Yes, I agree with you both.

Frank said, "Having a share in the Holy Spirit of God is different than having a share in the gifts from God." This I believe also as far as miraculous gifts: tongues, healing, special prophesying of events not mentioned as signs in the Bible, etc.

Now I have had personal gifts from God via Holy Spirit. These I have shared from time to time with those, hoping to stir up an interest among Jehovah's worshipers who do not understand the way is open and has been since Christ to receive the miraculous birth of becoming a 'son of the kingdom.' This is what is being denied by the WT, and has been taught for decades that the 'number of 144,000 is all filled up, since no more are going to be anointed'. ...etc.

How do they know the number is literal, for one ?; and coming from the most figurative of all Bible books, a mystery to be revealed at the appointed times, actually. Jesus NEVER said, around the last days, everything changes, and you will not be born of holy spirit, and all will just follow the FDS....and listen to their interpretations , which will prosper their own membership, only.

AS you, who have been witnesses all your life know only too well, the Good News of the Kingdom we taught as JW's fell flat , never reaching most all; 99.99% of all the Christians we preached to specifically because Jesus' words are so diametrically opposed to the Witness doctrine.
That is, "Nobody gets the spirit anymore; all are going to live on Paradise." and...

" We all must follow God's appointed representatives."

??????? !!!!!!!! Danger....Danger... "I smell a rat here!" And..." This is not what 'my Jesus' taught.!"So no wonder we made very little progress other than birthing not holy spirit converts, but more unhappy children that get baptized because their friends may have, or parents, the Org., or elders pressure them from birth to get baptized and Pioneer.

So, the increase crawls along, and we do not see a significant demonstration of change in the world because of our efforts. Baptists, and other evangelical religions have a much better image than we did, because of missionary efforts to help the poor by food relief, medical , and educational schools , hospitals, and relief ministrations.

Our missionaries are instructed NOT to give the local membership gifts of money or food, is all I have ever heard. Can you deny that?

And Utuna, you may be right, the Ethiopian may have never received the special gifts of the spirit, but I am saying he never had to return clear to Jerusalem to receive the anointing when that was opened to the Gentiles; good point. But according to Jesus' promise, which still stands today, we all can receive the anointing if we have faith, and endeavor to obey Jesus' commands. That is the good news message that has never changed. (John 3)

If you and Frank really did read the scriptures and have such a faith, you too may receive the same as I have, and many other JW's now who are being re-born, and experiencing the truth as Romans 8:9-17

The Apostles are all dead and in the memory of God. But sons of the kingdom are still being born daily, as Jesus' prophecies declare would be the case in the end times...also Peter, of his speech at Pentecost....men and women, young and old.

One must read the Book of John and Paul's letters , and Revelation with new eyes of faith...washing out the 'soap' WT put in them, causing pain, loss of scriptural sight, and spiritual blindness, actually.

The 'Holy Ones' of the Supreme on are those magnified at the final showdown. They are the sheep Jesus said would be collected at the end. Matt. 24 and 25 is prophetic of the last days. The brothers of Christ are alive and well during that time...aplenty! That's why Satan comes on back to earth, Revelation says, after losing the 'Heaven War'....to try to murder 'Christ' on earth...the brothers of Christ...the Body of Christ. Helpless, defenseless sheep.

I hope you believe the anointed brothers of Christ are here now, all around the earth, and in all fields, as Jesus said..it will take angels to gather them,...and bring them to Christ.

So....do you believe?

"When he has got all his own out, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, because they know his voice." John 10:4

Acts 2 tells all Christian hopefuls that they will be blessed with the holy spirit, like the believers in the Pentecost experience, as it applies to the 'last days'. Jesus gave a sign of the last days. We are in them. He quoted Joel and applied it to our day also, as Peter does...'the last days'.

I have had the promise that Peter calls attention to; just the same. It was a miracle from God and Christ to me, and you can experience the same. But as I did, you will have to read the New Testament over to prove this to yourselves, and ask God and Christ to show you personally this is his will for you, too. This is NOT my message : I'm just 'prophesying' something already laid down by Christ and the Apostle Peter.

What I do here, and on other sites too, is spread the news of the 'living water', just as it pours forth from Christ, and hopefully listeners will respond to it, and experience the birth of true knowledge; water of life, and receive the new birth to a living hope... the adoption foretold.John 4....Rom. 8...Gal. 4 This is the Kingdom message Witnesses are NOT preaching.

When one has this spirit, he feels the power of God inside, and believes what Jesus said, "If you have faith the size of a mustard seed, and say to this mountain, 'Be uprooted and cast into the sea,'...it will take place for him."

Now, if ever and whenever the sons of God are given that order, to do a special miraculous work...they will eagerly and in full faith go forth, as they KNOW the power of God already, it works in them every day and they feel it and know it personally.

So, it's all up to the Father, who has his Son leading the way. But neither I nor the other sons of God would ever stoop to performing miracles just to show skeptics what we already know: all of us. They will just deny it because of lack of faith, and they are unable to see it because eyes of faith are required to see the truth. The eyes of the heart must be opened. So, yes, I agree with you both on some things, but feel you have serious doubts about Jesus' message and the good news of the sons of God in this time.

You must remember what Christ said about those who seek a sign, and do not or are not able to, search the truth and recognize it in their hearts. That is dangerous, as these may be actually fighting against the holy spirit itself. If you remember Gamaliel's words to the Sanhedrin....? Please go in prayer and talk to God about it, don't be too hasty .

As an aside, Acts 10:42-47 is another example of people just listening to Peter's speech receiving the holy spirit and speaking in tongues....without Peter 'laying his hands on them'...just as at Pentecost...

All those in attendance: surely men AND women too....just as at Pentecost.

I think and hope we are on the same page, even though details may be confused.

I have never spoken in tongues, or healed, or performed miracles. But God has for me, many times. These are private, personal occasions for me and my loved ones to exult in. I hope you do have them, as they testify to the believer he is on the right track.

 

In studying the history behind the false notion that has now become cemented in the churches of Christendom, including watchtower, one will find that a long time ago, some of these would be preachers and teachers of the bible did a very poor reading of the first two books of Acts, and couldn't discern the fact that the events of Acts 1 were prior to Pentecost.

And so they attached, in their dark minds, the event of the Apostles in the upper room on the day of Ascension ...to Pentecost. They never even considered the fact that there was a week between the Ascension and Pentecost, a time period Jesus called "not many days after this" when on the day of Ascension he gave instructions to His Apostles alone.

Theses events are beyond question for a real bible student.
Pentecost was 50 days past the Passover.

Day 1) Passover. Christ died.He laid in the tomb 3 days in fulfillment of the prophecy conceding the "sign of Jonah"

Day 3) He was resurrected and appeared to the 11 for 40 days (also seen by 500)

Day 43) He gives instructions to 11 and ascends to heaven.

Day 43-44) Apostles with Jesus' family and a few women pray etc. Acts not clear on location. Must rely on Luke's final comments in book by his name. "Continually at the Temple"

Day 44-49) "During those days" 11 cast lots for Matthias. "Continually at the Temple"

Day 50) Pentecost. "Continually at the Temple"

Can the churches or watchtower admit this glaring error? Can even a few devotes to their own dogma admit it?

 

Yes Bro. Apocalypse, and I, for one, am grateful for you bringing this up. I also agree wholeheartedly with your summation that very sloppy Bible reading is what has been overlooked. I have learned something I feel is important, and I always appreciate learning something new.

This careful re-analysis of Biblical events and instructions must continue, in order for us to have an accurate knowledge of what is truth. (Col.1:9-12)

 

So, I would like to ask you a question: Don't you think the miracle of the holy spirit coming upon the believers occurred not in the temple....but as it says, (Acts 2:1-4)

"Now while the day of the festival of Pentecost was in progress they were all together at the same place, and suddenly there occurred from heaven a noise just like that of a rushing stiff breeze, and it filled the whole house in which they were sitting, and tongues as if of fire became visible to them and were distributed about, and one sat upon each one of them, and they all became filled with holy spirit, and started to speak with different tongues, just as the spirit was granting them to make utterance."

 

I've read both your posts above. The first lends one way, the second demonstrates how cemented your view is. Also, you are being coy.

You write "Don't you think..."

No, John s, I don't think... as you do. But I think you know that. I have filled the board with it. To write this is equivocal.

Your 'question' is in fact a presentation of your hardened viewpoint.

Let me demonstrate the mechanics of what you are thinking.

Your view is that since the word "house" appears in Acts 2:2 that this MUST be referring to the residential 'house' with its "upper room where they were staying" back in Acts 1:13. Even though the word "house" does NOT appear in Acts 1:13.

'Certainly,' you reason, 'this must be referring to the same location.'

No one has to strain to understand where you are getting it, or where Christendom gets it. We all had that viewpoint John, before we began considering what the Bible says.

However, John, if you take that view, then you are stuck.

Stuck like a trinitarian trying to avoid talking about verses that clearly point to the glaring fact that the trinity is rubbish.

Luke wrote "And they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem (DAY 43) with great joy, and were continually in the temple blessing God. (Luke 24:52-53 ESV)

We have noticed that you DO NOT comment on this BIBLE VERSE.

Acts 2:2 says "house" and so you discard clear statements by Luke and base your entire doctrine on one word, ... worse even, your perception of ONE WORD.

John, you then are saying... 'I choose one word and discard the rest.'

You give no consideration to the possibility that the actual meaning of the original word translated "house" at Acts 2:2 can be broad enough to mean "THE TEMPLE" and it's many individual houses on premises.

You discard what Jesus says concerning THE TEMPLE...
And he said to them, “Why were you looking for me? Did you not know that I must be in my Father's house?” (Luke 2:49 ESV)

You refrain from acknowledging that the bible, in speaking about the TEMPLE OF THE PAGANS in Sampson's time says...

And Samson said, “Let me die with the Philistines.” Then he bowed with all his strength, and the house fell upon the lords and upon all the people who were in it. So the dead whom he killed at his death were more than those whom he had killed during his life. (Judges 16:30 ESV)

However, as I have pointed out above when I dismantled the mechanism of your (mis) 'understanding', you will continue to discard evidence, refuse to discuss these verses and stick to the historical version for three reasons.

1) You don't want to be in such a small minority, having a different and radical view.
2) You cannot cope with the reality of having been wrong for long, about something so basic and important as this.
3) You indulge yourself with fantasies that you are going to perform miracles soon.

 

No, you are putting words in my mouth, friend. I never said the upper room is the same as the house where they received holy spirit.

Now, you have been dodging the very important point that peter applied the feminine to those receiving holy spirit; and did not exclude them.

You have never addressed this important fact: the anointed are men and women...not just 11, or 12 apostles.

I don't know if you'll ever face the facts, but readers will be able to see clearly what you say...and what the scriptures say, too.

My hat is off to you. That the upper room is not where the spirit was poured out. But that only the 11 apostles and Matthias received the spirit? No. Peter said otherwise, and the Bible continually said all the believers received the spirit in God's time.

Have you received it? If not....you are in no position to speak either for it or against, according to 1 Cor. 2.10, 11. You have no authority to judge if you are not filled with God's spirit and are one of the sons of God.

Are you?

 

And by the way, I will most likely be dead long before Revelation 11 is fulfilled.

By the way, how old are you, anyway? You act like a very young person...not aged, and mellowed at all......

Did you say you knew Franz? The nephew?

Do you still attend a Kingdom Hall?

Are you a 'fading Witness? DA'd? DF'd?

Just what are you driving at...that there are no anointed on earth today? You hinted that you would disclose this important info later...

 

If you relate to John 15, and feel you are a fruit on Jesus' vine, aka having him inside us, the spirit of Christ and Father, according to Romans 8...

Then we might be able sometime to see eye to eye.

If you are not born of the spirit, we are never going to be able to concur, agree, or be brothers in the faith, because only Christ's brothers seem to understand what the spirit is saying.

All who do not have the spirit are outside, looking in...or looking somewhere else.

I've never been able to get through to 'Christians' who are not one with Christ through the holy spirit. John 17

They do not 'belong to Christ'....so, they don't get the sense of what he is saying. One must be born again to receive the 'things of God'. Look it up. 1 Cor. 2:11-13

For your own sake, read it.

 

John.
Nobody ever said that only the 11 got the HS. That's how you read it.

1) Holy Spirit was poured out on Matthias also, as he was added to the ranks "during those days" prior to Pentecost.

2) Holy Spirit came also afterwards to the congregation as a whole, by means of the Apostles. Frank pointed this out. You seem to have missed this.

When the Apostles died, so did the "powerful works". But the HS can still live on in each one of us, in a limited way.

The whole discussion began with this topic header.
The '120 in the upper room' never happened.

My objective was to prove this was true. Have I succeeded?

I will quote you if I may. "My hat is off to you. That the upper room is not where the spirit was poured out."

I am happy to put this topic to bed.

 

Dear Apocalypse,

That's what I strongly implied in my previous post. If the powerful works died with the apostles, therefore the powerful works he (and many others here and there and over the past centuries...) says he was the object (maybe still is...) come either from demonic forces or pathologic causes. Anyone in his shoes would fight these conclusions to death... which is understandable...

Yes, the amount of HS is delivered nowadays in limited ways since the period of time we're living in corresponds to the crossing of the wilderness, the summer heat that follows the Pentecost.... till Sukkot, the feast of Tabernacles, which is the next feast to take place.

 

John. Please check the below that apply to you.
[_] I speak in tongues.
[_] I see the future.
[_] I cure leprosy.
[_] I restore sight to the blind.
[_] I raise the dead.
[_] I walk on water.
[_] I know which stock will go up on Monday on the NYSE
[_] I hear voices in my head.

I am particularly interested in the second last one. I need to make another $500k and I can retire.

 

However, what remains to be defined is : Above what threshold are some spiritual drives to be considered as "powerful works" and therefore to be reserved for the last days and debunked before then....

"All the same, wisdom is proved righteous by its works.”" - Matt. 11:19

I know that you'll disagree with me on this but I consider that the fight against the WT/GB is already a thing of the past, a rearguard one.... The City on high having real foundations is what matters... Spending years and even decades fighting windmills like Don Quixote did is a clear demonstration of lack of wisdom and spiritual insight....

 

I check all those boxes.

Serious , and deep-scarring diseases of the soul can be arrested and reversed by drinking in the waters of truth, mixed with God's healing spirit.

The blind are seeing spiritual vistas, and valuable purpose, and renewing their bodies; living longer , happier lives, and being filled with God's personality, mirrored by his Son.

They can see the future plain as day. In detail....1000's of years into it because they believe the Revelation prophesies that have fulfilled, and will be in years to come.

Waters of truth, however deep, do not worry me. God's spirit helps me navigate the water of truth, around boulders and dangers....rip currents, floods of evildoers, and crime, too. I know where not to go, and when.

Voices, oh yes. The holy spirit talks in my mind many days, and when I pray, words come in replies to specific questions, usually brief, and to the point. Sometimes scriptures pop up as an answer. Dreams, visions,just as Peter said those with the spirit would receive.

All stocks will fail soon, stock exchanges, and all commerce....dead stop...irreversible. I advise sell all you have hoarded and give to the poor, and you can start accumulating heaven's treasures.

I hope this helps.

 

Oh, I forgot, yes ...I speak the English tongue, very well, and a little Spanish, and used to have a little Portuguese....and American Sign, too. I have spoken the good news in all these tongues through the years.

 

Utuna,

I believe the spirit and teachings of that 'way' are still strong here, yet some will not see the danger in putting trust in them, instead of Jesus Christ's ...Christian...instructions.

It can be shown in detail very clearly where and what is supposed to drive our hopes and intentions, and to where....If only we will read the instructions revealed by holy spirit, not continue to echo Circuit Overseers, or 'Presidents'...Governing Body members...as if these were the 12 Apostles.....

For who among that religion believe Jesus' clear instructions,

"You must be born again." ?

Really, how many here believe his words?

Do you?

 

Alright. Enough.

If you continue to pick up a box full of marbles, and shake it...it'll rattle, ...harder, it rattles louder.

I am rattling...and rambling, on,... too much. Sorry. I need to go away.

Goodbye!

 

Well Utuna, everyone is entitled to an opinion. Even a wrong one.
Recently, I was reading things on the internet and I came across a young couple who left watchtower and who have a few videos up on Youtube.
Christian Katja
As I watched the video, I listened to why and how their eyes were opened. I knew it was only a matter of watching for a while until I would hear about the United Nations and the watchtower's hypocrisy.

Sure enough, the story is told.

I felt pleased. I don't know how many thousands of people have had light squeezed into the tiny slit of their unopened eyes because stupid Don Quixote me made the effort to dig up the truth and publish it.

If you were in charge, where would anyone be?

On a local level, I am in communication with one former elder who, at one point, came to counsel me in my home years ago. He is out and learning how to be objective for the first time.

Another is a current MS with whom I studied with 25 years ago. He is slowly opening his eyes.

Then there's the list of ones in my city who have quit and some who have not but are learning truth.

But I should give up on everyone because you see a windmill chaser.

 

And my final post here will be to John S who participated so vigorously in this discussion.

You said ...

Okay then John. You checked the below box too, then.

I stuck this in there for a reason. I think everyone here knows why.

Goo luck shakin' your marbles.

 

Well, are you seeking glory as if you are responsible for something God's holy spirit is doing?

There again, you deny the place and role of the holy spirit, and say those who have it are demonized...just as WT and their supporters do.

Look how many times you steered away from my questions on just this one topic. Finally , instead of honestly and humbly admitting you learned something too, (you didn't know as much as you thought about Pentecost after all), you make light of your own concoction, acting like ,...

"Well, so what?" Maybe the 'house' they were in when they spoke in tongues was IN the temple....and maybe the house was the 'house of God'.

Be careful ...you brought the subject up, as you are searching for students, admirers, what?

All the time, your motive was what?...tell us. 'There is no anointing.' Isn't that what you're trying to say?

You ridicule me, and all Jesus ' brothers on earth, saying we are demonized. I think whose who are doing this are on very shaky ground......look at the scripture. I also think they don't believe Jesus will do a thing about their ridicule. Guess what...he watches how they're treated. You readers here, who see this going on... read that scripture in Matt. will you? Look how serious this is.

Matt. 25:41-46

In the end, those doing evil to Christ's brothers will be repaid evil.

I don't care if you blow the whistle on WT about the UN . I didn't know anything about it, and don't care either way. They are liars anyway, and Jesus is the one whom they are concealing from the WORLD. For this, they (WT) will pay. They are hiding God's word. Rev. 22:18,19

And they falsely prophesy Armageddon 's date over and again to get a morphine shot of fear into the veins of sheep. Then, when it doesn't occur, they murder those who grumble. And then at Memorial , nobody partakes. Then they vilify and demonize those who do... who obey Christ. It has become not a Christian religion at all, but more like a mafia move to stay in power and control and milk people of money, real estate, and wealth...tax free.

Add to the mix breaking down and apart families, creating orphans and fatherless children, divorces, suicide.

How and why anyone would desire to stay associating? Wait around for 'God ' to discipline and change it?

Its up to each one to make decisions concerning this organization. I chose to have my name removed permanently, as I waited 9 years longer than I should've, praying before every meeting for God to show me he would do something about it.

He is doing something about it. He is helping good people to get out, and clear of this disgusting thing, through the holy spirit.

Each one here needs to pray about this and LISTEN for Father to speak to you in your mind through Jesus, his Word.

"My sheep listen to my voice." John 10:27

It was Christ and the holy spirit, no demon, who came to me. Make note of my defense for Christ, and all the scriptures I have written here this last year about his teachings, and plans for Christians disciples.

Who am I promoting? You decide.