Someone at another forum asks this rather pertinent question:

"If Jehovah didn’t use WT/ organization, then, when Jesus comes back to judge his house FIRST, who’s he going to judge???"

I have a simple answer for this, one that would not be tolerated at that site, which ironically is somewhat akin to what WT used to teach namely, that it applied to 'Christendom,' at the time Jesus approved WT as the 'faithful slave' in 1918.

Only I would say that this is still future and that the 'house of God' is comprised of all people representing and misrepresenting Him - the God of the Bible - here on earth, relegating WT / JWs ironically as just another part of what they, somewhat contemptuously, refer to as 'Christendom.'

I welcome reasoned views in agreement or to the contrary,

respectfully,

Harry

 

Thanks for the welcome and your reply, Joshua;

Same here; I see 'the apostasy' connected with the 'healing' of the 'sword stroke' on the incipient NWO beast, when 'all the earth will follow it with admiration and worship it along with Satan,' something WT is on record saying that Jehovah would never allow such a thing as 'united global Devil worship' on His planet. Re 13

I can also see all religions unite under the 'social justice' banner with AI being in charge under a global 'social credit' system and a CBDC cashless digital economy, where 'buying and selling,' or participating in society at all, will be impossible without worshiping the beast and receiving its mark.

This coming socialist utopia will appear to be the kingdom of God on earth as proclaimed by WT and Bahia'h etc, together with implementation of Noahide laws, to if possible mislead even the chosen ones, if they weren't kept from the 'hour of test' by Jesus, as promised. Re 3:10, Mat 6:13

You seem to expect a seven year period for the end [2028 -2035], which would correspond to the seventieth week of Daniel 9 that is yet to be fulfilled, although I have no idea about the actual years when this is destined to occur, albeit at half of the week we should be able to discern the 'disgusting thing standing in a holy place,' which I see as the revived NWO beast replacing Christianity as the hope for mankind and fulfillment of the kingdom of God on earth.

That's my take so far,

Harry

 

Good morning brother,

so when Jesus counsels one of the seven congregations to buy gold from Him I see it as applying representatively to all the anointed throughout the 2000 years of His spiritual presence up to His return, whereas the inability to buy and sell not just gold - and not only from Him - but every other thing besides gold, will only be during the 42 month reign of the beast and will apply to mankind at large of whoever refuses the mark, including the unchosen who are not addressed by Jesus to buy gold from Him.

Have you thought about the possibility that there is a Satanic elite that owns and controls the whole world and wants to force everybody to worship their god by any means possible, including starvation and exclusion from society by making it impossible to buy bread and sell their labor for it?

The WT has JWs convinced that such a scenario is just a fanciful conspiracy theory and apostate driven lies by mentally diseased people, but maybe God's word means what it says and is true after all?

But its life and life only, and theirs to choose.

Instead of buying gold from Jesus, eight million preachers of the kingdom have outsourced their duty to test the inspired expressions of those claiming to represent Him to the functionaries of a Pennsylvania publishing corporation. 2 Ki 17:32; 1 Joh 4:1

The 70 heptomads of Daniel 9 may need a thread of their own, because there is a lot of detail to process.

As to the disgusting thing standing in a holy place and removing the constant feature, I see that as the revived NWO imitating and replacing and trampling upon Christianity for 42 month in the near future. Re 13, 11:1-3

In your saying that: "The healed death stroke is on only one head, not the entire beast, as in Rev 17." - that is true, although verse 12 [Re 13] does say that the wild beast as such received the death stroke, not just the head, but affecting the whole body.


Ok, thanks for your input, I'm off to work now,

Harry

 

In Re 13:17 people have to worship Satan in order to be able to buy - but to buy what - gold from Jesus? This seems unlikely, which therefore makes me think that the buying in Re 3:18 is not related to that in 13:17.

True.

Buying gold from Jesus is likely metaphoric, since He does not seem to be a registered bullion dealer at present.

As to not being able to buy and sell on a global scale without doing obeisance to satanic wokery, that system of cashless central bank digital currency and biometric ID, coupled with social credit scoring, is just about upon us, able to coerce compliance whether Re 13 pertains to it or not; this is just reality; so why wouldn't prophecy inform us in advance about this - that is my question since nothing like this has ever been technically possible before?

My thinking is that the head of the beast represents the most vital and important part of it and that therefore the whole beast goes down, for if only the third world, China or Russia, were to collapse, I doubt that the 'whole world' would 'wonder admiringly' and 'follow the beast with admiration' upon the revival of these constituents.

The WEF has already written a manifesto about the total collapse of the internet - and western civilization with it - called 'the event,' the 'great reset,' followed by the 'build back better' of a completely closed system of control and tyranny for those refusing to bow down to the 'great liberator' of mankind, Lucifer, whom they all worship.

Could the 'great reset' equate to the 'sword stroke?'

These things are happening now in the real world regardless of the Bible or any ancient prophecy and its interpretation - can you see this taking place, and what do you think of it?

Greetings,

Harry

 

So, to me there is no contradiction in Revelation between 'buying gold' from Jesus and not being able to 'buy or sell' without having the mark of the beast, precisely because they talk about different 'buying.'

'Buying and selling' to me is simply commercial activity, but there is no 'selling' of gold to Jesus, as far as I can see in the text, nor is the 'buying and selling' in 13:17 limited to gold - hence two different scenarios where one doesn't mesh with the other, unless one equates them and imagines that Jesus wants us to worship Satan in order to be able to buy gold from Him, which, quite frankly, sounds absurd, don't you think?

Further, the 'compulsion' to worship Satan and the beast will be upon all 8 billion+ people on earth - 'small and great, rich and poor'- but how many of them would care about 'buying gold' from Jesus?

So this is the question to me: does Re 13 - the test of loyalty to God - concern only the 'little flock,' members of today's 'seven congregations,' or will it be upon the 'entire inhabited earth?' Re 3:10

Correct.

Because there is nothing wrong with 'buying and selling' until the revived beast limits the ability to do so to only those worshiping it and its image.

'Buying and selling' does not constitute worship even during the reign of terror of the revived beast; it is just impossible to do so for those not accepting the mark of the beast.

The only person ever to make the argument that 'buying and selling' in Re 13:17 are 'spiritual transactions' or worship is Pearl Doxxy; but then she also thinks that we are already in the great tribulation and other such illogical things.

When the disciples went to town to buy provisions for Jesus on the occasion when He spoke to the woman at the well, who or what were they worshiping in doing so? The shopkeeper?

No, it was just a commercial transaction without any hidden spiritual meaning behind it.

Not directly, but what else could motivate 'all the earth to follow the wild beast with admiration' after the healing of its head wound? Re 13:3

No I can't; but in studying history I noticed how Germany miraculously came back from the abyss during the short span of the Third Reich, so that all its inhabitants followed the Fuehrer with admiration; check it out on YouTube documentaries, and imagine this euphoria go global to get a taste of Re 13:3, I think.

Good point; however, what would be preferable: to ignorantly and unnecessarily worry about something bad that has already come to pass, or the other way round?

I realize that WT has convinced its charges that all of prophecy has already been fulfilled and that Jesus could show up at any minute now before their two week 'go-bags' run out of soda and cookies, as they sit on the sidelines in their attics watching the show - but could they be wrong?

Just my thoughts at this moments, and thanks for your input and providing the platform for exchange of ideas, Joshua,

Greetings,

Harry

 

Absolutely agree; I check in every once in a while - it is good to know what the enemy is thinking.

I am with you there; the compulsion to get the mark of the beast will be similar to back then; I just fail to see a connection to 'buying gold' from Jesus in our day.

We already had a training exercise of this compulsion globally with the gene altering 'magic juice' being foisted on the population on pain of total exclusion from participation in life, and most people, including most Christians, failed the test miserably by falling for the lies and having their genome altered and made subject to patents as a result, constituting them organisms exempted from human rights and being made in God's image, transfecting into the image of the beast - and there is more to come of that trans-humanism.

Do you believe that before Christ returns, cash will be abolished so that only those having the mark of the beast will be able to participate in life, and that Christians will be objects of hatred by all the nations?

Or do you think that this is just symbolic?

WT, for one, does not believe in such 'conspiracy theories,' nor do people affected by the Marxist left - it will be a hairy time for those that know better.

Right, Jesus' telling us to buy valuables from Him is metaphor for pursuing spiritual riches laid up in Heaven, but not being able to pursue spiritual riches [buying and selling] unless accepting the mark of the beast cannot be enforced unless one were literally excluded from buying [food] and selling [one's labor].

Jesus also bears witness to this interpretation in Mat 25, by saying that His followers would be naked, hungry and imprisoned during the reign of the beast, which would not be the case if they could buy food and pay lawyers and get bail and so on, as we can today.

Unless you think that the coming persecution of Christians is merely metaphoric and not literal, physical deprivation and suffering.

Just something to consider,

greetings,

Harry

 

Good morning,

I won't have anything to contribute in this discussion because of the future-leaning fulfillment you both seem to share, but I'll offer some thoughts and observations, for what they are worth:

First, the Laodicean congregation was well-off materially. Their affluence afforded them comforts in the flesh, no question. They were even able to quickly recover from a disastrous mangle of earthquakes that rocked the region in their day-- while surrounding cities fared far less well. All of which is attested in the historical records accessible on the internet.

However, their creature comforts evidently drew them into a lukewarmness that was so bad that Jesus said he was "going to vomit [them] out of his mouth." (Revelation 3:17)

Gold, like money, lets people buy the things they need (and want).

Because you say: "I am rich and have acquired riches and do not need anything at all..." -- Revelation 3:17 New World Translation

As a result of their affluence, their heart was where their treasures were; and Jesus may be attempting to remind them of what he had taught during his earthly ministry:

Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. — Matthew 6:19 Berean Study Bible

People who are well-off financially tend to take comfort in their financial independence, with God getting relegated to the back room in case he might be needed. They become self-sufficient in their own eyes, but from Jehovah's eyes— and Jesus' eyes— there's a serious problem:

...you do not know you are miserable and pitiable and poor and blind and naked... — Revelation 3:17 New World Translation

Jesus goes on to tell the Laodicean congregation:

I advise you to buy from me gold refined by fire that you may become rich... — Revelation 3:18 New World Translation

Having just been told that they are poor, one has to ask how they are supposed to buy gold, but when one reflects back on what Jesus was saying during his ministry about storing up treasures on earth, he goes on to say:

But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. — Matthew 6:20-21 Berean Standard Bible

Back, then, to the question of how someone who is poor can buy anything, the answer is astonishingly simple: by giving.

Jesus looked at him, loved him, and said to him, "There is one thing you lack: Go, sell everything you own and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow Me." — Mark 10:21 Berean Standard Bible

This is the same direction Jesus gave his disciples:

Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide yourselves with purses that will not wear out, an inexhaustible treasure in heaven, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys. — Luke 12:33 Berean Study Bible

Maybe this is relevant, maybe not; when the region was devastated by the earthquake in the first century, Laodicea was able to bounce back because of their riches... but they didn't exactly extend a helping hand to the surrounding cities, a negligence that calls to my mind 1 John 3:17.

Laodicea's response to this scathing declaration was likely akin to that of the young man Jesus was speaking to on that occasion during his earthly ministry:

When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he was very rich. — Matthew 19:22 Contemporary English Version

Compare that response with that of the apostle Peter:

But Peter said, “I don’t have any silver or gold for you. But I’ll give you what I have." — Acts 3:6a Berean Study Bible

Buy by giving... what a novel concept that only Jehovah God could come up with!

Then Jesus looked up and saw the rich putting their gifts into the treasury, and He saw a poor widow put in two small copper coins. “Truly I tell you,” He said, “this poor widow has put in more than all the others. For they all contributed out of their surplus, but she out of her poverty has put in all she had to live on.” Luke 21:1-4 Berean Standard Bible

My breakfast is ready, though, and then it's off to the salt mines for me.

Submitted for perusal and consideration,
Timothy,
a believer.

 

Hi Timothy, thanks for joining the discussion and bringing your perspective on this issue such as the valuable insight that buying valuables from Jesus can only be accomplished by giving up of oneself as to temporal things in exchange for the more tangible and everlasting glory.

I am also interested to hear more about your seeming preterist views on Scripture passages that are generally held to be prophetic, and your reason for holding them, if you don't mind, either on this thread or on one dedicated specifically to that topic.

Hi Joshua, yes, I believe that the 'they,' as in "that they should give these a mark in their right hand," can naturally not apply to the singular God who is One, but that the mark is given by 'them,' plural, namely the beast and its image.

Also, I don't think that the mark of the beast has necessarily anything to do with apostasy, but rather idolatry; otherwise 80% of mankind cannot be affected by this, because they never claimed to be Christian in the first place, and therefore by definition cannot be charged with apostasy, right?

I believe that it is called 'mark of the beast' for a reason, namely that it is the beast's mark, one that it bestows, because if it were from God, it would be called 'the mark of God,' or 'God's mark;' you mark what you claim ownership of, not someone else's slave or property.

The 'mark of God on their foreheads' is given to Christians who have overcome the beast, which mark, logically, is in contradistinction to the 'mark of the beast' - both God and Satan respectively marking their slaves in the forehead, wouldn't you agree?

If God gives the mark - without which no one can 'buy gold from Jesus,' as you believe - then one instance of such 'buying' would surely be to reject the mark of the beast; but doing so also means being excluded from the ability to 'buy gold from Jesus' and thus being unable to reject the mark of the beast, meaning, rejection of the mark of the beast results in inability to reject the mark of the beast - a contradiction in terms; an absurdity - that is if the 'buying and selling' means to 'buy gold from Jesus' - and if the mark of the beast were really from God.

Do you think that this is how Jesus wants us to interpret His words?

On the other hand, if the buying and selling is literal exclusion from the means of sustenance, then rejecting the mark of the beast results in tribulation, just as foretold, but also 'buying of gold from Jesus.'

A literal interpretation of the ban on buying and selling is, of course, of no concern to those experiencing the bounce back of the slain beast as the very expression of God's kingdom on earth, as it unites mankind against the 'haters,' 'noticers' and 'anti-semites' that oppose the 'pure doctrine of Lucifer.'

Have you thought about the inevitability of a global digital currency that can be blocked for individuals deemed to be in non-compliance with the globalist paradigm, just like bank accounts and even access to crypto already got blocked for people daring to buy a meal for truckers in Canada a while back, remember?

Have you ever lived without a job, savings or income support for any length of time in a community where everyone knows and hates you?

Do you think that this could be a challenge to one's faith in God?

If so, that is what Re 13 seems to be all about; if not, give it a try now, just for fun, before it becomes inevitable.

Economic hardship seemed to not have bothered Laodicean Christians back then either.

I agree with your assessment of the situation with the Churches, but I see the same also happening with 'civil society' at large, following the beast with admiration, as it implements 'social justice,' 'equity,' 'inclusion' and 'vibrant diversity' all across the globe.

Da 12:11 reads: "And from the time that the constant feature has been removed and there has been a placing of the disgusting thing that is causing desolation, there will be 1290 days."

You seem to be reading: "And from the time that the constant feature has been removed until the placing of the disgusting thing that is causing desolation, there will be 1290 days;" - which Bible translation are you reading from?

My question would be: How can a disgusting thing desolate something that no longer exists because it has already been removed 1290 days before?

Thanks for taking the time to further explain your views,

Cheers,

Harry

 

Interesting; I don't remember coming across this variant reading before, although I might have.

Jesus tells us to watch out for the disgusting thing standing in a holy place, rather than the removal of the constant feature, which according to the variant reading is supposed to have happened 1290 before - why?

We know that from the time that the disgusting thing stands in a holy place until the return of Christ will be 1260 days of trampling on Christianity, called the great tribulation, perhaps minus a 'discount' of a few days, so that at least some holy ones will be alive in the flesh for Christ's public arrival on the clouds of Heaven.

The great tribulation seems to be God's judgment on those professing Christianity, most of whom will join in worshiping the beast, thereby avoiding persecution and thus giving up their claim to be followers of Jesus.

In the end the beast worshipers will come for the holy ones.

If there are supposed to be 1290 days in front of the 1260 days of the great tribulation, then this would fit with 'a leader that is coming' making and 'keeping in force the covenant for one week with the many' whom he will 'lead into apostasy by means of smooth words.' Da 9:26,27; 11:30-39

I would need some Scripture, other than Da 12:11, to corroborate that the removal of the constant feature equates to the body of Christ 'going down,' whatever that may mean, and that this is to happen 7 years [1290 days plus 1260] before Christ's return, and why such a significant development is not referred to by Jesus in His end time speech, if the removal of the constant feature is in fact not the direct result of the disgusting thing standing in a holy place, to profane it by removing and replacing it with the worship of the beast, which will replace Christianity for 42 month, as we know from Re 11 and 13.

Ok, 'make' or 'cause' them to, it is still 'they,' plural, something that Jesus isn't, but the beast and its image are.

Yes, I agree, the whole world will worship the beast enthusiastically - 'you will own nothing and you will be happy,' whether you like it or not, lol.

Yes, the compulsion will start with not being able to support yourself by not being able to buy and sell, and will progressively get worse, even to the point of possible death in the end.

I don't understand your meaning here; the beast doesn't say that you cannot 'buy from Jesus' so long as you worship it as well, and then it is Jesus who will view you as an apostate, right?

Not being able to 'buy and sell' is not a prohibition laid upon you by the beast that would require monitoring and enforcement, but a punishment for non-compliance with worshiping it, a withdrawal of access to the means of sustaining life that cannot be circumvented.

It is not that you are prohibited from buying and selling, but that it will be physically impossible to do so, in contrast to there being no possible way of preventing someone from worshiping the God of Jesus, because it does not have to be done in public to be acceptable by Him. Mat 6:6

Same here; welcome to the club, lol; and it can only get worse.

Greetings,

Harry

 

Thanks for the speedy reply.

That is how I always read it too, but if this translation is true,

the two time periods do not start simultaneously, because the 'blasphemous object that brings destruction' will be set up 1290 days after the daily sacrifice is stopped, just like I noted before, which is why I think this translation is suspect.

I noticed the same thing of there being seemingly two parts to the [great] tribulation apart from Armageddon, which follows Christ's return.

Perhaps that subject deserves a separate thread one day.


One more thing back to earlier in the thread:

It sounds like you are saying that 'buying and selling' is in the same sense as 'buying gold from Jesus,' and that being able to do so requires the mark of the beast in both instances, something that God gives for this very purpose to those wanting to 'buy gold from Jesus' - do I understand you correctly there?

To put it another way: God gives people the mark of the beast to enable them to buy gold from Jesus.

If so, it follows that God destroys people for wanting to 'buy gold from Jesus;' - don't you think there is something wrong with your premises in view of the rather disturbing conclusion?

Ok, time to hit the sack here; thanks for the exchange of thoughts, very much appreciated, wish that more people were interested,

greetings,

Harry

 

Good morning Joshua, another beautiful day east of paradise here;

you say that:

and I agree, but the placing of the disgusting thing causing desolation begins 1290 days after the stopping of the daily feature, if you want to believe the NCV Bible Version, which I don't, to wit:

Then:

I see a similar development, but please allow me to elaborate a bit on what I believe; I try the short version, so feel free to ask for clarification on any point.

There seem to be two 'peoples of God' in the world since the start of Christianity, the body of Christ proper, and the 'nominal Church' that is now composed of over 2 billion self-identified 'Christians.' Ga 4:29; 1 Joh 4:6

The small number of those born of God are in the new covenant and do not teach 'each one his brother to know Jehovah,' unlike God's nominal people, like JWs and the rest of Christendom do. Lu 12:32; Joh 1:13; Heb 8:10-13

They have been once for all enlightened and are led by the Spirit, so that if ever they should fall away to apostate teachings, can never be saved again. Heb 6:4-6

These chosen ones are kept from the hour of test that is going to come upon all others, and flee from 'a holy place' as soon as they perceive the disgusting thing standing there, all the time making supplication to escape all the things that are destined to befall the nominal Church in its 42 month of judgment, in order to stand before Jesus when He arrives. Re 3:10; Mat 24:15,16; Lu 21:36

First the weeds are bundled and burned up during the 42 month great tribulation, then the chosen ones are caught away into the celestial storehouse with Christ, as He returns to pick them up. Mat 13:30; 1 Thes 4:16,17

That is the way I see it.

If the 'buying and selling' in Re 13:17 were metaphoric, as the 'buying' gold from Jesus in Re 3:18 is, and were in reference to it, then, since the beast cannot be privy to the personal relationship a believer has with Christ, all it could do is threaten to interfere somehow, which would be laughable, and that is one reason why I see the blocking of buying and selling as literal.

The text doesn't say that the beast tricks believers into thinking that they need to worship it in order to buy gold from Jesus, which would be ludicrous to start with, but also because such a plot would leave 99% of mankind cold, since they do not care about buying gold from Jesus in the first place; again showing that the buying and selling has got to be in the physical exchange of goods and services.

So you haven't convinced me on that point; not that you need to either.

I wholeheartedly agree with your conclusions there, but am totally baffled as to how you reached them given your premises, but that's just me; all good.

Greetings,

Harry