuse the Greek terms . Let’s take the first term used by Peter. In order to understand the word, we have to see it in context of the surrounding words and the point that Peter is making. What is the idea being spoken of? Judgment of those who deliberately disobey God. When does this judgment occur? Sometimes in the past, and in the future. (Jude 1:6) People make assumptions that Hell, Hades, Gehenna/Geenna, Tartarus/Tartaroo, are the same. They are only the same because they are associated with a fire that never goes out. Or, as some believe, they will suffer in this fire forever/eternity.

    Why are these Greek words all translated into 17[SUP]th[/SUP] century English as Hell if they are not the same? Why do people think they are the same. If angels are spirits, how does a physical fire destroy them? (Rev. 20:10) As Clarke states, “The tradition of their fall is in all countries and in all religions, but the accounts given are various and contradictory;†Well, if we study with prayer and an honest heart, we gain understanding of God’s word. Is Tartarus/Tartaro’o the same as the abyss? (Rev. 20:1-3) In both cases the word chains are used. But, they are different Greek words. It really doesn’t matter which Greek words are used; it is the thought that they are restrained from activity. No matter whether on earth or in heaven. The Greek word, seira (see-rah), and translated as chains, is only used by Peter. The word used by John and others is, halusis. (Rev. 20:1) What is interesting about halusis is that it is used in connection with demon possessed humans that were able to break them. (Mr. 5:1-4; Lu. 8:29) Maybe seira is made of stronger material. Maybe kryptonite.
    :cool:

    But watch out for this chain. It will get a good grip on you, and it's stronger than kryptonite.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRNleKBDCNw

    Tsaphah
     

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