The "great tribulation" spoken about by Jesus...what is it ? Matt 24:21

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Jahsdisciple, Feb 4, 2013.

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    Shikinah

    Shikinah Member

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    Daniel 9:27 “And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed.Who is he? and where will this sacrifice and grain offering be, which has a wing of abomination, I doubt it's the Watchtower at brooklyn. Note it says he will put a stop to these sacrifices, so this entity will be making public sacrifices.

    2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
    4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of the God professing to be a God.

    The scriptures say it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness gets revealed..The great apostasy hasn't even reached it's climax, yes there is apostasy within the organisation but not on a grand scale it's very under cover. I think the great apostasy the bible speaks about, is of the Great Harlot the Catholic church who sits on seven hills and her Christian daughters, who will soon apostasies in a huge way, when they abandon any so call biblical teachings they have left. They will welcome in the teachings of Buddhism, shintoism, Kabbalah, New Age practices and every eastern misticism under the sun.

    I think many of us fail to see the bigger picture, and I believe Israel will have a major fulfilment in these prophesies. Do you think the nation of Israel was sent up just for the sake of it? do you think all these wars in the middle east surrounding Israel is just mere coincidence? I think the operation of error will fool many people Jehovah's Witnesses included. I believe The JW are Gods people, but I also believe there are others who worship Yehowah, Yahweh or Jehovah in israel, Africa Ethiopia and other countries. While we are focusing everything on the Watchtower we are not watching what is going on around us.

    I have read accounts where the catholic church wants to rule from Jerusalem and so do the Zionists who plan to set up or build a third temple. Perhaps this is where the man of lawlessness the false prophet is revealed. Perhaps this is why the old pope stood down to make way for one which would be more charismatic in nature. While all of this is unfolding the WT is none the wiser, they are so caught up in their 1914 fiasco they are in a spiritual coma. We Jehovah Witnesses like the former Israelites like to think it's all about us and couldn't possibly involve anyone or anything else. Yes it is about us, but our own operation of error with 1914, has become a major stumbling block which has kept us focussed on just that, and not whats really going on in the world.

    I mentioned several years ago on Roberts site how the UN itself is a "religious entity" as it has a prayer room and black stone alter in the centre of it and how it takes religious instruction from the Lucis trust who was formerly known as the lucifer trust. The video below shows how they are planning to set up the United Nations of religion, a UN council resolution 181 and one of the instigators is chief Rabbi Yona Metzgar an Ashkenazi Jew. You can skip the intro as it is made by a Christian couple who starts with a prayer, I just want people to see how close we are to these things unfolding I did a lot of research into all this several years ago, and was amazed to actually find this info with everything on one video.

    I'm not saying I am right or that everything on this video is accurate but there are some strange events unfolding and Jesus said to keep on the watch not just focused on the Watchtower.
    If you don't watch the whole of this video just listen to the Jewish horn which is played right at the very end, it is simply amazing, wish they'd play it at the Kingdom Hall:)

    http://youtu.be/l4pylLEsBm0
    Christian video showing the 181 UN resolution and Rabbi Yona Metzger



    http://youtu.be/FSoUCoEKlxw
    United Religious Order with Ted Turner..

    Shikinah
     

  2. Hi Josh:

    How long does your timeline stretch into the future?

    frank
     
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    Diagonal

    Diagonal Guest

    Shikinah,

    yes, the abominable, anti-Christian beast will make a covenant with the
    representatives of Christianity for 7 years, but after 3 ½ years it will stop
    all professing of Christ, which is the removal of the constant sacrifice
    of lips – the bearing of witness to Him as Lord – which is also the coming
    apostasy from the Christian faith that was prophesied.

    At that stage too, we will become objects of hatred by all nations because
    of His Name, when the antichrist replaces Him as supreme dignitary in
    His own realm here on earth.

    It is interesting to note that it now slowly seems to dawn on the WT that
    ‘Jerusalem’ is not just ‘Christendom,’ as they always used to say,
    but also includes them, when God’s prophesied judgment falls on it.

    Although this has not yet become official dogma, it is clearly on the
    agenda as far as ‘refinements’ are concerned; that is why it has only
    been tentatively raised in the ‘question from readers’ segment.

     
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    john

    john Member

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    Hey Josh,

    Sorry if I wasn’t clear…when I asked if the “accounts†were counterparts of one another. I said it assuming that you knew about the account of Ariel in Isaiah. I am not saying that Ariel, Gog and the Northerner are the same entity, when I say account...so let me rephrase it.

    Gog against Jehovah’s people
    Northerner against Jehovah’s people
    The attackers of Ariel (Jehovah’s people)

    Are those accounts counterparts of one another?
    Do all red make up the same identity?

    Diagonal,

    Are you are referring to what I posted from 1961?


     
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    Diagonal

    Diagonal Guest

    John,

    yes, sorry, you are right, that quote is indeed from ’61 and by now a
    bit dated, lol.

    I remember reading it recently somewhere but must have confused
    it with a similar statement of more modern times,

    which might have been the ‘Isaiah’ commentary, where vague admission
    was being made that ‘Jerusalem’ and the negative comments about it
    could also pertain to ‘God’s spirit directed organization,’

    which would be quite a revolutionary thought to most hardcore,
    ‘Christendom’ bashing witnesses - although that is precisely what
    the Word of God indicates,

    in that it views JW’s as just another part of Christendom, the realm of
    those professing belief in the God of the Bible, who just happens to
    be YHWH,
    whichever way you want to pronounce that Name.
     
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    Jahsdisciple

    Jahsdisciple Guest

    A "great apostasy" is not just talking about the size or numbers involved,but the significance of the apostacy. This is why those who are invited because they were fine seed,but then allowed a place in their hearts for satan to enter...could thus be called apostate in the ultimate sense. This IS the greatest apostacy amongst humans because when invited they became part of a covenant to be Christs bride. They then left that as Jesus illustration of the wheat and weeds show.

    Those who have gone against this calling are spiritualy adulterous...which is why the Harlot of Revelation applies primarily to those invited who run the Org of JWs,but also includes any invited who fail in their staying loyal to the covenant they are in. A Harlot is someone who comprimises moraly for money,but more importantly for position and power. Those invited anointed who are the "GB" have sacrificed their covenant position for dominance in the Org of JWs. They are drunk with power. Power and position corrupted them to want what they could have had,but wanted it before the right time.

    The Harlot of Revelation are spiritualy adulterous invited annointed who have become weeds and thus are apostate wheat.

    If you are invited to be part of the 144k as part of the bride,Jehovahs HS them operates within you to KNOW you are part of this covenant with a heavenly hope. Its more than just saying "my hope is to go to heaven"

    The Catholic church was NEVER in a covenant with Jehovah as invited ones. They never had the truth of any sort. So how could they become apostate if they didnt have even have truth to begin with ? To be aposate is to have more than the truth which they never had.
     
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    john

    john Member

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    Perhaps you may be thinking of this.

    4-15-12 WT p. 26 “As events unfold during the great tribulation, Christians will need to heed instructions from God’s Word and organization. For example, Jesus’ command to “begin fleeing to the mountains†has a modern-day application. Just what form our flight will take remains to be seen. However, we can be sure that Jehovah will make clear the meaning of those instructions when the time comes for us to follow them.â€

    The WTS has convinced JW’s that the holy place is Christendom and claim that JW’s are no longer part of Christendom, but yet still try to squeeze in there that JW’s will need to flee.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Frank,

    I'm not sure of your question for I do not believe the time of the end has begun. Could you rephrase?
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    I was wondering if I could pick your mind a little bit. How do you connect the stopping of the "sacrifices and gift offering" of the "one week" of Dan 9:27 with the removal of the "constant feature"?

    If you believe this final week is 7 years, what about the rest of the 69 weeks?

    What begins and ends the 7th week scripturally?

    Thanks... :cool:

    Interesting, seems to be a good way to stand in a holy place after seeing Jesus in the clouds and having the world pray to it to give it power to fight against Gods kingdom. How deluded...
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    I was wondering if I could pick your mind a little bit. How do you connect the stopping of the "sacrifices and gift offering" of the "one week" of Dan 9:27 with the removal of the "constant feature"?

    If you believe this final week is 7 years, what about the rest of the 69 weeks?

    What begins and ends the 7th week scripturally?

    Thanks... :cool:
     
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    Shikinah

    Shikinah Member

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    Hello J.D I agree that the anointed are also part of this, but I also believe it's the catholic church, weren't they the first ever christian religion to spread the word of God world wide, so they made some form of covenant to represent God on earth. You see I can't relate the following quotes to the JW's infact the Jehovah's Witnesses are not even viewed as Christians by the world they are seen as a cult. No other christian group spread the gospel throughout the world and caused so much bloodshed at the same time. They have misled so many with it's false teachings that these teachings have infiltrated down to the other harlots. I think some of the watchtower anointed are guilty of idolatry and apostasy but compared to this lot, and what it will become is why she will be totally destroyed. Only time will tell how apostate the Watchtower will become during the merger of the coming one world religion we'll have to wait and see.

    1. The great harlot who sits on many waters
    2. Mother of Harlots (mother of other prostitutes)
    3. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits
    4. She [the Whore] is clothed in purple and scarlet (bishops wear certain purple vestments and cardinals wear certain red vestments)
    5. Decked with gold and precious stones and pearls (the pectoral cross worn by bishops & cardinals are incrusted with gems)
    6. Having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication (the most important of the sacred vessels are of gold)
    7. Great Whore was seen drunken with â€￾the blood of the holy ones, and with the blood of the martyrs of Yahusha



    http://youtu.be/qPYTUqAXQhw


    Shikinah
     
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    Shikinah

    Shikinah Member

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    Like I said before, I do not have the insight to understand these prophesies, I can only relate to what I see unfolding..Just out of interest do you still go to meetings:confused:
     
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    Shikinah

    Shikinah Member

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    "but after 3 ½ years it will stop
    all professing of Christ, which is the removal of the constant sacrifice
    of lips – the bearing of witness to Him as Lord"

    This seems to make sense, as the first half would probably bring about the false sense of "peace and security" ?

    "At that stage too, we will become objects of hatred by all nations because
    of His Name, when the antichrist replaces Him as supreme dignitary in
    His own realm here on earth"

    Do you think it will only be J.W's that will be turned on as there are others who will not worship the beast, do you think during this time JW's will preach to these other individuals underground?


    Shikinah
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    I would concur with one exception. Remember there are two events of coming against Gods people 1290 days apart.

    I guess I am assuming you believe Gog is part of the three unclean spirits of the sixth bowl?

    So the small horn coming against the constant feature is a differn't time from when the sixth bowl is poured out, but they are from the same source...
     
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    john

    john Member

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    I don’t know who Gog is? For that matter who the Northerner will prove to be or who the attackers are…but whomever, I think there are the same accounts/timeframe as the DT/holy place.

    Now that you wrote as you did and said:

    I don’t see that to be the case here. The accounts of Gog, the northerner, attackers of Ariel… all have Jehovah rescuing his then disciplined repentant people and destroying those said forces, stating that no strangers/violators will come upon his people again. In any case you say that an event comes upon God’s people at the start of the 1290 and then again at the 1290[SUP]th[/SUP] day, but the fact is that what you are saying is that whatever came upon his people at the start, really has to be an on going event through out that whole time frame, just to then be brought down completely. It makes no sense to say that two named publications will stop being printed, while the entity that prints them is still operational and allowed to function. When the WT and Awake stop being printed it will be because the printing presses stopped at the WTS due to the downfall of the org. That is what the account in Joel depicts as well as Gog/Ariel account.


    11-1-04 WT As we near the end, Satan will cause the nations to manifest their hatred against Jehovah’s people. (Ezekiel 38:10-12, 14-16)

    [[SUP]10[/SUP] “This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, ‘And it must occur in that day that things will come up into your heart, and you will certainly think up an injurious scheme; [SUP]11[/SUP] and you must say: “I shall go up against the land of open rural country. I shall come in upon those having no disturbance, dwelling in security, all of them dwelling without wall, and they do not have even bar and doors.†[SUP]12[/SUP] It will be to get a big spoil and to do much plundering, in order to turn your hand back upon devastated places reinhabited and upon a people gathered together out of the nations, [one] that is accumulating wealth and property,[those] who are dwelling in the center of the earth…[SUP] 14[/SUP] “Therefore prophesy, O son of man, and you must say to Gog, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: “Will it not be in that day when my people Israel are dwelling in security that you will know [it]? [SUP]15[/SUP] And you will certainly come from your place, from the remotest parts of the north, you (Gog/the northerner) and many peoples with you, all of them riding on horses, a great congregation, even a numerous military force. [SUP]16[/SUP] And you will be bound to come up against my people Israel, like clouds to cover the land. In the final part of the days it will occur, and I shall certainly bring you against my land, for the purpose that the nations may know me when I sanctify myself in you before their eyes, O Gog.â€â€˜](Joel 1:6 For there is a nation that has come up into my land, mighty and without number.)

    Ezekiel 39: [SUP]21[/SUP] “‘And I will set my glory among the nations; and all the nations will have to see my judgment that I have executed and my hand that I have placed among them. [SUP]22[/SUP] And those of the house of Israel will have to know that I am Jehovah their God from that day and forward. [SUP]23[/SUP] And the nations will have to know that it was because of their error that they, the house of Israel, went into exile, on account of the fact that they behaved unfaithfully toward me, so that I concealed my face from them and gave them into the hand of their adversaries, and they kept falling, all of them, by the sword.[SUP]24[/SUP] According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions I did with them, and I kept concealing my face from them.’[SUP]25[/SUP] “Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, ‘Now is when I shall bring back the captive ones of Jacob and actually have mercy upon all the house of Israel; and I will show exclusive devotion for my holy name. (Joel 3:1“For, look! in those days and in that time, when I shall bring back the captive ones of Judah and Jerusalem,)[SUP]26[/SUP] And they will have borne their humiliation and all their unfaithfulness with which they have acted toward me, when they dwell on their soil in security, with no one to make [them] tremble.(Joel 1:18 O how the domestic animal has sighed! [How] the droves of cattle have wandered in confusion! For there is no pasturage for them. Also, the droves of the sheep have been the ones made to bear guilt.) [SUP]27[/SUP] When I bring them back from the peoples and I actually collect them together out of the lands of their enemies, I will also sanctify myself among them before the eyes of many nations.’[SUP]28[/SUP] “‘And they will have to know that I am Jehovah their God, when I send them in exile to the nations and actually bring them together upon their soil, so that I shall leave none of them remaining there any longer. [SUP]29[/SUP] And I shall no longer conceal my face from them, because I will pour out my spirit upon the house of Israel,’ is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah.â€

    6-1-81 WT p.30 Joel 3 2-16, 19 It tells us why Jehovah is angry with the nations—because of the way they have treated his servants. They scattered them among the nations, making slaves of them. Also, they robbed Jehovah’s temple of its gold, silver and other desirable things, and brought these into their own temples. They did violence to the sons of Judah and shed innocent blood.

    Quote from Ciro Aulicino speaking about Gog’s attack. “What the Future Holds†talk-
    [“What's the point? Brothers, we should expect them to despoil us of our human rights. We should expect them to confiscate all of Jehovah's belongings and close down and take possession of all our branches, factories, depots, kingdom halls, assembly halls, everything. Don't make any mistake about it. We are all in this together. We have a common enemy.â€]
    (Joel 1:17 Dried figs have shriveled under their shovels. Storehouses have been laid desolate. Barns have been torn down, for [the] grain has dried up. 18 O how the domestic animal has sighed! [How] the droves of cattle have wandered in confusion! For there is no pasturage for them. 20The beasts of the field also keep longing for you, because the channels of water have dried up, and fire itself has devoured the pasture grounds of the wilderness.â€) 6-1-65 WT This “slave†class serves as an earthly channel of communication for God’s people,…Without this means of communication they would be scattered and lost.

    Daniel 11:31 And there will be arms that will stand up, proceeding from him; and they will actually profane the sanctuary, the fortress, and remove the constant [feature]. “And they will certainly put in place the disgusting thing that is causing desolation. [SUP]32[/SUP] “And those who are acting wickedly against [the] covenant, he will lead into apostasy by means of smooth words. But as regards the people who are knowing their God, they will prevail and act effectively. [SUP]33[/SUP] And as regards those having insight among the people, they will impart understanding to the many. And they will certainly be made to stumble by sword and by flame, by captivity and by plundering, for [some] days.

    9-15-91 WT In his role as Gog of Magog, denoting his present degraded position, Satan will marshal his earthly forces for an all-out attack on God’s people. Faith in divine protective powers in behalf of Jehovah’s Witnesses will be put to the test. But we can have faith that as God’s Word foretold, Jehovah will rescue his people.—Ezekiel 38:16; 39:18-23.

    (Ezekiel 39:23 And the nations will have to know that it was because of their error that they, the house of Israel, went into exile, on account of the fact that they behaved unfaithfully toward me, so that I concealed my face from them and gave them into the hand of their adversaries, and they kept falling, all of them, by the sword.
    Luke 21:[SUP]24[/SUP] and they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.
    Revelation 11:2 But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple [sanctuary], cast it clear out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.
    Joel 2:17 “Between the porch and the altar let the priests, the ministers of Jehovah, weep and say, ‘Do feel sorry, O Jehovah, for your people, and do not make your inheritance a reproach, for nations to rule over them. Why should they say among the peoples: “Where is their God?â€
    Daniel 11:33B And they will certainly be made to stumble by sword and by flame, by captivity and by plundering, for [some] days.

     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    No, I didn't mean those events in Isaiah, Ezekiel were separated by times...

    When the constant feature is removed it would be the complete collapse of the entity that is offering up that feature... I agree, I just tend to be extremely specific without adding more then what is said while speak of any given scripture...
     
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    john

    john Member

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    Ok I see what you are saying…I was confusing what you said about the start of the 2300 days with the start of the 1290 days.

    So you have the WTS going down with the start of the 1290 days…this brings the end to the org itself (the captivity by the northerner?) doing away with the constant feature?

    So what are the news reports that start the 2300 days? Are they on going through out the 965 days until the start of the 1290 days? Are they what lead to the WTS going down? Are JW’s still active during this time frame (965)…going to meetings and preaching work?
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Correct...

    Basically this is the apostasy that comes first. (2Th 2:3,4) Something world news appropriate and the man of lawlessness will be revealed. So we will see someone in the GB declared as breaking laws. This is the first trumpet and first bowl of Rev.

    During those 965 days before the constant feature goes down revelation says a third will fall away, just as Dan 8:10 also reminds us, while the constant feature is still intact. (Dan 8:13,14)

    The constant feature goes down at the fourth trumpet and bowl.

    This is exactly what leads to the constant feature going down. It takes time for courts and processes to occur, but think about it, once we see those news reports we will know exactly what day all other events will occur. We will know the end is here instantly. That is the very next prophecy to occur, the one we are waiting for.
     
  19. Hi Josh:

    If the kickoff event happened tomorrow, how far into the future does your timeline extend?

    frank
     
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    john

    john Member

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    Josh,

    Where is the saying of peace and security in your time line? Who say it and what does the destruction result in?

    Anyhow, I don’t see that happening based on current world events. The collapse of the financial system and the Syria and Iran conflict, etc… will come to a head before the time we would have to wait for it to occur counting from the start of the 2300 days, which have not started yet.
    In line with Shikinah, I would have to say that it is more likely that you will hear world news pertaining to the catholic church, before you would hear it about the WTS. And the MOL is not revealed by an news report, but is said to be by the one who is acting as a restraint getting out of the way. Perhaps the pope resigning is getting out of the way. LOL:D

    [SUP]6[/SUP] And so now YOU know the thing that acts as a restraint, with a view to his being revealed in his own due time. [SUP]7[/SUP] True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work; but only till he who is right now acting as a restraint gets to be out of the way.

    Frank,

    Your answer is 6 years 4 months and 20 days.:rolleyes:
     
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