The text explains what it means. When God told Jeremiah of a new covenant, that made the old covenant outdated/growing old; (the Greek word means declared old) however, it had not vanished yet. It vanished when Christ entered heaven. The new covenant replaced the old. That's even what Paul says in Heb 9. Don't go by the English word obsolete if you can't justify the definition, look up the Greek. Here: INT The Greek is all that matters. You're debating an English translation word and neglecting the original Greek and context of the text. Joshua
So the new covenant arrived as a promise, just like it was with Abraham and God's promise to him, which involved also His promise to Jesus to eventually be put in charge of the earth - all of which meant to be appropriated by justifying faith, both ways between both parties, it seems. Ro 4:13; 1:17
Yes, the new covenant was promised to Jeremiah ahead of time. Paul tells us it was implemented the moment Jesus fulfilled the High Priest role when entering the Most Holy, at which time the old vanished. "For the Lord GOD does nothing without revealing his secret to his servants the prophets." Amos 3:7 Joshua
Greetings, Harry. Out of curiosity, do you believe our Lord will fulfill the fall feasts upon His arrival? Joshua
Good morning Joshua, so, I view Christ's parousia as His 'coming and consequent presence with' His brothers - as the Greek denotes - not invisible presence followed by His coming, as WT would have it. He comes immediately after the end of the 42 month long great tribulation on Christianity - which itself only starts some time after the coming sword stroke on the global beast is healed, and that also seems to take about three and a half years to come about - arriving on the clouds of Heaven in power and great glory to be seen by all the tribes of the earth, as He sends forth His angels to collect the chosen ones together to be caught up into the sky to Him, which is the revealing of the sons of God. By contrast, RK [e-watchman] proclaims what he deceptively calls a 'visible presence,' which is, in fact, just as invisible as the WT's parousia, where only the anointed will see Jesus secretly as in 'the inner chambers' or the remote 'wilderness,' precisely the sort of false claims to be made by those against whom Jesus warned us as being false prophets and false anointed ones, where the 'uninitiated' once again have to take people's word for it, instead of seeing Jesus with their own eyes just as He has promised; how any of his followers cannot see RK's outing himself blatantly like that is rather baffling to me. As to 'fall feasts,' Jesus told us that the purpose of His arrival would be to receive us home to Himself, where once again He would drink of the product of the vine, meaning eternal feasting with Him by those taken to Heaven. Lu 22:18 What are your thoughts? greetings, Harry
I had a more specific question in mind. Jesus fulfilled Passover, Unleavened Bread, and First Fruits on the day they occurred. Do you think He will fulfill Rosh Hashanah, Sukkot, and Yom Kippur on the days they occur? Joshua
No, the Law has vanished. However, the Law was just a shadow of the realities He established. Did He not establish the realities of the spring holidays? If Daniel's prophecies of the disgusting thing standing in a holy place apply to the body of Christ today, would it be a surprise if Jesus fulfilled the fall holidays as He did the spring? He fulfilled the spring holidays on His first visit, why not the fall holidays upon His coming in the end? Are the Fall remembrance days to remain unfulfilled in Him? Have you ever wondered if the days in Daniel could be the time distance between said holidays yet to be fulfilled? Joshua
Because "the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with the Lord." You mean celebrating 'spring holidays' in Heaven with Christ? Yeah, why not; all eternity will be one big spring holiday for the chosen, especially after the job of the thousand year parousia is done, and the kingdom is handed back to the Father.
No, that's not what I mean. You must not have considered this before. Jesus fulfilled the spring holidays on the days they occurred. Passover: On this night, Jesus verbally offered His blood on behalf of His disciples. His new covenant for a kingdom would allow them to emerge as an exodus from a world they were to be no part of. Unleavened Bread: While in the grave, our Lord's body became the kernel of wheat ready to burst forth as the bread of life. First Fruits: At His resurrection on First Fruits, He became the first of many to rise to eternal life. Future: Rosh Hashanah: Two witnesses required to spot the new moon. Sukkot: The harvest of engathering. Yom Kippur: The most holy day when the High Priest enters the Most Holy. Hanukkah: The temple cleansed. ------- Jesus fulfilled the spring holidays with events that matched those holidays on the day they occurred. The fall holidays remain. So, one may ask if the days counted in Daniel are the days between these holidays yet to be fulfilled. Joshua
True. Correct; unless a grain dies it cannot bear fruit - as it was with Christ, so also with those who were raised up in, and through, Him by the Father; this is how He raised up the temple of His body - the members of His body - after three days, 'for you were buried with Him in His baptism [into death], and by relationship with Him you were also raised up together through your faith in the operation of God, who raised Him up from the dead.' Col 2:12 'Two witnesses' will bear witness for 42 month before Christ's return. 'And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather His chosen ones together from the four winds.' 'Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken along and the other be abandoned.' Yom Kippur already happened 2000 years ago when Jesus entered Heaven itself to present the exact representation of Jehovah's very Being in sacrifice, representing the death of the Covenanter to inaugurate the new covenant between God and the chosen ones, with Himself as the Mediator and Propitiator, begging mankind to become reconciled to Him on the basis of faith in His blood. Heb 9:24; 1:3; 9:16,17; Ro 3:25; 2 Co 5:20 Not sure if the disgusting thing standing in a holy place qualifies as, or coincides with, a festival or shadow of the law, but there are about 42 month between it and the return of Christ. Perhaps at the time of that milestone the other prophetic intervals of Daniel will become relevant. That's my take for what it is worth, greetings, Harry
A question for you Joshua, if I may: Do you also view the disgusting thing standing in a holy place to be the same event as the man of lawlessness sitting down in the temple of The God, publicly showing himself to be a god? Mat 24:15; 2 Thes 2:4
Here are a few things I did not mention; Jesus called himself the Passover Lamb, Bread from Heaven and the First-fruits from among the dead. Fifty days after Jesus arose came the feast of Pentecost. This feast celebrated the hot eastern wind that ripened the wheat for harvest. Jesus fulfilled this feast by sending his Holy Spirit to ripen all nations' hearts so they might enter the harvest of salvation. Once again, Jesus fulfilled this feast right on time when, like a wind, the Holy Spirit came in and filled the room like tounges of fire. (Acts1) They will bear witness in sackcloth for 42 months; it does not say this is the only time they will witness. You assume... The feast is called the Day of Atonement. People are still sinning down here. I do not believe Jesus has received the kingdom of the earth yet, but I know you do. Someone will know exactly what will happen ahead of time. (Am 3:7) Why not you? I do believe they are the same thing. The current people of God go down in the end for apostasy. Then, the two witnesses rebuild the true spiritual temple of God on earth, which is attacked at the end of the 1290 days. That is the disgusting thing attacking the holy place. The holy place represents the remaining 144k. Joshua
Quote Re 11:3: "And I will cause my two witnesses to prophesy a thousand two hundred and sixty says dressed in sackcloth." You assume that I said or implied that 'this is the only time they will witness;' read my comment again - the assumption is yours, and it is wrong. Quote Paul: " . . . every priest takes his station from day to day to render public service and to offer the same sacrifices often, as these are at no time able to take sins away completely. 12 But this man offered one sacrifice for sins perpetually . . . for it is by one sacrificial offering that he has made those who are being sanctified perfect perpetually." Heb 10:11-14 I also believe it is still future; not sure where you got the impression that I believe to the contrary. You mean when it becomes relevant or before? Who do you see as the 'current people of God?' Assuming that with the 'true spiritual temple of God on earth' you mean the 'remaining ones of the 144k' - what do you mean with them being 'rebuild by the two witnesses?' Are they newly anointed ones or those who previously 'went down in the end for apostasy?' Harry
If your comment is to be read that the two witnesses will bear witness longer than the 42 months you mentioned, then you are right; I must have misunderstood. I read from your comment they will bear witness 42 months before Christ's return. The text does not exclude them from preaching before and after being dressed in sackcloth. It could simply be telling you they will no longer be wearing sackcloth (a sign of mourning) at the end of the 1260 days. This means the text tells you how long something will occur that causes them to mourn, nothing more, nothing less. I do not believe our sins are taken away yet; they are only covered. I believe the removal of sin is when you will no longer sin. Still future. "For the Lord GOD does nothing without revealing his secret to his servants the prophets." Am 3:7 God's people are those who do His Will. Let's use the WT as an example. If it goes down, there will be a time of trial for all who had faith in the congregation. The two witnesses call to rebuild (Dan 9), and the true people of God will be gathered back into one. At Yom Kippur, our Lord will receive the kingdom of the earth, pour out His Spirit, and the remaining 144k will be transfigured. It will be these that the beast attacks. "Let us burst their bonds apart and cast away their cords from us.” Psm 2:3 Joshua
That is precisely what the text says; if you want to go beyond the 'things that are written,' you are on your own. That is an argument from silence, which is not an argument. "I shall by no means call their sins to mind anymore" is a present reality for those in the new covenant since Christ's death until now; and besides, when you 'no longer sin,' how could there be any forgiveness for that? Heb 8:12 You are quoting a true saying, but this misses my point, which was as to whether is was relevant to those to whom God's secrets were revealed, and the answer is, no, not necessarily, as can be seen in the case of Daniel, to wit: "Go, Daniel, because the words are made secret and sealed up until the time of the end," which, in our case, hasn't even started yet. Da 12:9 That would mean that, according to your interpretation, at the very least, all chosen ones alive today - quite apart from the masses who only think they are doing the will of God - will 'go down in the end for apostasy' - as you put it - and from which there will be no revival possible. Heb 6:4 If you were to apply that to those anointed by the WT, I would be inclined to believe you. But since the anointed are as yet unrevealed, your view is simply untenable, because it makes Christ a liar in view of His saying: "Look, I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things." Ro 8:19; Mat 28:20 Ok, that is also what e-watchman thinks, that the WT will go down, but I don't think so, because they have already shown that they will go along with the globalist beast agenda in supporting the 'safe and effective' lie of the DNA transfecting experimental gene therapy masquerading as vaccine deception, as if coming from Jehovah, in order to stay in 'the land of the living' dead, so how will they not give their charges the 'from a human standpoint impractical' advice to take the mark of the beast, in order to live another day and experience the 'blessing' of the 'incoming kingdom' that 'is about to do away with the present, wicked sovereign nation state based system of things?' I cannot find any hint of their rebuilding anything in Da 9. The 'true people of God,' the chosen ones, were always one in spirit, if but scattered geographically. The great crowd of un-chosen ones - the remnant of God's nominal people - will come out of the great tribulation on Christianity because of rejecting the mark of the beast and unknowingly doing good to Christ's brothers. This may, or may not, coincide. If with 'transfigured' you mean glorified - which means being transformed into immortal spirit beings at the return of Christ - then there is no way for the beast to attack them, but they, in turn, will be joined by Jesus in wiping it, and its supporters, out. This seems to be a reference to the point in time when Jehovah is letting Himself be made redundant by the revived beast, the 'incoming kingdom that is about to replace the present wicked system of things' that WT has been advocating all along, the 'hour of test that is to come upon the whole inhabited earth, to put a test upon those dwelling on the earth,' as to whether they have 'accepted the love of the truth' or rather 'taken pleasure in unrighteousness,' in order to become subjects of the 'strong delusion' that this is indeed the very promised 'kingdom of God on earth.' Just my views, nothing but, Harry
It doesn't, though; it says this is the period they preach in sackloth. We know there are time periods in the end before this and after. We also know they are killed and resurrected after the 42 months. And it seems very unlikely they wouldn't be witnessing at any other point in their lives. As I said previously, the text indicates the mourning period, nothing more. Are you sure? There isn't. (Heb 10:26) According to Amos 3:7, His prophets will be aware of what is to come before it occurs, including the very day it will occur. The text says, "He will do nothing without revealing it first." I believe that is future when sin is taken away. I believe even the chosen can be forgiven of sin today. You asked who God's people were. They are everywhere. The people that go down in the end are His organizational arrangement with His people within. They go down as a group; as individuals, they will fall under the trumpets or bowls. No, he believes one of the elders from the WT will be the MOL as Judas was. I believe the MOL is a nation made up of the iron and BTG. I believe the WT will go down, and a new spiritual Israel will be reborn. Apparently, I'm the only one who understands that the 1290 days is the period between the two events. The two witnesses rebuild the spiritual temple in the time of the end. (Zech 4) "Why are you living in luxurious houses while my house lies in ruins?" Hg 1:4 "The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also complete it." Zech 4:9 The time of the end will be trying for God's people. Only the two witnesses will have true knowledge of what is occurring. It's all a matter of chronology. I mean, shine like Moses after seeing God and Jesus at the transfiguration. This is the event that sparks the beast to kill them. The saints who are still alive will be on earth for 40 days after being transfigured before our Lord appears in the clouds. Those dead in Christ will be raised to earth for 40 days, and then, together with those still alive of the saints at the end of the 40 days, will all be gathered up all together. "Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father." Mth 13:43 "But news from the east and the north shall alarm him, and he shall go out with great fury to destroy and devote many to destruction. And he shall pitch his palatial tents between the sea and the glorious holy mountain. Yet he shall come to his end, with none to help him." Dan 11:44,45 Psm 2:3 is when the beast attacks the remaining 144k at the end of the 1290 days. That is the pitching of the KOTN tents. They will believe if they kill off God's remaining brothers, He will leave this planet alone. God bless... Joshua
Right, 'there isn't' any way to forgive a sin once sinning no longer exists, which is why the "I shall by no means call their sins to mind anymore" modus operandi has to be in operation now - that was my point and the proof of it; do you now agree with me? Right, that is when the distinction between true prophet and false prophet will be revealed. The not being able to be 'revived again to repentance' after having 'fallen away,' is in the context of being anointed and coming under the new covenant, which equates to having 'once for all been enlightened,' but if 'having their sin taken away' were to be in the future, so would also have to be their anointing, meaning, no one is anointed yet, which is what some actually claim; that, or that everybody is anointed, both of which views are of course erroneous. Heb 6:1-8 True, just not 'going down in the end for apostasy,' as you put it, which is what 'fallen away' means, as used by Paul. Yes. You mean geographically? Yes, I agree. Or do you mean members of 'vessel like congregations' of the WT? And then, just the anointed, or also the 8 million others that are not part of the Christian congregation, which, according to Paul, is the body of Christ? Eph 1:22,23 You mean WT, or all the 'wheat and weeds' on earth today in 30.000 plus 'organizational arrangements' that are the direct result of what Christ started and oversaw as Head during the past 2000 years? E-watchman believes that the 'field' where both 'wheat and weeds' grow together is the WT, instead of "the world," as Jesus said - the world revolves around WT, I get it, lol. Sort of; he sees the MOL only as a thing in WT, while I believe it will be the anti-Christ that arises after the healing of the sword stroke on the globalist beast, who will lead the whole Christian world into apostasy. It sounds like you believe that WT - their anointed, to be more specific - is 'spiritual Israel' today; so you would likely agree with me that someone, for example, who believes that God tortures people for eternity, cannot possibly have been 'once for all enlightened' or be anointed by the Spirit of Truth, correct? So how can the 20.000 odd WT 'anointed' be 'once for all enlightened' when they believe that Jesus has already returned? Which part of "no lie originates with the truth" do either of these parties and those believing in them don't understand? 1 Joh 2:21 So Jesus didn't keep His promise to be with His anointed disciples 'all the days until the end of the system,' but instead ditched them towards the end and started a new spiritual Israel 2.0? In the time of the end 'true knowledge will become abundant.' Da 12:4 Just some of my observations, Harry
No, sins are still forgiven today; therefore, they could not have been taken away. You assume that "tasting the heavenly gift" is something obtainable today. You apply an outpouring of Spirit today to this scripture. That is an assumption. This understanding contradicts the forgiveness of sin. Paul is talking about a future when sin will be removed forever, and there will no longer be a forgiveness of sin. If you sin after that, you will die. The proof is that Paul said he had not yet reached perfection, and therefore, Christ had not yet perfected him. Look at you and I; we disagree on most details of scripture. Does this mean one or the other of us is not doing His Will? God chose a murderer to bring Israel out of Egypt. He chose a murderer to bring forth the line of the Messiah—a drunkard to save humanity at the flood. I don't think I would judge God's choices too strictly... So the anointed will have every single detail of Scripture correct? I'll have to disagree. I doubt even the two witnesses will have everything 100%. So, Jehovah didn't keep His promise to stay with Israel? Come on, you know God promised to always be with them, and they failed Him many times so He abandoned them. The Bible is a whole, not a single scripture. Jesus meant as long as they stayed faithful. Abundant is relative. Joshua
Yes, but that very fact bears witness that the new covenant needs to be in operation now, because once capacity to sin ceases to exist, no covenant concerning it is needed anymore. This observation works against your argument, not for it. They [sins] are taken away in the sense that God does not take them in account anymore, imputing righteousness to those in the new covenant as ones who sin against their will. Ro 7:17 This results in their not being morally conscious of sin anymore, despite not being sinless, which would be a dangerous condition to be in for anyone not born from above. Heb 10:2 Unobtainable if it were up to man to procure, I agree; which is why it results from God's promise, by reason of faith and towards faith, for all the heirs of the promise; such it was right from the start. and nothing has changed down to our day - why would it? WT in 1935 - just like their spiritual forefathers in the first century - 'shut up the kingdom of the heavens before men; "for you yourselves do not go in, neither do you permit those on their way in to go in." Mat 23:13 For Jesus to be with His disciples 'all the days until the end' there would have to be anointed ones all the way through history - an assumption that is necessarily true. No, falling away from the faith, which is the meaning of apostasy, especially for those about whom the whole of the NT was written, is equal to sinning against the Holy Spirit - for which there is no forgiveness ever - something that can also apply to non-anointed ones who have witnessed, or experienced, direct divine dealings, such as the Pharisees that saw Jesus perform miracles, and whom He declared liable for Gehenna. Why warn people of something that cannot pertain to them at present, that would make them lose out on eternal life? Righteousness is imputed on the basis of faith in those born of God; once they are perfected at being caught up into Heaven, they literally cannot ever fall away because of being immortal; hence, Paul's warning against willful sinning has got to be in the here and now, before it becomes impossible to do so in the future, as you imagine. Ro 4:3 The Holy Spirit does not teach opposite things to different people; if views are opposite, one must be wrong, however unintended. None of them were born of God or once for all enlightened. " . . . but that is what some of you were . . . " - but no longer are, otherwise . . . 'you too will be lopped off.' "And as for you, the anointing that you received from Him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to be teaching you; but as the anointing from Him is teaching you about all things, and is true and is no lie, and just as it has taught you, remain in union with Him." 1 Joh 2:27 No 1914 lie; those who believe it can therefore by scriptural definition not have been anointed by the Spirit of Truth. They were under the law covenant, a performance based, bi-artisan contract, which is why the new covenant is a one sided promise by God to write the law into the hearts of whom He calls to inherit it. Exceeding knowledge of what is needed to know all the same. Harry