For those who believe we are talking about two individuals:

Are they going to literally stop rain on the earth?

Are they going to breath fire? Otherwise, what do you think these mean?

Regarding their witnessing: will this be a worldwide broadcast, where TV news covers their statements, because they stopped the rain and breath fire?

 

Hi dear brother Utuna,
Could you please share with your arguments for that conviction? I am interested to hear your reasonings.

 

We need a chronology thread

 

Hi again SingleCell,

I was reading the thread you suggested. But I should go to sleep it is 1:04 in the night. But I will later come with additional thoughts on Rev 13, about the identity of the beast that comes out of the sea.

But shortly I can answer to your questions about stopping rain, fire from mouth.

Yes I think it is fully possible that the two witnesses can curse places on earth by ordering drought to come. Elijah could do that in the past. When he prayed that rain would not fall in Israel it really happened and it lasted 3,5 years. And when he prayed that it would start to rain after the 3,5 years it happened the very day.

I think it will be fully possible that they can breath huge firestreams from their mouths. Prophet Elisha if i am correct ordered fire to come down from heaven and it killed twice 50 soldiers and their commanders. What a self defence!

And such events will surely be on news world wide.

I really wish this to happen, that's why I believe it. I want this wicked world to know that they are wicked because they reject God's kingdom and God's moral standards and refuse to repent. Somebody should tell them and have supernatural powers. Otherwise people will just mock and kill the messenger. But these supernatural powers from God will make them unstoppable during 3,5 years.

But people will not anyway repent, the man of lawlessnes will inturn make miracles and try to discredit the 2 witnesses. Like when Moses performed miracles in Egypt. Then Pharaoh's magicians could also do miracles. And Pharaoh's heart did not soften. Just think the magicians could throw their rods to the ground and they became snakes. Never a such thing has happened today, but it happened then. But Aaron's rod became also a snake and it ate up those snakes. And then Aaron took up the snake and it returned to be a rod.

No wonder that the last remaining anointed can be changed from humans to spirits.

 

Thanks Joshua,
I am delighted that at least we understand those things in the same way. But still we have gaps in understanding each others viewpoints. But I am confident that searching of accurate knowledge will pay off.

 

NOOOooooo, pleaaaaaase ! Have mercy upon us ! For pity's sake !

Just at the thought of it, I'm already beginning to wither away.... feeling sick... wobbly legs... feeling life fleeing my body cells... ultimate depression looming already in the distance... Argh !

 

Thanks SingleCell for inviting me to add something to the thread about the beasts. I was reading what you were writing there for about an hour. You have really struggled to understand this subject.
I can add something so that we can understand what and when will occure.
The WT has taught that the beast that comes out of the sea is just the existing political system that got the power from the Devil longtime ago.
But if we take in account that Revelation 13 is a continuation to Revelation 12, we get another sequence of events.
That's what I understand to be the sequence of the events.
The tribulation time begins with the casting down of Satan to earth. WT taught that too. But afterwards they changed it to mean not great tribulation time but end time. But for me end time and tribulation time is the same. But WT got it wrong when they say it happened in 1914.
So, Satan was not hurled down to earth 1914. But when he is hurled down in the future, then naturally the calamities begin. Beause Satan is here in great anger knowing he has a short time left.
And what will Satan then do?
Revelation 13:1 is obviously a continuation to Revelation 12.
It says that it (the dragon) stood on the sand of the sea and then following verses tell that the Dragon gives the power to a beast coming out of the sea.
So because satan was not hurled down to earth in 1914 and has not yet been hurled down either , therefore satan has not given its power to the beast out of sea either.

Because of that we have not in power that Beast that comes out of the sea in Rev. 13.

What will be then the power, the beast that comes out of the sea after satan is hurled down to earth?

That beast is described to be a mixture of the previous beasts and has 7 heads and 10 horns and diadems.
So it should be a coalition of nations, strong enough to subdue nations opposing it. Great wars will be fought. This is the time of the 4 horsemen. The second horseman taking away the peace from the earth so that people would would slaughter each other as Rev. says.

What is the death strike this beast gets to one of its heads? That has not yet either occurred, because the beast has not either been formed. So only time will tell.
But I can speculate that the death strike could be a nuclear blast against one of the capitals of the beast's nations in the coalition.

Maybe North Korea or somebody else could deliver a such thing to one of the capitals of the beast coming out of the sea.

Then they will have a "good" reason to destroy all opposing nations by war. And people living in the nations consisting the beast will support the beast and say: who is like the wild beast and who can do battle with it?

Now Nato is a big power. But this beast will be greater.

And because this beast that comes out of the sea is described so differently from the beast that rises from the abyss, therefore I draw the conclusion that they are not the same. The beast that comes out of the abyss I understand to be UN, it is scarlet colored and has no diadems on its heads.

Then there is the beast with the horns of a lamb. That supports and speaks in behalf of the beast that rises from the sea. I believe it to be the anglo-american power speaking in behalf of the new beast, the new power, the new coalition of nations.
The anglo -American power have spoken many times of the need to form the New World Order. So this could well be the beast coming out of the sea. And finally when Satan is hurled down to earth it, the NWO will get the power from Satan, the dragon .

Then the image of the beast could be a virtual idol. Now almost everyone has a smartphone and the Beast could impose an app for worship of the beast and if you don't do it. They will see it, because they have the technology for that. The image could speak, because there is no problem to create an app with the image of the beast that speaks messages and commands the holder of the smartphone.
I am not sure that is what the image of the beast will be. But it seems it could well be that.

That's some thoughts to concider.

 

Dear brother Jan,

Here is my reasoning.

The apostle Paul said that flesh can't inherit God's kingdom :

"However, this I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom, neither does corruption inherit incorruption." - 1 Cor. 15:50

He also said that if the dwelling house from heaven isn't put on, then the anointed ones may be found naked.

"For in this dwelling house we do indeed groan, earnestly desiring to put on the one for us from heaven, so that, having really put it on, we shall not be found naked. In fact, we who are in this tent groan, being weighed down; because we want, not to put it off, but to put on the other, that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life." - 2 Cor. 5:2-4

Many Bible footnotes and encyclopedias (and common sense) say that here Paul is using an allegory for death or better said ; nothingness inherent to death.

The anointed ones can't receive a spiritual body unless they die :

"Nevertheless, someone will say: “How are the dead to be raised up? Yes, with what sort of body are they coming?â€￾ You unreasonable person! What you sow is not made alive unless first it dies; and as for what you sow, you sow, not the body that will develop, but a bare grain, it may be, of wheat or any one of the rest; but God gives it a body just as it has pleased him, and to each of the seeds its own body." - 1 Cor. 15:35-38

Please read again :

"Look! I tell YOU a sacred secret: We shall not all fall asleep [in death], but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed." - 1 Cor 15:51-52

Here, Paul doesn't say that the anointed ones who will be alive before the last trumpet is blown won't die. He just says that they won't fall asleep in death. They will die indeed, but will be resurrected right away and thus won't be found naked, which Paul feared, so to speak. They won't sleep in death, this latter expression connoting a certain amount of time spent in death.

Anyway, the physical body being what maintains life ; no physical body, no life. Life can't go on outside of the physical body. Maybe that you'll think that I'm being fussy here but that's what the Bible says, otherwise it would mean that something survives the death of the physical body to give life to the dwelling house from heaven.

In a more general way, Christ's brothers must die anyway because their fate is similar to their Lord and Master as shown below :

"For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we shall certainly also be [united with him in the likeness] of his resurrection;" - Romans 6:5

Some of Christ's brothers will die only, like John for example or those who will be changed but Paul was killed. Not all of them will die as martyrs.

 

That's a personal assessment untowardly worded as compelling proof. I'm sorry but it proves nothing.

It's as if you said that it's the truth because you think so or because it can't be otherwise. A bit like the WT when they say that we're for sure in the last days because it shows when we look all around us...

 

That's not what I said.

 

La Bible d'Alexandrie, that is, the LXX.

Footnote of Zech. 4:14

"According to Theodore of Mopsuestia, the word piótes means what is the greatest and most esteemed among mankind : the two "sons of fat" symbolize kingship and priesthood. ~ According to a Jewish tradition, the two olive trees that are located around the lampstand would symbolize Zorobabbel and Joshua. It's the same for Theodore of Mopsuestia, always faithful to the Jewish interpretation of the texts, for whom the two olives trees symbolize the kingship and the priesthood established by God, and the two twigs (v.12) are Zorobabbel and Joshua who transmit divine grace (the oil) for kingship and liturgy, which explains why they are called "sons of the fat".

Interestingly, priests and kings were anointed with olive oil.

"According to Methodius of Olympus, basing his argumentation upon Jg 9:8-15, the bramble only promises protection if it receives royal unction with olive oil, that is the olive oil that feeds the lampstand. The olive tree is the image of the Law given in the desert to Moses, the two twigs (kládoi) are the Law and the Prophets."

Bible du Semeur, footnote of Zech 4:14 :

[Zecharia's] vision will be taken again and renewed in Ap. 11 where the building of another Temple is described, God's new people. This building will be brought about through the witnessing work of the two witnesses who/which are at the same time lampstands and anointed ones : it's there the Christians, all kings and priests, who, thanks to the witness they bear to Jesus Christ, driven by the Spirit, will add new living stones to the building that is the Church which touchstone, having seven eyes, is Christ Jesus.

Osty Bible, footnote of Ap. 11:4

The description comes from Zecharia's book, and especially from Moses and Elijah's story, who are the incarnations of the Law and the Prophets who bear witness to Christ. (...) Anyway, that's the symbol of the witness born to Christ by the members of the Church,

Zechariah 4:11-14

The angel having expressed his astonishment at the prophet's ignorance, as he does in v. 5, gives this answer: These (the two bushes of the olive-tree, for which the olive-trees stood there) are the two benee yitshâr, sons of oil, i.e., endowed or supplied with oil (cf. Isa 5:1), which stand by the Lord of the whole earth, namely as His servants (on 'âmad 'al, denoting the standing posture of a servant, who rises above his master when seated, see 1 Kings 22:19, also Isa 6:2). The two children of oil cannot be the Jews and Gentiles (Cyril), or Israel and the Gentile world in their fruitful branches, i.e., their believing members (Kliefoth), because the candlestick is the symbol of the church of the Lord, consisting of the believers in Israel and also in the Gentile world. This is just as clear as the distinction between the olive-trees and the candlestick, to which they conduct the oil.

Others think of the prophets Haggai and Zechariah (J. D. Mich., Hofm., Baumg., etc.); but although there is no force in Koehler's objection, that in that case there would be a double order of prophets in Israel, since two prophets, both influenced by the Spirit of God, would not imply a double order of prophets, this explanation is decidedly precluded by the fact that two mortal men could not convey to the church for all ages the oil of the Spirit of God. The two sons of oil can only be the two media, anointed with oil, through whom the spiritual and gracious gifts of God were conveyed to the church of the Lord, namely, the existing representatives of the priesthood and the regal government, who were at that time Joshua the high priest and the prince Zerubbabel. These stand by the Lord of the whole earth, as the divinely appointed instruments through whom the Lord causes His Spirit to flow into His congregation.

Israel had indeed possessed both these instruments from the time of its first adoption as the people of Jehovah, and both were consecrated to their office by anointing. So far the fact that the olive-trees stand by the side of the candlestick does not appear to indicate anything that the prophet could not have interpreted for himself; and hence the astonishment expressed in the question of the angel in v. 13. Moreover, the vision was not intended to represent an entirely new order of things, but simply to show the completion of that which was already contained and typified in the old covenant. The seven-armed candlestick was nothing new in itself. All that was new in the candlestick seen by Zechariah was the apparatus through which it was supplied with oil that it might give light, namely, the connection between the candlestick and the two olive-trees, whose branches bore olives like bunches of ears, to supply it abundantly with oil, which was conveyed to each of its seven lamps through seven pipes.

The candlestick of the tabernacle had to be supplied every day with the necessary oil by the hands of the priests. This oil the congregation had to present; and to this end the Lord had to bestow His blessing, that the fruits of the land might be made to prosper, so that the olive-tree should bear its olives, and yield a supply of oil. But this blessing was withdrawn from the nation when it fell away from its God (cf. Joel 1:10). If, then, the candlestick had two olive-trees by its side, yielding oil in such copious abundance, that every one of the seven lamps received its supply through seven pipes, it could never fail to have sufficient oil for a full and brilliant light. This was what was new in the visionary candlestick; and the meaning was this, that the Lord would in future bestow upon His congregation the organs of His Spirit, and maintain them in such direct connection with it, that it would be able to let its light shine with sevenfold brilliancy.

(from Keil and Delitzsch Commentary on the Old Testament: New Updated Edition,
Electronic Database. Copyright © 1996 by Hendrickson Publishers, Inc. All rights reserved.)
​

SON

(10.) A production or offspring, as it were, from any parent: sons of the burning coal, that is, sparks which issue from burning wood (Job 5:7). "Son of the bow," that is, an arrow (4:19), because an arrow issues from a bow; but an arrow may also issue from a quiver, therefore, son of the quiver (Lam 3:13). "Son of the floor," threshed corn (Isa 21:10). "Sons of oil" (Zech 3:14), the branches of the olive tree.

(from McClintock and Strong Encyclopedia, Electronic Database.
Copyright © 2000, 2003, 2005, 2006. All rights reserved.)
​

SON

Used also for descendant. Figuratively too to express the characteristic: Barnabas means son of consolation; "sons of Belial," i.e. of worthlessness, children generally having their father's characteristic; "son of oil," abounding in oil or fruitfulness (Isa 5:1 margin).

(from Fausset's Bible Dictionary, Electronic Database Copyright ©
1998, 2003, 2006. All rights reserved.)
​

I would have found plenty other quotations that may have enabled me to connect the dots but it would have taken me a time that I don't have now. Later this week, maybe.

 

Thanks Utuna, now i understand how you reason.
But it does not necessarily convince me. Because I understand the word "change" very litteraly. We know that angels could very simply materialize, and dematerialize. They could in an instant swich from a human body to spirit body. Jesus could as you know after his resurrection materialize into different fleshly bodies. And in a moment just vanish.

So when Paul speaks about that some the remaining anointed will be changed, I understand that he is talking about change in that way. That the last remaining anointed will suddenly dematerialize like angels did in the past. Even all the disobedient angels that materialized befor the flood, suddenly dematerialized and went back to the spiritual realm.
I don't see any difficulty for God to make that happen will the last anointeds that are gathered to the Christ's marriage.

You said that all have to die, but how would that happen? Of course God can suddenly kill all the remaining anointed and in a second after that give them spiritual bodies.

Technically I think it is the same. That the remaining anointed are swiched from being a human to become a spirit. The body vanishes and a spiritual body is momentally created and att the thoughts and memories and the personality is downloaded in to the spiritual body.
Of course the the body could be left to decompose. But that would not explain why Paul uses the word "change".

So I hope you understand my reasoning.

 

Both !

You posit a given (true in that case, => Jehovah never changes), you apply it to a certain context/account and then you claim that it proves your interpretation of said context/account. The personal assessment is that you apply a given to a certain context/account, thinking that it fits and proves your interpretation.

That's like what I wrote above : they're two because two is written in black and white and two is two and not three.

That's not a proof, that's only a profession of faith.

If others are ok with that, that's fine by me.

 

Of course I understand your reasoning and I don't mind at all that you disagree with me. It'd be boring if everyone agreed with me.... for me and for y'all !

Angels are able to materialize because they already live outside a physical body, like someone who'd put on a coat, for example. For humans, the coat is what makes them live. No coat, no body, no life. If their bodies die, they're dead, even though they're resurrected 1 nanosecond afterwards inside another spiritual body. For humans, life is impossible outside a physical body. You can't divide the life and the body. The same life can't inhabit two bodies. Life must vanish from one body and go to the other one. Life vanishing from the physical body is death.... the porch light is blown...

"Most truly I say to YOU, Unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains just one [grain]; but if it dies, it then bears much fruit." - John 12:24

 

Yes that how I have understood it always too.

So, please tell me how you understand it will happen that nobody comes late to Christ's wedding? Will the last anointed wait till they die a natural death and only then Christ's wedding begins. Or will God cause a death of the human bodies of the last anointed in a last moment so that they will not be late to Christ's wedding?

I am just hoping we are in agreement.

 

And one more question,
How do you understand, will the last anointed's human bodies die simultaneously and will their dead human bodies vanish in a twinkling of an eye just as they die?