The 120 of Pentecost.

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by apocalypse, Mar 20, 2016.

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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Moderator Staff Member

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    I probably worded that wrong :)

    "Sanctification" comes by one mechanism - the blood of Jesus as the sacrificial "lamb of God".

    On the other-hand, we know that there is a prophesied "mass delusion" which cause the world to reject God's offering to mankind, not through an outright rejection of the scriptures, but through a delusional reading of it's purposes and intent.

    This delusion will likely come from "Christianity" with a deep understanding of the scriptures, but warped into man worship, denying Christ (etc) playing against man's desire for hubris and importance (the messiah complex)

    Otherwise, how would the chosen be deceived, if "that were possible"?

    The Watchtower is like an old sock.

    It stinks. It has holes. But it's comfortable .. and my feet are cold.

    The "new Christian" message that is coming, with it's various conceptions, will likely have something to do with "man-gods" (anointing).

    For this reason, I love the Watchtower, as they are a bulwark (albeit delusional, like the Pharisees) against the pagan intention.

    Just like Catholicism delivered Christianity into 16C, I see the Watchtower as delivering a group of humble and sackcloth adorned people to challenge the nation-states.
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Moderator Staff Member

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    What am I missing? I've searched for shadows of reality in this ... but can't find it!

    Is the point that "man" understands one language of the Holy Spirit? [that makes sense and is a beautiful spiritual thought]
     
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    Frank Conger

    Frank Conger Guest

    They spoke in the languages of the crowd that was listening. Or, they just spoke and the Holy Spirit translated it for the ones in the crowd to hear in their particular tongue. What matters is they heard the message in their own language and apparently for the first time they understood what was being said.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    True that brother...
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Just a suggestion, but we usually present a point and explain scripturally why we bring out said subject. By just dropping a "bomb" (as we usually feel we're doing) your only alienating your readers and appear to challenge them. In reality we are a very close family here, no need to challenge, just present your understanding.
     
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    apocalypse

    apocalypse Guest

    Frank is hitting it. You go bro.

    The Holy Spirit opened the minds of the listeners, who were chosen to understand ...in their mother tongue. There were those there to whom it was not granted, and these ones commented that "they are drunk".

    I would like to reply to you but include single and josh. I read what they wrote and I thank single for his/her question and Josh for his sentiments about presentation.

    You all have read the account of Pentecost, so I don't need to quote the verses. My effort is to challenge the reader to step out of their comfort zone and look at the account from another angle.

    At Pentecost, something happened that was miraculous. But the story, as it's told in Christendom has the bystanders without HS saying "they are full of sweet wine" and Christendom has the tradition of teaching that the "they" refers to the speakers.

    In actuality, the comment about being drunk was in reference to the listeners, who were claiming that the multitudes from all over Europe were understanding in their mother tongue simultaneously.

    There was no separating of all the language groups into smaller groups by language ...and an Apostle going to each group to speak.

    And if such a thing were to have happened, it wouldn't have been a miracle. Even Watchtower can accomplish this much today.

    My own mother, rest her soul, had 7 languages under her belt. If the apostles each learned 3 then they could easily have pulled this off.
    And who would need to say that 'they are drunk' because they made a claim that this had happened.

    No, something so wonderful happened that non-receivers accused the claimants of this miracle to be drunk.

    The Apostles tongues of fire were also not visible to mockers. Or else the mockers would be silent.

    The 12 spoke and taught as they had always done, as "men of Gaililee". However the Spirit filled the chosen listeners so that they could both see the tongues and hear the words.
     
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    Frank Conger

    Frank Conger Guest

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    Baruq

    Baruq Member

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    When I was a child (too many years ago, in the 70's), as I was reading this story I thought it was the way it happened; that, in fact, people heard in their own language even though the apostles spoke in their own language. I believed it for years until I read in the publications of the society that, in reality, the disciples have received the gift of tongues. (when I was a child, rarely I read the publications, neither I was preparing my meetings; Instead of following the meetings, I read the Bible in secret from my father) And this explanation had me disappointed, I found mine more logical, but I had no reason to doubt about what was saying the rest of the world. (not only Jehovah's Witnesses believe this)

    My reasoning was: how Peter could speak to the whole crowd, and that everyone understood it? He did not speak all languages at the same time.
     
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    apocalypse

    apocalypse Guest

    Thank you for an excellent experience. God has blessed you with a love for His word. Never lose it. And from youth, your reasoning powers were admirable. It was a shame that we were misled by imposters.

    The Acts account tells us that the Apostles were speaking "in tongues" plural. Not just a 'different tongue'.

    The "tongues of fire" that sat "on each one of them" clearly identified where the speech was emanating from.

    There was to be no confusion as though the speech was emanating from some other source or person. The crowds needed to connect the words spoken to the Apostles, as it was they who had authority in God's new church.

    When others were granted the gifts, the gifts were spread through them. Again, with the laying on of hands, the connection was made.
     
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    apocalypse

    apocalypse Guest

    Thanks for that link Frank. I did some reading over there.
    I posed a link to the Jews for Christ site, but the mods removed it. Anti-semitism perhaps?
     
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    John S

    John S Member

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    Baloney!

    All the "believers" spoke in languages, and the 12 Apostles added to the witness by performing signs.

    Subsequently the book of Acts repeatedly shows examples of the new converts receiving God's spirit and speaking in tongues. READ IT AND WEEP!

    You are sinning against God's Spirit by denying the re-birth of the Holy Spirit as Jesus prophesied in John 3.

    Just because you are not born of the spirit, you are envious, and hateful toward all who are.

    It will be your down fall unless you REPENT!

    The 'Revealing' of the Sons of God' is now, and they will show by the knowledge of Christ and his Gospel what is true and what is not. You better beware, Apocalypse....and I'm not calling you brother until you change your anti-Christian tone.
     
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    John S

    John S Member

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    This episode of truth against darkness is not for my glory, but for God's Son. He has anointed me for the purpose of showing what is true.

    Now, Apocalypse, you better put your best game face on, because you are challenging the Christian fundamental of anointing and Sons of the Kingdom.

    For all here to witness,

    GAME ON!
     
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    John S

    John S Member

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    I will say it now as I have in times before. I will go toe-to-toe with any man with Jesus' instructions and explanations to back me.

    You better re-read John's gospel before you take up this truth challenge, Apocalypse.

    You have bit off way more than you can chew.

    I will not honor you for denigrating God's word, and the pouring out of holy spirit upon all the believers, the 12 Apostles included.

    Sharpen your wits; you are going up against the sword of the spirit now.
     
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    Baruq

    Baruq Member

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    On the other hand, the verse says, "and they all became filled with holy spirit and started to speak in different languages, just as the spirit enabled them to speak", which seems to contradict what I have said above and suggest that they actually spoke in tongues.

    But verses 6 to 12 seem to rather go in the direction expressed above, that is that each one heard in his native language the apostles who were speaking aramaic. (because only Peter was speaking and everybody was understanding him)

    I can't reconcile the two passages.
     
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    Frank Conger

    Frank Conger Guest

    The baptism of John was an intransitive baptism, meaning that he was the only one who was authorized from above to administer such a baptism for the remission of sins in the first Century. He was the fulfillment of Elijah for that time. Remember Elijah had the power to make it rain and the power to stop up the heavens from raining. This raining is a metaphor for baptism. When he gave that same physical baptism to Jesus (who gave it to his disciples) the baptism was made transitive meaning others beside John or Jesus (whom John gave his baptism) could also perform the water baptism.

    But, baptism by Holy Spirit was also intransitive, meaning the only ones that could perform the baptism in Holy Spirit were the Apostles. They received Holy Spirit at Pentecost and the passed those gifts along to others as the Holy Spirit advised them to. This authority was from Jehovah God through Jesus.

    Yes, Jehovah would fulfill the expressions of the Prophet Joel by "pouring out his spirit" on all types of flesh. Picture though that the Apostles were the pitcher or vessel that the Holy Spirit was contained in and it was them who were used to contain the Holy Spirit and to pour out on to others this gift and whatever additional gifts the Holy Spirit decided for that particular person, whether it be a vision, a dream, a prophecy, etc., etc. . Jehovah was not literally pouring the gifts out on everyone but he used the Apostles as the vessel to administer these gifts.

    Remember, when the Apostles died, so did the gifts. The gifts of the Holy Spirit were not dead, but the pitcher was broken. The vessel by which Jehovah chose to dispense such gifts was gone. In these last days we can expect, I think a similar phenomenon. How this will happen I do not know but we just have to wait and see.
     
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    John S

    John S Member

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    Easy, The 'believers 'and apostles had the gift of tongues, and passed on the message Peter spoke to those who needed to here it in their own tongue.
     
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    Frank Conger

    Frank Conger Guest

    When Peter stood to speak, he did not have to speak in the languages of all the people that were there at the time. He gave his lecture in one language and the Holy Spirit assured that all the different people heard what Peter said in their individual languages. That is the power of God.
     
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    apocalypse

    apocalypse Guest

    Thank You Frank for the 'frank' explanation. It was on the money.
     
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    apocalypse

    apocalypse Guest

    I tried to 'double-like' your post. Tried...
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Member

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    I remember having read something about it a few years ago. Maybe I posted it here someplace.

    Ok, I found it.

    For you baruq, Baptisé et rempli d'esprit saint, Alfred Kuen p. 98-100. If it's of interest to you, I'll send you scanned copies of said pages. This book was written by an Evangelist in order to "debunk" the Pentecostal dogma regarding the gifts of the Holy Spirit. He's the main author of the Bible version entitled "Parole Vivante". Interestingly, this version is one of my favs....

    Please compare with : "Father, glorify your name.” Then a voice came out of heaven: “I have glorified it and will glorify it again.” The crowd that was standing there heard it and began to say that it had thundered. Others said: “An angel has spoken to him.”" - John 12:28-29

    It seems that the Holy Spirit selected one way or the other according to the goal intended :

    "to yet another operations of powerful works, to another prophesying, to another discernment of inspired expressions, to another different tongues, and to another interpretation of tongues." - 1 Cor. 12:10

    Some people were given the gift of speaking other tongues and others to understand other tongues. (Please compare with 1 Cor. 14:27-28)
     

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