The '120 in the upper room' never happened.

This startling fact comes to us straight from the Bible.

And the 'governing body' of watchtower is aware of this.

 

I was hoping somebody would require me to qualify the statement.
Call me out on it.

I suppose I was 'preaching to the choir' and everyone already knows that the Pentecostal-originated/Watchtower-accepted doctrine of the 120 getting the HS with its variant twists is a falsehood and easily disproved by the Bible.

Except that while the Pents do the garbled speech thing, the Watchtower does not.

 

Hi Apocalypse,

I am confused about your thought here.

Do you not believe that the holy spirit came and set as tongues of fire on the 120?

Jesus told his apostles and disciples to wait in Jerusalem for the promised holy spirit. Do you not believe that happened?

Maybe I am dense and have missed something here.

Please explain what you mean.

Joe

 

I thought I was pretty clear. "The '120 in the upper room' never happened."
And I said that because "This startling fact comes to us straight from the Bible."

But if one insists it did, then one could answer a few questions.

Do we accept these verses?

Deut. 10:17 For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God, who is not partial and takes no bribe.
Acts 10:34 Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.​

In the account of the events of Pentecost, there is recorded that Jews from at least 19 different language groups had journeyed there for Pentecost. Possibly many more, but 19 are specifically mentioned.

How is it that only those from Galilee received the outpouring? Was God showing partiality?


Belongtojah siad "Jesus told his apostles and disciples to wait in Jerusalem for the promised holy spirit." I never read that in the Bible.

 

Hi Apocalypse,

Here it is:
Acts 1:
4 And while he was meeting with them he gave them the orders: “Do not withdraw from Jerusalem, but keep waiting for what the Father has promised, about which YOU heard from me; 5 because John, indeed, baptized with water, but YOU will be baptized in holy spirit not many days after this.”

Acts 2:
Now while the day of the [festival of] Pentecost was in progress they were all together at the same place, 2 and suddenly there occurred from heaven a noise just like that of a rushing stiff breeze, and it filled the whole house in which they were sitting. 3 And tongues as if of fire became visible to them and were distributed about, and one sat upon each one of them, 4 and they all became filled with holy spirit and started to speak with different tongues, just as the spirit was granting them to make utterance.

If one teaches something different than what is in scripture should we listen to them?

1John 2:
26 These things I write YOU about those who are trying to mislead YOU. 27 And as for YOU, the anointing that YOU received from him remains in YOU, and YOU do not need anyone to be teaching YOU; but, as the anointing from him is teaching YOU about all things, and is true and is no lie, and just as it has taught YOU, remain in union with him. 28 So now, little children, remain in union with him, that when he is made manifest we may have freeness of speech and not be shamed away from him at his presence.

There is a good reason that Jehovah anoints whom he wants and not according to what men think.

Have a blessed day.

Joe

 

Perfect summary post BTJ!

Jehovah isn't being partial by choosing; to state otherwise is an (IMO) wrong understanding of what "partial" means in these instances!

 

Sorry I've been gone awhile ... It's tax time and I had quite a few to do.

I highlighted a word. It is false teaching. It never happened.

That one word is the foundation for everything else you posted, ...posting which lends nothing to your argument.
The tongues of fire did not appear on any supposed 120. Simply posting a bible verse does not establish what you teach. In fact, the bible tells us the names of they who received the tongues and the ability to be understood in many languages.

Please study more.

 

Please enlighten us!

 

It would really be a breath of fresh air to actually talk about what the Scriptures say and put all the assumptions in the trash heap.
However, what I find is that people are really not interested in what the Scriptures teach. People favour their long-held comfortable ideas.

Such being the case, they bail when it comes effort time.

In the face of overwhelming evidence, the majority pull out the straw man arguments, then the red herrings. Then they just call you names. Then they disappear.

It's like trying to talk about what the Bible really teaches about the Father-Son relationship when talking to a staunch Trinitarian.

I am sure that almost everyone on this board would turn up their nose at the Trinity and anyone who would try to establish it.
But then the vast majority of 'Christians' (including most here) would stick to the 120 in the upper room falsehood as vehemently as a Trinitarian would stick to the Trinity.

And if you told them that they were doing, (with the 120 thing), the same thing as a Trinitarian does with the Trinity, they would attempt to nail you to a cross.

I don't argue with people. If people are closed minded and hardened in their own thinking, then I move on.

I find most are like that. I've been on many boards and I have yet to find persons who are willing to make the effort to open their mind to a new possibility, open to the chance that they have had a wrong idea stuck in their head for a long time.

It takes humility to acknowledge that we were wrong, or had been deceived, or harboured a misconception for years.

For organizations, like Watchtower, it's IMPOSSIBLE.

New wine... into old wineskins? No. It's can't be done.

I would love to talk about what the Bible teaches, and 'enlighten'.

I just don't see it happening.

If you want to, you can find the truth yourself. You don't need me. Who am I?

I found the truth of it, with only my best friend and fellow Christian brother beside me ...and of course the Holy Spirit.

I have posted in the manner that I have because I do not wish to make earnest effort before those who do not care.

If people care, they will participate in the process.

(Instead, it's like walking up the down escalator. They fight you. They so desperately want to cling to their old comfy ideas, no matter what, that it's like Paul said, striking the wind.)

On the off chance that some soul here is willing to engage with it;
* I WILL ask some questions to see if some juices will flow.
** I will NOT just lay out my pearls to be trampled.

1) How did the 3000 plus persons who heard Peter speak at Pentecost -and were subsequently baptized- possibly hear Peter's discourse while he spoke in an upstairs room of a residential home? (Watchtower has never offered an explanation for this but in way of an explanation offered, in a Watchtower study article years ago, a drawing of Peter on a balcony, speaking to the crowd down below, much like the Pope on his own balcony in the Vatican)

2) Where did they baptize this large number of people on the same day? (Jewish religious leaders present)

3) If a "large upper room" was needed for the Passover, as per Jesus' request, and they were only 13 persons to attend, then how large would the room have to be for more than TEN TIMES that many persons? (120 plus the Apostles)

4) How was it possible for a first-century Jewish home to have an upper room that would support 12 tons of human meat? (175lbs X (120+12))/2000lbs) (Google "balcony collapse too many people" and remember these balconies were constructed with steel and concrete which was not available 2000yrs ago)

These are just some of the questions that have plagued real bible students for many years. Non Bible students don't care. They just hurl some words at it and move on.

All these questions and a dozen more have answers.

And the most import thing of all is this, the Bible answers all the questions. With no room for doubt.

Unless you selectively throw Scripture verses in the trash, there's no way out. The truth stands tall.

These questions are not the answer. They are the reason to look for it.

 

I expected as much.

 

Frank. You didn't waste any time with scarecrow or red herring arguments. You skipped right to the end and went for the name calling.
Shame on you.

 

Joe. You tried to support the 120 idea with these verses, but nowhere in these verses do the Scriptures (you site) mention any supposed 120 persons. So, I ask you to read the question that you posed, the one I bolded and enlarged. You are the one teaching heresy!

I will teach the Scriptures.

Acts of the APOSTLES
2:1 When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place.
2:5 Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven.
2:6 at this sound the multitude came together
2:9-11 Parthians and Medes and Elamites and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,
Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene,
both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians and visitors from Rome

2:14 But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them.
2:16 But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:
2: 17 ‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,'
2:41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.

My beliefs, about my Christian Brothers, who at Pentecost received the Spirit are based on the Gospel. You people can stick to your restrictive 120, unscriptural nonsense.

And by the way, where did all this take place?
Acts 2:46 And day by day, attending the temple.

 

I have been reading the account in multiple translations to understand what you are saying. I can admit that the account is mentioning "they" over a longer timeframe (couple of days), so whether it were 120 or only the 12 (2:14) who received the tongues of fire (or another number you might be thinking of), how does that compare us to believing in the trinity?
For me the most important fact of that account is that it happened. A group of people together received the tongues of fire and were able to speak in multiple languages which made a big impression on a lot of people at that time who became believers.
The exact number of the people together is not the key aspect of this. In 1:15 it's mentioning it were about 120 people. So maybe 119, 121 ...
If these numbers would have been important, than it could have given an exact number.

 

So Apo, would not it have been simpler if you had given your explanation in the beginning instead of telling us:
The '120 in the upper room' never happened. This startling fact comes to us straight from the Bible. And the 'governing body' of watchtower is aware of this.
and to make us feel illiterate?
And then, this is not a teaching of the only Watchtower, but of almost all Cristian's organization. So, why point the finger at the Watchtower?

 

Perhaps next time, you could try an approach like this: why not ask Frank why he holds that viewpoint and the scriptural explanations that go along with that?

Not everyone agrees with each other here on the forum. When members post information where they are able to lay out their points and then provide the scriptures and explanations that go with that, then that information can be discussed.

 

Thanks. I am glad to see that there's actually somebody out there.

I would like to address your remarks if I may.
(1) I have not given an explanation. I posted some bible verses. I sure would like to explain. I will not however explain to "the wind".
(2) I know from experience that the 'in your face' works better. I see Peter use it in Acts 2. It worked for him.
(3) Do I even have to say? The Watchtower claims to be "God's Channel" to all of Mankind. They claim to know better than everybody else. The GB claims to be "the GUARDIANS OF DOCTRINE" (quote from the AU Royal Commish) Supposedly the GB is correcting everybody else, the last bastion of 'truth' on Earth. I shouldn't even have to say this.

On top, it is the GB of JW that lays claim to fame by means of this very doctrine.

If you don't want me to think of you as "illiterate" then stop being such.

 

Watch your tone, please. I expect everyone on the forum to speak to each other in a civil manner.

I also find it ironic that you object to name-calling, just a few posts back. But now, you're indulging in name-calling in this post.

 

Do you really think that I'm going to stop right away what I'm doing and spend two hours making research and writing a thorough answer to you just to be treated like crap in return, like you just did with baruq ?

Your input is interesting, although there's nothing to write home about, but certainly not worth being insulted for. Given the way you have been communicating with others since you came "aboard", if you don't have answers to your posts, the key to the problem isn't in others...

Actually, I did make the research but will write a synthesis of it later this month...

 

All of whatever you want to call it, that I have cranked out here, is finally seeing results.

You mention Acts 1:15 and the 120 persons. You also mention "over a longer timeframe"

Are you aware of the dates involved? The account of the 120 persons in acts 1:15 does NOT say they were in an "upper room". And it was NOT Pentecost. And it was not the day of ascension described in verses 9-11

It was in fact several days prior to Pentecost and after the ascension.

As well, Luke describes perfectly where they were and it was not in an upper room somewhere, except that that "upper room" was their hotel room while visiting Jerusalem. And they would not have been obeying Christ's command if they stayed in their hotel room all day.

And the instruction to remain in Jerusalem was NOT given to 120 persons. It was given to the 11 and nobody else. As well the promise.

It was given on the day of ascension a week before Pentecost. And it was on that day, a week before Pentecost that the Eleven Apostles, "along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers." had retired to "the room where they were staying" to carry on prayer.

So, after the ascension "Then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy." after which, as Luke says.. "And they stayed continually at the temple, praising God." They were at the Temple, the "HOUSE OF MY FATHER" as Christ said.

So, being that the Apostles were "at the Temple continually", the events of Pentecost took place, not in some tiny upper room somewhere, but rather at the HOUSE OF GOD. Hence, it was no problem for thousands to hear Peter, thousands from all over the continent.