The 120 of Pentecost.

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by apocalypse, Mar 20, 2016.

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    Frank Conger

    Frank Conger Guest

    Hi John:

    You can make the Bible say whatever you want it to say if you try hard enough but it is a well understood thing that only through the hands of the apostles did people get the gifts of the Spirit. John, you can be "spirit born" or "born again" without having the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Not having these gifts does not mean a person is not a Son of God. That's why people do not have the gifts of the Spirit today (yet), because there are no Apostles to give them by laying on of the hands.
     
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    apocalypse

    apocalypse Guest

    Hi. I have annotated your post above. My comments in Blue about the points you made in Red, Scriptures in BOLD BLACK
     
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    apocalypse

    apocalypse Guest

     
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    apocalypse

    apocalypse Guest

    It's unfortunate for some that even bold evidence presented straighforwardly is swept to the side by an emotional need to remain vested in a long-held myth.
     
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    apocalypse

    apocalypse Guest

    John says he gives up. I have annotated his post.
     
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    John S

    John S Member

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    Hey, Frank

    The Acts account specifically shows all the believers received the holy spirit, and Christ says we all should too. It is the gospel: receive holy spirit after being baptized, as Jesus did. Yes, you can read it right out of the Bible by using the passages where the apostles or their representatives went down to a certain city, etc. True. But it was Steven who was stoned that day before Saul...and he saw the vision of Christ at God's right hand, and being full of holy spirit, he gave the witness.

    It was Phillip who gave the witness of Christ to the Ethiopian eunuch, and baptized him, and he went his way back to Africa, surely God's spirit went with him; no need to return to the Apostles to 'receive the holy spirit'.

    There are no spirit-filled apostles today as far as the original 11, then Matthias: all dead. But there are millions of disciples, and missionaries, witnesses of Jesus filled with the spirit. We need no man to lay his hands on us to receive the spirit, as it comes from Jehovah through Christ directly.

    So, Apocalypse, what is your message to us, if we were to listen to you over the Apostle Peter, and stop savoring the spirit and the power of God through Christ's words:

    " You must be born again,"...?
     
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    John S

    John S Member

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    And Frank, if you notice in Acts 2, the spirit is promised for Christians living in the 'last days'...which is surely our time.Now we see no need for the miracles of tongues at present, as the good news of Christ crucified for our sins is worldwide. It has been preached and is still being preached every hour and minute of every day in congregations everywhere. And the Bible is everywhere in all languages mostly.

    But what Peter an Joel said is true. Prophesying, dreams, visions, and of course, as Jesus said throughout Revelation and the 'sign of the end' in Matt. 24...the good news is and would be preached, and his witnesses would have to endure trials like his, mocking, persecution, hunger, ridicule. ...false teachers and prophets too.

    Now, if you are teaching we have no need to be born of God's spirit, to become sons of God, and have these experiences like Peter said, and have God with and Christ within us, as Christ taught..the "Oneness" through being filled with the holy spirit, we are trying to mislead Christian hopefuls.

    So, Apoc, do you see where I am coming from?

    Yes, Frank, I believe we can be born of the spirit and do not need to speak in tongues, or heal, etc.

    But I have been gifted with the holy spirit, visions, dreams, and the power to preach a better witness than when I was a JW. The witness about Jesus , whom Jehovah God sent for forgiveness of sin and for us to have the gift of the spirit, and life eternal, which does not come from men.

    I also believe we should magnify God, Jehovah, and his name and glory, too. Rev. 11:18

    The issue , though, at the end is about the one God sanctified and sent into the world to teach and die for us.

    "And the dragon grew wrathful at the woman, and went off to wage war with the remaining ones of her seed and observe the commandments of God and have the work of bearing witness to Jesus." Rev. 12:17

    The last year I was a Jehovah's Witness, I went out with an elder who's message at the door was, "Jehovah has appointed a faithful and discreet slave today , that gives us our spiritual food at the proper time."...this to a man in Apalachicola, FL where I worked 5 years. The man, who politely had invited us in, listened to our introduction, and message then did this;

    "What Bible are you using? May I see that?" The elder gave him the NWT. "The New World Translation, huh. I never heard of it. But I tell you, I use the King James Version, and I never heard Christians were to ever follow any 'faithful and discreet slave', only Christ Jesus. So, we here at this house will continue to do that. But I will pray for you two to get saved, and take Jesus into your hearts"...and on as he invited us to his door and said goodbye, graciously, and with not a little sympathy in his manner.

    Now, as we walked back to the car, I asked the elder where he got the idea from we should go to doors and tell people that. "Well that is the truth!..." he sputtered. "No", I said, "what that man said in there, was the truth" , I contended....and still do.

    I think that was one of the last times I went in service there, and with him. It really made me think, too.
     
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    Frank Conger

    Frank Conger Guest

    John, you are entitled to believe anything you want. That is your prerogative.
     
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    John S

    John S Member

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    I chose to believe Jesus' words over any men's ideas. I am banking my whole life and the hope of eternal life on it. I stopped participating in the first faith I was in after seeing the purposeful way they avoided the most important teachings, like being born of the spirit. Now I see these men lie, and are not just misled.

    Yes, Frank, and the things some say here, seem to be just misled.
     
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    apocalypse

    apocalypse Guest

    It's a good case study to look at what John S writes. One can see how cognitive dissonance takes place.

    Examine what he has posted. A few things you will notice.

    First, he will never discuss the below cut&paste.

    The Ascension Then he led them out as far as Bethany, and lifting up his hands he blessed them. While he blessed them, he parted from them and was carried up into heaven. And they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy, and were continually in the temple blessing God. (Luke 24:50-53 ESV)

    It's clear that from the day of Ascension forward, that the Apostles were daily at the Temple. But John S is going to insist that they, and a nameless crowd that he keeps trying to expand, were huddled in a hotel room for the week. And this, without a Scripture to back it up.

    Which brings us to the next issue. The events at Acts 1:12,13 obviously took place on the Day of Ascension. John S keeps going back to it to try to establish what took place at Pentecost a week later. As though there were some connection.

    Next, John S would have you believe that a whole congregation of 140 persons or more confined themselves to a hotel room for the week leading up to Pentecost and on the day of Pentecost, when they were supposed to be, as Jews, at the Temple, where by the way Jesus insisted they be when he gave the instruction to "not depart from Jerusalem"

    Imagine 140 persons staying confined to a room the size of a large hotel room. They would barely have room to move. Then, where was the food and water. How about the privy? And they slept there too I suppose. Just think about that for a few seconds. No indoor plumbing. No refrigerator, or kitchen.

    Imagine the whole congregation of Jehovah's witnesses staying at the Kingdom Hall for a week. Just ponder that for a minute. And think that the bathroom is under construction so it can't be used. Gotta go outside. And food, no fast food friends. No takeout. No place to cook.

    And meanwhile, if you asked John S to explain Luke 24:50-53... what would he come up with?

    Perhaps he will say it was all miracles. Sure, and God provided a miracle such that they could be in the 'upper room' and also "at the Temple blessing God" at the same time.

    You go John.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 19, 2016
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    wallflower

    wallflower Moderator

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    Are my posts coming out in English?

    Or should I try putting them in capital letters?
     
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    John S

    John S Member

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    Yes, Wallflower , right, right.

    It is best to stop judging or attacking, but reason and present. Sorry.
     
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    John S

    John S Member

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    I did not mean the men on this forum are lying, if that is what came across.

    I do believe we can have a safe bet if we put out full trust in Jesus' teachings. Especially on the subject above... receiving the baptism of the spirit. I'll go to a broader subject which encompasses this one and most others.
     
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    John S

    John S Member

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    And to Frank; Peter's explanation of the Tongue-miracles is applied to the last days, as in Jerusalem's in the first case, and surely in our time it will happen again, as Jesus prophesied it too; 9 Matt. 24:29) He also predicted the good news of the kingdom would be fully preached before the end comes as part of the sign....which it has overwhelmingly now in our day, too.

    Jesus in Revelation foretold, that before the end he will give holy spirit to his 'Two Witnesses ' who will prophesy. They will bring powerful works from God as a sign. So, it will be another world wide witness that Christianity is really the true religion, and people everywhere need to get aboard for salvation because a great darkness is at hand. Then, surely, Satan will be exposed and his Wild Beast government as a wicked takeover that enslaves minds and destroys souls.

    The 12 Apostles needn't be here for this either.

    And the dreams and prophesying anointed ones have and do is neither dependent on the apostles or any other religious clerical body. It's origination is Jehovah God himself , pouring out his spirit by his Son's hand just as he did 1st century. The apostles had no power at all, just as Jesus didn't : All God's Spirit.

    We here at this site do not need the apostles present, as you agreed, Frank, to have God's spirit come upon us. Romans not only explains how because of our sin-soaked flesh, we are unable to please God. But when we acquire his spirit, miraculous feats are possible, and God's way of viewing us changes. Them chapter 8 explains the adoption into God's family though the holy spirit in detail.

    Paul follows this train of thought in Galatians 5, also. (19-26)

    'Egotism' is also included in 5:26, something brothers here , all of us , must put away. Thank you Wallflower, again.... it is a 'work of the flesh'.

    The holy spirit is God's means of changing us into becoming a shining soul that imitates Christ, the whole point of becoming Christians. According to Christ, and his pupils, the Apostles, (Paul, I believe, is the 12th apostle ,possibly, not Matthias, but one picked by Christ...just a thought...)

    This, I also believe, is the real problem we as JW's struggled with; we were working for WT's agenda: Make more JW's to follow the 'Slave'. Instead, we should have spent more time working on ourselves, and our own children, and build up a body of Christ. ...Christians. We thus got swallowed up in more and various sins of the flesh, especially after the failed prophesy of 1975. Some , after the pressure valve blew, the end didn't come....went hog-wild into the love of money and material comforts and pleasures afterward; I was there, and got money-mad at times, too, in business.

    So, that being an experience I had too, I began studying deeper to ' find out what is wrong with our religion'. And this 'born of the spirit jumped out at me as I re-read the New Testament with a fine-toothed comb. That's when I received an experienced which changed everything; I received it myself. ...although I resisted on impulse, saying "I'm not worthy of that".

    But as Jesus said, "It's not about that!", (being worthy).No one is 'worthy', because God gives the spirit out of his love and mercy, it is forgiveness based on the listener's faith the ransom, God, and Jesus are REAL.And you are repentant for your sinful ways, and want God and Christ to be with you and change your personality.

    This , is also the Good News of the Kingdom. Not just the restoration of the earth, but of Christian's personalities, and how we can have God inside us through the spirit. This is huge. The world has no concept of this, but is Jesus Christ's message to all men and women:

    You must be born again.
     
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    Frank Conger

    Frank Conger Guest

    Like I said before John, you are entitled to believe whatever you want to believe.
     
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    John S

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    Of course people may believe whatever they want, but Christ says again..

    "The TRUE worshipers worship God with spirit and truth." John 4:24

    I am careful do follow that credo, as it is what Jesus said we should believe, and that is what is important , and only that will advance us into favorable results....not lies, fables, or wrong-turns.

    Jesus Christ IS God's means of salvation. Not just another 'belief'.

    I hope we all want to be Christians and profit by it, and please God, and not just rest in the old sayings that 'any old religion will do, as long as we're sincere'.

    The German people had their faith in the Third Reich......
     
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    Frank Conger

    Frank Conger Guest

    They are/were entitled to think that Adolph Hitler was God if they wanted. You can go on thinking that all the disciples spoke in tongues at Pentecost after receiving Holy Spirit directly from God (not through the hands of the Apostles) if you want to. That does not make it so though John, but you can believe what makes sense to you. Do you know any Apostles from God that are walking the earth right now? Have you met them? No? Well then there are no "gifts" of the Holy Spirit on earth today.

    When Jesus comes through the "presence" of his wife, the 144,000 members of his Holy Spirit. It will be then that the Apostles will again be walking on the face of the earth as humans. Then is when we will see the fulfillment of Joel in this "presence". They are coming to gather up and separate the "sheep from the goats", placing the sheep on the right and the goats on the left. The sheep and goats are mixed all throughout mankind. They have not been separated yet, that is a future event. It will happen during the worst period in the history of mankind and it will happen rather quickly.

    John, keep awake and listen for the voice of the real Shepherd Jesus through his wife when they come. It won't be long.
     
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    Utuna

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    The book I quoted above also says on page 4 :

    At the end of a fraternal day of interviews with Pentecostal friends, the supervisor of Pentecostal and pro-Pentecostal churches of a certain country told me : You know, we aren't theologians. We made certain kinds of experiences and then, we have endeavored to justify them through the Bible". As I wasn't sure of what he really meant, I asked him to repeat what he had just told me. "Yes", he said, "That really is the way things are". I later told about this discussion to the president of a Pentecostal and theological association of a whole continent and he simply answered me : "That's true, brother, that's true !"

    You know Frank. That's the problem with those who have had mystical experiences. Whether what happened originated from God or not isn't the point but said experiences generally give them a zeal that oftentimes doesn't have the means of its ambitions. The history of the Catholic church as well as Islam and more Eastern religions are rife with people having had visions, having heard voices and having reportedly had powers of sorts..... which pushed them to become preachers and even teachers. You can't persuade them of anything because the feelings that their experience gave rise to have taken the control of their mental powers and nothing that you will tell them, even if proven by the Bible, will sink in if they ever happened to contradict their personal experience. The only proof they'll be looking for in the Bible will be the one that proves the genuiness of their mystical experience, as the quotation above shows. Unfortunately, that experience pins them down somehow because if that which they experienced didn't originate from God.... Who will ever admit to it ?
     
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    Utuna

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    Biblical verses please...

    Nope ! The Ethiopian eunuch never received the Holy Spirit. Firstly, the Bible doesn't tell so and secondly, his baptism happened before Cornelius' conversion.

    "For this reason I remind you to stir up like a fire the gift of God that is in you through the laying of my hands on you." - 2 Tim. 1:6

    "Do not neglect the gift in you that was given you through a prophecy when the body of elders laid their hands on you." - 1 Tim. 4:14

    Why did Timothy need to have Paul's hands laid on him if we receive the Holy Spirit right away ? Don't you think that there are several kinds and/or levels of amount of Holy Spirit that each of us receive ?
     
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    Frank Conger

    Frank Conger Guest

    Having a share in the Holy Spirit of God is different than having a share in the gifts from God. They are sometimes given at or near the same time, but at others a person receives God's spirit as a token of their adoptions as Sons. They later, if at all recieve the gifts of the spirit.
     

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