The "great tribulation" spoken about by Jesus...what is it ? Matt 24:21

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Jahsdisciple, Feb 4, 2013.

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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    That is a very astute question. There is no specific chronology tied to the "Peace & Security" so we have to defer given the structure of the scriptures. Sense there is sudden destruction after the call, it must be at least after Anglo-America goes down. Could be perhaps the moment Jesus is enthroned at the end of the 1260 days, or even when the disgusting thing is placed. It really is a matter of the exact definition of "sudden", but we will know we are in the time of the end years before that call.

    Yes, this is correct... Other then the Aug/Sept 2019 part...lol
     
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    john

    john Member

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    You quoted before I edited it out…but for the record, approximately July 24[SUP]th[/SUP] 2019, using 365-day years, sooner using 360-days.
    I asked where is it in your time line and it does have to chronologically fit in.
    And who and why are they saying it?

    Robert,

    If your lurking…I may end up having egg on my face (I hope I do, I am tired of paying rent. lol) I see that with John Kerry in that they are back to the "Peace & Security" talks.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    "Whenever it is that they are saying: “Peace and security!â€￾ then sudden destruction is to be instantly upon them just as the pang of distress upon a pregnant woman; and they will by no means escape. But ​YOU, brothers, ​YOU​ are not in darkness, so that that day should overtake ​YOU​ as it would thieves, for ​YOU​ are all sons of light and sons of day. We belong neither to night nor to darkness."

    The problem as I mentioned is this, there is no time duration mentioned. Now if one could connect this event to chronology I would be certain to listen but there simply just isn't any time frames mentioned.

    It does mention we wouldn't be in the dark, so obviously this is after the end has begun, and it's quite possible after Jesus is enthroned and spirit poured out because it says "sons of light". My guess is it coincides with the disgusting thing standing in a holy place, because after all it is right after that moment they are destroyed...

    John, appreciate our convo...
    :cool:
     
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    Diagonal

    Diagonal Guest

    John,

    Yeah, that is the dilemma for the WT, namely that, if one were to read
    prophecy honestly, one could not help but notice that the entity of God’s
    judicial wrath is also the one to be restored by Him in the aftermath,

    so that if ‘Jerusalem’ is picturing ‘Christendom,’ then CHRISTENDOM will
    be rebuild after Armageddon – something not very palatable to the
    current, self-appointed guardians of theocratic correctness.

    They can’t have it both ways – they really have to humble themselves
    and acknowledge that they are no more than a small part of
    ‘Christendom,’ along with all the rest of those professing faith in the
    God of the Bible, and of whom only a remnant with honest souls will survive.
     
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    Diagonal

    Diagonal Guest

    Shikinah,

    well, it appears to me that all Christian organizations, including the WT,
    will be incorporated into the new inclusive religious paradigm, with only
    individuals escaping from ‘Jerusalem,’ which, after all, is representative
    of ALL religions professing to be God’s people.

    Hence the call to ‘get out of her my people,’ because only spiritually
    alert individuals will be able to recognize the transition from
    Christianity to the ‘incoming kingdom of God.’

    Those not going along with the new, all inclusive world view will be
    composed of a motley crew of people we perhaps would least expect
    to take a stand for what is true and right, while those who we thought
    to be pillars in our congregation may well join in with the incoming
    world administration.
     
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    john

    john Member

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    Yes there is:p…it is based on what “that dayâ€￾ is referring to. Let's say it is referring to Jesus’ coming after the GT is cut short. (Matt 24:30) Then in that case you would simply place it into your time frame at the point you have that event of Jesus’ occurring. So first, what we need to know is who is saying it and why are they? Then we will know what destruction is fitting for who “they/themâ€￾ are. So then we should be able to know what "that day" is referring to.

    "Whenever it is that they are saying: “Peace and security!â€￾ then sudden destruction is to be instantly upon them just as the pang of distress upon a pregnant woman; and they will by no means escape. But ​YOU, brothers, ​YOU​ are not in darkness, so that that day should overtake ​YOU​ as it would thieves, for ​YOU​ are all sons of light and sons of day. We belong neither to night nor to darkness."
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Then I would have to say it would best fit on the day Jesus is enthroned at the end of the 1260 days, because it is on one single day that the 7th trumpet, 7th bowl and first six seals all occur. So if this is the day that hail comes down upon the men and also the day that the holy spirit is poured out, then sudden destruction must be when those hide themselves in the caves, (Rev 6:15). Now if that's where we would place it there is still 30 days after that before the disgusting thing is placed, and 75 days in chronology until the new world comes in...
     
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    john

    john Member

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    first, what we need to know is who is saying it and why are they?:confused:

     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Well it sure reminds me of Mt 24:39; "and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away"

    But I have to say its never really been an issue to with because it will be one of the very last prophecies to be fulfilled and we will know 100% the end is here by the time this occurs anyway...
     
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    Shikinah

    Shikinah Member

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    Thank you for that explanation,
    So who do you think the two witnesses are in the book of Revelation,
    because I find the JW's interpretation slightly lacking.


    Shikinah
     
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    Diagonal

    Diagonal Guest

    Shikinah,

    both the work of the ‘two witnesses’ and the spreading of the good news
    of the kingdom only seem to make sense when the NWO is well under way.

    At that time there will be no apathy towards the message as it is today,
    while the world still seems to be drowning in its problems with no
    solution in sight.

    Just imagine preaching during the prosperous years of the Nazi era in
    Germany - when there was no unemployment, no crime, no corruption –
    that all this prosperity and unity of the population was just due to a trick
    from Satan,

    and see how much visceral hatred will come your way from people
    who live in peace and security and ‘freedom from care’ amongst a
    global brotherhood of like-minded people.
     
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    Jahsdisciple

    Jahsdisciple Guest

    Hi Diagonal,
    My personal view at the moment,which has taken a while to formulate after reading a few anointed blogs,is that the good news of the Kingdom will be preached in a true sence when it is "born"...when all members have been proven and thus it can be born. Rev12:2. So until they have been sifted and sealed the Kingdom cant be born. We may preach about what the kingdom will do for mankind...but whatever has been preached thus far...its NOT about the Kingdoms birth. It hasnt happened.

    How can the preaching of the Kingdom really happen and Matt 24:14 fulfilled if it hasnt been born ? How can the end come if the preaching of the newly established Kingdom hasnt taken place ?..as opposed to the work of JWs who preach it has been born..when it hasnt ? So a new and differant type of preaching will happen with Jesus brothers in the lead.

    Once Jesus brothers have been proven and the Kingdom born,Jesus arrives..that is,1st appears to the members of the Kingdom. He "comes along side" His now true brothers,which is what parousia means. These are then apointed the real FDS. Because satan has no longer has the legal right to rule and its him that keeps this system going so he has something to rule over...that power is taken away.

    The result is that the system then collapses and goes into anarchy. Its during this time that Matt 24:14 has its fullfilment. We will under the work of the Kingdom members be part of a work to bring attention to these proven members of the Kingdom. They are direct representatives of it. Those anointed claiming that now are liars !

    It will be exciting to really preach that message in a time worse than any other time in history. Joy for us because we will be able to meet these true brothers of Jesus. But "woe for the earth and the sea" because satan knows his time is short.
    After the preaching has had the same effect as the 10 miracles of Egypt,then the end will come !
     
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    Diagonal

    Diagonal Guest

    Jahsdisciple,

    I somewhat disagree with Watchman’s expectation that the great tribulation
    will be on mankind in general, because Jesus said in Luke that it will only be
    on ‘this people,’ meaning ‘Jerusalem,’ namely those Christians who, although
    not worshipping the beast, are nevertheless holding fast to their unscriptural
    religious dogmas and organizations.

    Further, I have problems with his idea of Christ appearing in the ‘inner chambers,’
    so to speak, to His disciples BEFORE His public coming on the clouds of Heaven,
    precisely because He warned us against that sort of thing.

    Apart from that I pretty much agree with your view.
     
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    Shikinah

    Shikinah Member

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    I also think that the preaching work now being done by the JW's,
    is temporary and will have served it's purpose. I also believe that there is a much
    greater preaching work to be done amidst the so called time of peace and security
    and leading up to the tribulation.
    But who are classed as the two witnesses?
    Is the scripture which says they will be lying in the street dead for three days,
    and the giving of gifts celebrating over their death literal or symbolic?
    I have a feeling there will be some supernatural phenomenon,
    as there has been in past events upon the earth, but I guess if you do not know the scriptures,
    this is where you will not know whats from Jehovah & what's from satan.
    As the scriptures say that man will not know the way out,
    and will faint out of fear.
    What exciting times we are living in, and what a blessing
    to know the truth :)
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    "And I will cause my two witnesses to prophesy a thousand two hundred and sixty days dressed in sackcloth.†These are [symbolized by] the two olive trees and the two lampstands and are standing before the Lord of the earth." (Rev 11:3,4)

    "And I proceeded to answer and say to him: “What do these two olive trees on the right side of the lampstand and on its left side mean?†Then I answered the second time and said to him: “What are the two bunches of twigs of the olive trees that, by means of the two golden tubes, are pouring forth from within themselves the golden [liquid]? So he said to me: “Do you not really know what these [things] mean?†In turn I said: “No, my lord.†"Accordingly he said: “These are the two anointed ones who are standing alongside the Lord of the whole earth.†(Zec 4:11-14)


    “‘Hear, please, O Joshua the high priest, you and your companions who are sitting before you, for they are men [serving] as portents; for here I am bringing in my servant Sprout! For, look! the stone that I have put before Joshua! Upon the one stone there are seven eyes. Here I am engraving its engraving,’ is the utterance of Jehovah of armies, ‘and I will take away the error of that land in one day.’ (Zec 3:8,9)

    "And the word of Jehovah continued to occur to me, saying: “The very hands of Ze‧rub′ba‧bel have laid the foundation of this house, and his own hands will finish [it]. And you will have to know that Jehovah of armies himself has sent me to ​YOU​ people" (Zec 4:8,9)

    "And I saw, I Daniel, and, look! there were two others standing, one on the bank here of the stream and the other on the bank there of the stream. Then one said to the man clothed with the linen, who was up above the waters of the stream: “How long will it be to the end of the wonderful things?†And I began to hear the man clothed with the linen, who was up above the waters of the stream, as he proceeded to raise his right [hand] and his left [hand] to the heavens and to swear by the One who is alive for time indefinite: “It will be for an appointed time, appointed times and a half. And as soon as there will have been a finishing of the dashing of the power of the holy people to pieces, all these things will come to their finish.†(Dan 12:5-7)

    "And, look! there were six men coming from the direction of the upper gate that faces to the north, each one with his weapon for smashing in his hand; and there was one man in among them clothed with linen, with a secretary’s inkhorn at his hips, and they proceeded to come in and stand beside the copper altar." (Eze 9:2)
     
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    Shikinah

    Shikinah Member

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    Hello Joshuastone,
    These are very deep scriptures and I wouldn't profess to say that I can even make head or tail of them. Have you quoted Daniel because the scripture speaks about two "others" standing on the bank and on the stream. Are these two suppose to be Angels and are they also suppose to be the two lampstands/witnesses in Rev?
    I have heard that some think that the two witnesses are Enoch & Elijah as they both have not seen physical death. Enoch also took a stroll with God and ended up walking right on up into heaven with Him. And Elijah He was caught up to heaven in a fiery chariot. Both these men went up into heaven alive in their physical bodies.

    Shikinah
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    The two witnesses are two anointed individuals here on earth. They have a special connection with scripture and their relationship with Jehovah and Christ Jesus. It really all comes down to Jesus story about the wedding party. When the groom arrives and finds the reception empty he goes to the streets and invites the lowly to be his guests. That is the way it is now with the state of the GB.

    So, there are metaphors in scripture for these two, including Moses and Elijah at the transfiguration.

    Specifically why the two witnesses of our day are represented by biblical characters of the past are because of parallels in experiences. Such as, like Joshua the high priest being the first to be chosen as high priest after returning from Babylon, also the Joshua of our time will be the first given the stone with 7 eyes...

    Zerubbabel of old being the one to lead the Jews from captivity, as well in our day this one will be instrumental in leading back Gods people and establishing a new Jerusalem.

    Dan 12 describes a conversation between these two anointed as they discuss the length of the captivity in that of 1260 days and their message to the world. After all that chapter contains allot of their work...
     
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    Diagonal

    Diagonal Guest

    Joshua,

    you said that Zerubbabel, as a type of one of the two witnesses in our day,
    “will be instrumental in leading back God’s people and establishing a new
    Jerusalem.â€

    I wonder if you made that comment just as a general statement, or if you
    had something more specific in mind - and if you could elaborate a bit on
    what you mean with ‘God’s people’ and ‘a new Jerusalem?’

    By the way, I don’t profess to know the identity of the two witnesses,
    as this seems to be merely of academic interest at this stage; a bit like
    knowing what the weather will be like five years from now.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Another one of my fav subjects... :)

    Check out Zerubbabels great privilege here!

    "Accordingly he answered and said to me: “This is the word of Jehovah to Ze‧rub′ba‧bel, saying, ‘“Not by a military force, nor by power, but by my spirit,†Jehovah of armies has said. Who are you, O great mountain? Before Ze‧rub′ba‧bel [you will become] a level land. And he will certainly bring forth the headstone. There will be shoutings to it: “How charming! How charming!â€â€™â€

    And the word of Jehovah continued to occur to me, saying: “The very hands of Ze‧rub′ba‧bel have laid the foundation of this house, and his own hands will finish [it]. And you will have to know that Jehovah of armies himself has sent me to ​YOU​ people. For who has despised the day of small things? And they will certainly rejoice and see the plummet in the hand of Ze‧rub′ba‧bel. These seven are the eyes of Jehovah. They are roving about in all the earth.†(Zech 3:6-10)


    After discussing the two witnesses in verses 1-4 It says that the Zerubbabel of our day will have "Laid the foundation of this house." So in our world whether that be a place to go online, a news report from him, a new legal entity like the WTS, what ever form it comes in Zerubbabel will have a wonderful opportunity in service to Jehovah. Wish I knew who this person is 100% already, I think that would be cool...

    You may also notice that again the seven eyes are mentioned of Joshua, these eyes will be obvious to those close to the two witnesses as events in the time of the end unfold.
     
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    Diagonal

    Diagonal Guest

    Joshua,

    ok, thanks for your thoughts on this, and I agree with you about the
    possible prophetic nature of this text, but have yet to see how far
    the analogies are meant to be taken in our day.

    From the way I read Jesus’ words in Mat.24, it looks like the chosen
    ones will be scattered in some sense until the coming of Christ on
    the clouds of Heaven to gather them together to meet up with
    Him in the air.
     

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