After getting some rest, I have re-read the account in Acts about the pouring out of the holy spirit. And personally, I see the need to re-think one thing, but not other things.

The believers ....possibly numbering 120 or so, as they met earlier in the 10-day period between Jesus' ascension and Pentecost...were the ones the Holy Spirit was poured out upon, and certainly this included the 11 Apostles, and the new one: Matthias.

Acts 1:12 mentions an upper room where the Apostles stayed; but does not say definitively that all the believers gathered up there at one time, in their routine meetings with Apostles.

So...like some said, the Bible does not say the 120 were in an upper room where the Apostles stayed during Pentecost.

Acts 2:1-4 "When the day of Pentecost came, all the believers were gathered together in one place. Suddenly there was a noise from the sky, which sounded like a strong wind blowing and it filled the whole house where they were staying. Then they saw what looked like tongues of fire spread out and touched each person there. They were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to talk in other languages , as the Spirit enabled them to speak."

Later, they moved out of the house into the streets, and surely the temple also, where likely , Peter gave his famous speech showing all...women, men, old and young, maidservants, too, would receive God's spirit and gifts thereof. Thus the visiting Jews and proselytes all got a totally miraculous witness about Christ at one time, and in a huge way.

This single event that occurred Pentecost day, jump-started Christianity, and continued to be replayed time and again for years afterward; Christians would hear the truth about Christ, and be filled with the Holy Spirit, as the Bible records.

Today, we also should do the same. But we cannot expect the same miracles they had. Other gifts, though, are occurring I believe...the dreams, and the true knowledge becoming abundant in these days we are living; the 'last days'...as Peter's preaching from Joel's writings prophesied.

"Day after day they met as a group in the temple , and they had their meals together in their homes, eating with glad and humble hearts, praising God and enjoying the good will of all the people. And every day the Lord added to their group those who were being saved." Acts 2:46,47

Now, Peter explained the believers had all received the holy spirit, and it was evident by the tongues of fire, and the speaking in the many languages of the Jews and proselytes from all over the inhabited earth gathered to worship Jehovah at Jerusalem for Pentecost. This witnessing to Jesus life, ministry and death was so important, that Christ caused a mega-miracle which aided all in attendance to hear in their particular language.

The intent of the miracle is clear, and more than one purpose is revealed;

God was with the Christians ( "all the believers"...which included Jesus' mother, and brothers...and no doubt all those 120 mentioned before..and possibly others, too..it doesn't specify '120' here), and doing miracles through them all, as was evident from the tongues of fire/witnessing in other languages.

God used the Apostles that day and thereafter ..." Many miracles and wonders were being done through the Apostles, and everyone was filled with awe." So, they began again doing as they had when with Jesus, healing, and so forth.

From the day of Pentecost, though, it was proven that people would be born again of God's spirit, and Acts contains proof that not only the 11 Apostles would be born again, but commoners.."all the believers", would be also. It became a common occurrence for those who were activated with God's spirit to demonstrate this by having this gift of speaking in a foreign tongue....as Acts repeatedly shows.

Paul, also writes extensively about gifts of the holy spirit ...beyond tongues... upon different members of the congregations ...again...all the believers....in other words, not merely the apostles.

This , receiving God's spirit, and miraculous powers along with it for all believers, definitely proved Christianity was true worship.

So....I see the need to change my thinking about where the spirit was poured out; not the upper room. But also on not just 120...which meeting occurred earlier in the week...and no doubt not in the 'upper room'...but in a house where they were staying..., , and the believers could start immediately spreading out into the city and the temple to witness for Christ.

 

Brother Apocalypse,

Thank you for focusing our attention on what and where this occurred.

You may read my understanding that all who believe in Christ should be born of the holy spirit, at the post, "What is the Good News of the Kingdom?"

I received this while I was a JW around 06, or 07, I forget the year now, but not the event.

I partook of the emblems at the Hall for two years. I received so much intense abuse from the brothers and sisters, about the anointing and the real gospel message I began preaching, that I had to resign, as I was considered an evil apostate. Eventually this ultimately contributed to my wife and my divorce . ...along with all family who are Witnesses, and former friends, of course.

I took a stand to witness to Bible truth , regardless what the consequences would be. And still we must do the same as Lord Jesus did, to have his blessing, and be used in his ministry, I do believe.

I am remarried, to another ex-JW whom I met online in my witnessing some 4 years ago. We have been married over 3 years now, and continue to read the word, and re-learn many new things.

Thank you for your thoughts here on Pentecost! I did learn something new.

 

John. Thank You for your fine effort. When I made the original post at the very beginning, it went ignored at first. And the first comments were not what I was looking for. Individuals who posted seemed sarcastic, as if they couldn't read. This is all too often the case with persons who have experienced long-time association with Watchtower. Take that for what it's worth as an observer.

But anyway, Christ said "I came to start a fire on the Earth, and look it has already been started". So, I was more interested in fanning the flames of Christ's fire than engaging in a vapid discussion.

I have noted your post and would like to address it systematically if you would allow.
Do not be annoyed.

I cut a little out of your post and placed a reference number. My comments below relate by number to each reference.

(1) Again, than You. Too many individuals are so focused on themselves, that they are unwilling to pick up that book with the view to learning something new. They already know it all, so what's to learn.

(2) This is spurious followed by speculation. The account in Acts does not say this. There are "schools of thought" as I mentioned earlier, and struggling to belong to one of these schools, individuals will fill in what they wish to try to belong to one or the other school. This includes bible commentators and groups who offer their particular translation.

The Greek, and versions that properly reflect the Greek, say "they were all" together at the same place. It does not infer everyone. We must rely on context to demonstrate who it speaks of. And we must not be confused by the numbering that has been inserted into these letters. I have here below removed the numbers and I use the NIV which properly conveys the meaning of the Greek in this instance. I begin at the end of Acts 1 and carry into Acts 2.

So they nominated two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. Then they prayed, “Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs.” Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles. When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place.​

I did not have to embellish. This is a direct cut and paste. It holds to the Greek. "They" were the 11 plus newly appointed Matthias. Seeing how you made such an effort to cling to the 120 doctrine demonstrates how difficult this really is.

(3) This is my original statement. I am not aware that "some" said anything similar. Did I miss it?

(4) This is spurious. The house where "they were staying" from Acts 1:13 on the day of Ascension and the House "where they were sitting" at Pentecost a week later in Acts2:2 are not to be confused. They are different Greek words and occurred a week apart. Muddling these two is at the heart of the problem. And just because one can find "a school of thought" or a group that is willing to muddle it and print a spurious edition of the Bible does not justify lacklustre bible study. (do not take offence)

(5) This is spurious. "There" were thousands of persons there. Many had yet to repent. No fire came to them. The Greek lends no support to this thought.

(6) This is complete speculation and demonstrates how unwilling one can be when it comes to letting go of false, preconceived ideas.

(7) This is correct. This is why this is so important.

(8) This is not the only scripture text that explains the Apostles were in the Temple. Luke wrote Acts. He also wrote this.

While he was blessing them, (Day of Ascension a week prior to Pentecost) he left them and was taken up into heaven. Then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy. And they stayed continually at the temple, praising God.​

Luke puts them squarely in the Temple from the Ascension forward. Their "upper room where they were staying" was for sleeping and was used once only for prayer by the 11, Mary, Jesus' brothers and some women on the Day of Ascension.

Luke's clear writing, and the context, and events of Pentecost 33CE, all clearly demonstrate that the '120 in the upper room' teaching is false.

(9) But only Galileans spoke in tongues. It is false teaching to say that everyone had the gift. Acts 2:7 The reason for this is simple and revealed by the Angel of the Ascension who spoke to the Apostles as recorded by Luke at Acts 1:11. The Apostles were all Galileans. Hence, the onlookers said asked "Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans?" Yes, onlookers, they are... all 11+1.

(10) This is correct. He used the Apostles.

(11) This is correct. Later, not at Pentecost. And never to the degree that the Apostles had.

 

Thank you for your reply, Apocalypse,

Now, here is more of the way I see it.

1. I personally use the NIV , myself, most the time. I feel it flows well, and I trust it. I do not trust the NWT. I know a thing or two, and Franz, the main one 'translating, doctored the translation to throw out the anointing teaching (as unimportant). He was a screamer when giving talks. (I notice the demons screamed at Jesus when he confronted them......)

2. The factual account in Acts has new believers receiving the holy spirit regularly, and speaking in tongues.

3. Jesus relatives; all were 'Galileans"...as were his apostles, and their relatives. Add those to the mix, and that would be over half the number right there. The account says there were many languages represented in the miracle-tongues that day:well over 16.

" Aren't all these who are speaking Galileans? Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? Parthians, Medes , and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Lybia near Cyrene, visitors from Rome (both Jews and converts to Judaism) Cretans and Arabs- we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!"

"Amazed and perplexed, they ask one another, "What does this mean?" Acts 2:7-12 NIV

" Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd; " Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. These people are not drunk as you suppose. It's only nine in the morning! This is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

"In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people.

Your sons and your daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.

Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my spirit, and they will prophesy......."

(More of Joel)

then Peter concludes the quote;

" And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." Acts 2:14-21 (in part)

Here, brother, is the reason for the fulfillment as written. God's spirit was poured out on men and women, boys and girls, old and young that day. Not just the few Apostles.

 

Brother Apocalypse,

Speaking on the forum is kind of like a gunfight every person in town lines up to watch sometimes.

I wish we could keep a more personal, friendly tone, as fellow prisoners escaping from prison holes and hard-hearted jailors. ...which is what the condition really is with JW's now, and has been when I was anointed.

The idea of discussing some matters which we need to on e-mail ...would that appeal to you? I can give you that if you are interested? I also wish for you to have the address of the forum I and others ; ex, and still-JW's...have posted thousands of documented truths, along with current thought about scriptures, which are too conflicting to some here.

I believe we can get e-mail through the personnel file. Is that right, Joshua?

 

I'm not interested in a gunfight. LOL
What part of what I wrote was not friendly and personal?
I want to be friendly and personal. But I will not hold back from speaking the truth either. Whose example would I be following?

When Paul stood up to the false teaching representatives of the governing body in the first century, he stood toe to toe and didn't budge "not for a minute" as he wrote the Galatians. Truth is truth brother.

John, I replied directly to your writings with precision in the interest of not leaving a stone unturned. Was that unloving?

My point is, ...you make a point and I respond the point and add something and visa versa... That's how it works... no?

But when I make a point, you discard it and talk about something else, like as if we are playing tennis. Or as you put it, a gunfight.

1. You changed the subject.
2. You spoke about generalities which I did not dispute and are not at issue.
3. That is a redirect. "all of these who are speaking are Galileans ...not "over half the number". And there is no mention of anyone speaking except the Apostles. This is a dishonest approach and I am disappointed.

* I made the point that Luke puts the 11 squarely in the Temple from the Ascension forward. You did not respond to Luke's writing brother.
** I made the point that you made an erroneous connection between the two houses which you refused to respond to.
*** You didn't address the dates when everything takes place.

You talked about the NWT and Franz... yes, we all kinda know that stuff. Remember, I was friends with Franz's nephew.

Email is nice, but I have chosen to do as the Apostles set the example. All things out in the open.

Please address what I wrote dear brother, in the same way I addressed your writing.

Am I truly wasting my time on this board, like Paul said "striking the wind"?

BTW. I have people I talk to through email who put in the effort. If I sense that a person want's to stick to a false idea because they cannot break free from it, like a Trinitarian, then I move on. And I have enough such people to talk to, I am only one man.

 

My time on this board is coming to a close.

I was invited here by a posting that one of the persons who moderate this board made, over at the JWD board -on which I have been for over 15 years.

I do not feel compelled to twist the arms of folks here, to believe my way. I have merely stood up for the truth, not as I see it, but as it is offered in God's word, and not one person here has made a serious rebuttal of the specific points I have made.

Will the truth be known? Yes, Christ promised it. And nobody can stand in His way. "For there is nothing carefully concealed that will not be brought into the light"

I have known the truth of this matter, regarding the false Pentecost fables harboured and taught be Christendom, of which the Watchtower Society is a part, for the better part of 20 years. My study group printed a multi-page paper outlining the truth and it was sent to the watchtower in the same way it was sent to other denominations along time ago.

I see now that there are other groups who have come to the light on the true nature of the Church's origin.
Here's one.
XXXXXXXXXXX

It's interesting to see this particular group because they make reference to the (Insight On the Scriptures, Volume 2, page 599)
I don't know if they are current or former JWs or not. They seem to be Jewish Christians.

The '120 in the upper room fable' will die.

 

Well, let's try to take the tone down to a brotherly friendly one, instead of;, "I am wasting my time here..with you idiots."...just because I don't agree entirely with your whole theory. Can you have enough humility as a Christian to admit you are not giving the time and patience needed to walk through this dissection? Please wait a second....

Now, like I said, I agree with you after re-reading Acts here; the outpouring of spirit occurs in a house...and not necessarily the one mentioned before when all gathered to appoint Matthias. But especially NOT the upper room the Apostles met in. So...you have my 'A-OK' on that. Thank you for that research.

Moving along, now to another point; where you say,

"While he was blessing them, (Day of Ascension a week prior to Pentecost) he left them and was taken up into heaven. Then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy. And they stayed continually at the temple, praising God.
Luke puts them squarely in the Temple from the Ascension forward. Their "upper room where they were staying" was for sleeping and was used once only for prayer by the 11, Mary, Jesus' brothers and some women on the Day of Ascension"

Now... I can't agree they were never anywhere else but in the temple up to Pentecost, as the account clearly says , again.....once more...we shall read together Acts 2:1-4

" When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the spirit enabled them." NIV (again...we have in common a translation we enjoy and trust better than others. I think that is good)

Now, it clearly to me....says all the believers received the Holy Spirit at this house...not the temple. And not the 'upper room', either.

"Constant attendance at the temple" may thus be seen to be relative. For instance, did they take their meals there? Sleep there? I doubt it. Look at verse 45,46:

" They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need. Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes , and ate together with glad and sincere hearts."

Now, another thing you said; I spoke in generalities. Yes, and I only needed the Bible, not other 'professional translators' to understand more clearly the where and when of the account. Thanks to you, and your bringing up the good point, I now understand something new;different, and better than what we all took for granted.

Now.Will you address my counterpoint?

Peter explains in a manner clear as a bell, that the persons being anointed by the spirit here are men, women, young and old. The 12 Apostles do not fit the description of what he is saying, and what begins at Pentecost. God begins to select men and women..even young ones, to be 'sons of the kingdom'...not just 12 men.

This is the good news of the Kingdom. There is no clergy class on earth. All baptized believers put themselves in line to become Kings, Priests, and Rulers of the future New Earth. Gentiles, Jews, sinners...old, young..."all of you are 'brothers' "

Only this can be seen as a reasonable answer to the question, "Who is the spirit being poured out upon? Apostles only? Or 'all the believers'...which includes the apostles, their families, and other Galilean believers, and probably not a few others not from Galilee, too.

What about Martha, Mary, and Lazarus? Don't you think they were there? They were from the Jerusalem area...Bethany.

The man quoted saying they were Galileans, was no doubt able to identify these generally as Galileans. (? accent, clothing, whatever)

Now we can beat this thing to death....or over-analyze it forever, but...speaking plainly, as you yourself do.... I believe I have a stronger argument .

 

Hi Apocalypse:

If you have not departed I have a question for you. By the way, I think this is a nice topic. My question... Are you suggesting a "time disconnect" between Acts 1:14 and Acts 1:15?

 

Thanks for asking that question Frank. The events of those two verses cannot be the same day. In fact there are more than likely several days apart.

That said, I talked about this several times already. For instance, in post #23 I wrote;

"Back to Pentecost. Get out the Jewish calendar. Lookup the months, Iyar 25 through Sivan 6 Christ's death, resurrection, his 40 days, the week prior to Pentecost, and then Pentecost.
There's no mistake. The calendar does not lie.".​

Although I have to add dear Bro that your post is right under it at #24 so I believed you were reading what I wrote.
You do read what I write... right?
I read yours.

 

Don't post what you don't understand.

 

John. It is very hard to follow where you are going. You mix everything together.

For instance, examine what you wrote in the above quote from your last post, all of which I read BTW

In RED I highlight that you begin, in this sentence, to discuss the time prior to Pentecost.
In BLUE you begin to talk about a Scripture concerning the time of and after Pentecost.

You cannot prove something concerning yesterday and the days before ...by discussing the events of today.

The remainder of what you wrote is the same. I won't even go there. My eyes hurt.

 

Spurious comments in RED

I already posted about who "they" were in 2:1. See post #45 which contains a quote, I used the NIV but it doesn't matter which translation you use as long as it's an honest one without a huge interpretive interest.

Christian searchers get confused about what is written in the books of the Bible because of the numeration. In this case, the separation in the book of Acts between chapter 1 and chapter 2. REMOVE THEM. They were put there by monks who had their own misunderstandings of these verses hundreds of years ago.

I will below re-post what I posted in post #45. (I hate re-posting because it uses up bandwidth for nothing. Remember, I have been doing this since dial-up connections were just invented. Bandwidth was a premium.)

Acts of the Apostles

So they nominated two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. Then they prayed, “Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs.” Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles. When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. (1:23-2:1)
​

"They" is the Apostles. "They" in the first, second and third above reference were the 11. The last "they" now included Matthias.

If you rely on the monks numeration and the interpretive translations that suit your need to stick to the 120 upper room error, then you will miss out.

 

Friends. I do not wish to weary you. And I do not wish to be wearied. In my case, I weary because I post a piece of information, and then I am asked about something for which I have already posted and have not received a response on.

Take the time do do the work. For the love of Christ. Don't demonstrate to me that you couldn't be bothered to read.

You wish to be treated seriously, as Christian men and women as do I. I have read and analyzed carefully what persons have written. Even Josh who writes about the "children in the marketplace". By the way Josh, that is chapter 39 in the Greatest man book. I didn't go look it up. That's from memory. That book has it wrong as do you when you use it. Jesus said this in way of explaining why the Jewish religious leaders hated Him, and John. Because Jesus and John would not "dance" to the religious leaders music.

You're application here demonstrates your lack of knowledge of the Christ.

To my opening comments, that "the 120 in the upper room never happened" I add yet another.

Nobody spoke in different languages at Pentecost.

 

Hi Apocalypse:

When I come to this site I start reading from where it says new. If there are posts before that that were not labeled new I may have missed a post or two. Anyway, if there were about 120 in verse 14. Is the dispute that there was not 120 there when the Holy Spirit was poured out? My question is if there were 120 together in 1:14, is it a big stretch to think there were 120 together when the Holy Spirit was poured out? They would have certainly stayed in Jerusalem as Pentecost was a required festival of the Jews. I don't think that all 120 received Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost unless (which is not recorded, I don't think) they received it by laying on of the hands of the Apostles, which is the way that people in the 1st Century received Holy Spirit.

Question for you Apocalypse, who or what is the Holy Spirit?