The new covenant is not in force yet. The new covenant to rule with Christ does not come until the new kingdom is here when sin is no longer present. That is not what the scripture says. It says that once sin is removed, there will be no consciousness of sin at all. "having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins." Heb 10:2 They would no longer be conscious of sin within them. Adam and Eve were conscious of sin, hence their nakedness. We are still to buy clothes from Jesus to cover our nakedness of sin today to cover our consciousness of sin. Sin has not been removed yet; we are still conscious of it within us. Once it is removed, we will no longer be conscious of it. This is an assumption. This contradicts the forgiveness of sin. Pauls words are meant for the new world, not today. Paul himself contradicts your premise. "Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own." Phil 3:12 "For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified." Heb 10:14 Therefore, since Paul says he has not been made perfect, Christ's offering does not make us perfect until the future. This means that we are still conscious of sin, which has not been removed. If it were removed, that would make us perfect. The one sacrifice of Christ covers our sins, while the Hebrews needed many sacrifices to cover their sins. Again, sin is not removed until you are perfect. Besides this being what Paul says, the chronology of Pauls words points this out. I believe that this is an assumption based on your reading of Paul's words. The text says nothing about "wilful" sinning. It speaks of sin, period. After one is made perfect, they no longer have a consciousness of sin within them, and yet if they sin at that point, there no longer remains a sacrifice of sin. Satan was perfect and sinned. You assume immortality means the impossibility of sin. That is based on assumption. Again, we still have a sacrifice for our sins in Christ. That is not necessarily true. Both could be wrong and still have His Spirit. The disciples themselves argued over details such as circumcision and the like. Having God's Spirit does not mean you will have perfect knowledge. If you assert by your words that the Holy Spirit has given you your insights, I might warn you, with Christian love, that the Holy Spirit does not shield you from confirmation bias. It does not implant truth into your mind. Understanding is a sliding scale. Humans tend to inflate their position in God's plans with perceived gained knowledge. The most useful tool the Holy Spirit has ever given me is the ability to think in this manner: "I could be wrong." Do you believe you have been once and for all enlightened? That would seem a bit supercilious. I am afraid your reading of Paul's words has led you to believe you cannot be wrong. Your understanding of what Paul is saying could be wrong, brother. One specific misunderstanding in prophecy disqualifies someone from the anointing of God? Okay... If the new covenant is not in place yet, that throws your theory out of the water, doesn't it? We are still teaching "Know Jehovah." We won't be in the new kingdom. All I'm saying is, don't put too much confidence in your current understanding. Consider you could be wrong, and maybe you will answer those paradoxes in your mind. You have to prove me wrong first before you can continue to believe what you currently do. You repeat what you believe, but you fail to show me my errors Scripturally. I already know why, brother. I once thought, as you do, about these matters until I was corrected through God's Will. Joshua PS: Maybe God's Spirit is reaching out to you right now...
And with that view you have just abolished 2000 years of Christianity, including the NT and everything the apostles and first century Christians have ever believed and experienced. You have placed yourself entirely outside of Christian belief by any possible metric. Quote Heb 9:15: "So that is why he is a mediator of a new covenant, in order that, because a death has occurred for their release by ransom from the transgressions under the former covenant, the ones who have been called might receive the promise of the everlasting inheritance." Without the new covenant you have no mediator, and you are dead in your sins. Quote Heb 12:22,23: "But YOU have approached a Mount Zion and a city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem . . . and the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens, and God the Judge of all, and the spiritual lives of righteous ones who have been made perfect, and Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and the blood of sprinkling . . . see that YOU do not beg off from him who is speaking. For if they did not escape who begged off from him who was giving divine warning upon earth, much more shall we not if we turn away from him who speaks from the heavens . . . for our God is also a consuming fire." I can see how your experience tells you that you are not in the new covenant, but that doesn't mean it is not in operation now - and ever since God inaugurated it through Christ 2000 years ago - in those called to inherit the promise. There is no point in me arguing against your lived experience, is there? Harry
Harry, why are you so quick to judge, so quick to speak rather than to consider? When you automatically assume you are right without thinking objectively, you make mistakes. You are not my judge. Do you see God's kingdom anywhere around you? Do you see people around you perfect already? The new covenant was a promise, Hary. A covenant promise must be implemented. This is a matter of chronology. You seem to think we no longer teach "know Jehovah" because everyone already knows Him. Look around you. Do you see everyone knowing Jehovah? Do you see God's people having stopped the teachings about Him? (Jer 31) "And I bestow on you a kingdom, just as My Father has bestowed one on Me," Luk 22:29 Look around you, Harry. Do you see God's kingdom around you? Yes, our Lord is the mediator of a new covenant, a covenant that will be established/confirmed when it comes to reality when it gets here, Harry. Jesus went to prepare the kingdom for us, He is mediating it now. (Jhn 14:2) That means a go-between in preparation, like He said. I am only offended for you. I can't stand it when people with your ability make such unnecessary mistakes. Quote scriptures that show the new covenant promises are already here, not just coming. A covenant is a promise that must be confirmed; it's promises implemented. "But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is founded on better promises." Heb 8:6 Just as our sins are removed still yet future when we are no longer conscious of them and He forgets them, so too is the covenant placed/confirmed in our hearts at that time when we will all know Jehovah. There will be no one in the kingdom who does not know Him. You should have considered the possibility that there was a very good reason I said what I did instead of taking the position of judge. Joshua
Sorry, but I can only go by what you say, and then try to reconcile that with what I read in Scripture; you are not your views, so if I seem to take issue with them it is not personal. I merely test the inspired expressions to see if they originate with God. As I read more of the reasoning behind your views, I am slowly starting to perceive that we are talking about two different dispensations here, which is why things don't add up. To get back to basics, Christianity originated 4000 years ago with God's promise to Abraham that by means of his seed all nations would be blessed. About 2000 years later, Paul under Holy Spirit, discerned that this promise had the additional meaning of people of the nations, who ostensibly were to be receivers of the promised blessing, to have their position switched, so as to also become members of those who were to be the givers of the blessing, i.e. the seed of Abraham. This secondary meaning of God's promise to Abraham has, in the centuries following the first, completely overshadowed and replaced the original meaning and purpose of Christianity among believers down to our day, as if the blessing of all the nations was its goal during the past 2000 years, which is why there is this mismatch between what Scripture seems to be saying and what we, as you correctly observe, 'see around us today.' God's purpose, as revealed - or rather hidden, in view of today's total ignorance of believers - in His promise to Abraham, was to divide mankind up into those who bless and those who are being blessed, where the first 2000 years after Christ were to be about neither objectives, but solely for the purpose of calling and training the small number of those who, after the 2000 years, would do the blessing together with Christ after His return. It is not that Christianity has failed to 'bless all the nations of the earth' and turn the earth into paradise, as one might conclude, because that was never the purpose of the new covenant, which harked back to God's promise to Abraham; its only purpose was to select and perfect the chosen ones, when it is fulfilled and done away with. Equally, those to be blessed in the primary meaning of God's promise to Abraham, namely, all the nations of the earth, their blessing during the 1000 years will not be brought about by the new covenant, but by the seed of Abraham shepherding them with an iron rod back into perfection. Re 2:26,27 I am not sure if I have done a good enough job of explaining the reasons behind my differing belief, so feel free to critique it.
What did God promise Abraham, Harry? How many offspring were part of God's covenant with Abraham, that were to bring blessings? Was He talking about thousands who would be seeds of Abraham, or was God talking about a single individual, Christ? "I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore. And your offspring shall possess the gate of his enemies, and in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice." Gen 22:17,18 What does Paul say? "Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ." Gal 3:16 According to Paul, God's promises to Abraham spoke of a single individual who would bring blessings. Christ and Christ alone possess the gates of the enemy, and all nations are blessed through Him alone. The elect are judged more harshly. They are more like servants, washing the feet of the subjects. They give up themselves, Harry. Some mourned the loss of their earthly lives to do God's Will and wishes. Joshua
Yes, one single Christ composed of Head and body, Jesus and 'those who belong to Him.' Ga 3:29 Correct; "For which one is greater, the one reclining at the table or the one ministering? Is it not the one reclining at the table? But I am in YOUR midst as the one ministering." Lu 22:27 " . . . bear in mind the words of the Lord Jesus, when he himself said, ‘There is more happiness in giving than there is in receiving.’ ” Acts 20:35 Amazingly though, Satan will rile up the whole world against those destined by God to be placed in position to bless them, because of their envy at missing out on a privilege of service which they themselves would despise doing anyway - you will see. Harry
You've built your understanding of the covenants on the assumption that God's promises to Abraham included the elect. And now, presented with the paradox of Paul's words, you use confirmation bias to bring order to your view rather than to adjust your understanding. Scripture does not say the elect bring blessings to anyone, and Gal 3:29 does not mention it. The elect will become heirs of the kingdom when the new covenant is confirmed. Are you now like the WT saying the kingdom has already come? Do I really need to quote Paul on that subject? Paul tells us that the promises to Abraham spoke of a singular individual (not many) who would bring blessings to the nations. Paul made a point to mention that specifically. Therefore, these blessings have had no part over these last 2000 years as you had assumed. Why still justify your stance that God's words to Abraham include the elect when Paul contradicts that assumption? When presented with a paradox, one must immediately admit that one's understanding is wrong so that we can correct it as soon as humanly possible. If this one misunderstanding of the seeds of Abraham bringing blessings is wrong, then everything tied to it is wrong. Including the fact that the new covenant and everything that goes along with it was only promised and has not yet been in place. Harry, this isn't about proving anything but about making sure you are correct. I care nothing about being right, I only care about the truth. We must allow God's Spirit to mold us. What if things don't occur as you imagine? "Don’t you know that Baalis king of the Ammonites has sent Ishmael son of Nethaniah to take your life?” But Gedaliah son of Ahikam did not believe them." Jer 40:13 "They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God’s coming to you.” Luk 19:44 "And they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man." Mth 24:39 "On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'" Mth 7:22 Joshua
Sorry, not correct. Ga 3:29: "Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham's seed, heirs with reference to a promise." Hence, all heirs of the promise belong to Christ and are one in Him as the collective seed of Abraham. The reality of this is not dependent on you being a part of it, assenting to it, or even comprehending it; it is just a brute fact attested by Scripture.
Harry, it is literally what Paul says. Are you not able to reconcile Paul's words? Trust me, it's not me who misunderstands. "Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ." Gal 3:16 Only Christ brings blessings. The "promise" Paul speaks of to the heirs is the new covenant promise to rule given by Christ, not the promises to Abraham. "But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises." Heb 8:6 "Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham's seed, heirs with reference to a promise." Gal 3:29 Joshua
Ga 3:16: "Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed." Ga 3:28,29: " . . . for YOU are all ONE PERSON in union with Christ Jesus; moreover, if YOU belong to Christ, YOU are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise."
So, you are going to do the Trinity thing, cobble and twist a few scriptures to confirm your understanding. Cognitive dissonance at its finest. By all means resort to taking several scriptures out of context to bolster your theory. I've seen it a million times. And FYI, the word "person" is not in the Greek. Did you add that word? I can't seem to find a single translation with it there, Harry. "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Gal 3:28
Yes, 'all are one in Christ' and therefore Abraham's seed, which is spiritual; the many in one is a spiritual concept. I challenge you to find any commentary on this text that does not agree with Paul that all those born of God are collectively Abraham's seed. Anyone who doesn't believe that is simply not a Christian. 1 Co 2:13: "These things we also speak, not with words taught by human wisdom, but with those taught by the spirit, as we combine spiritual matters with spiritual words. 14 But a physical man does not receive the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know them, because they are examined spiritually."
What do you mean with 'cobble and twist a few scriptures?' This is all from the same chapter where Paul elaborates on what he means with Abraham's seed being one, namely, that all elect are one in Christ. You deny the plain word of God - good luck with that.
lol... So, I assume you did add the word "person" to the text. Think about that, Harry. You are allowing your cognitive dissonance to stand in the way of recognizing your paradox. Paul is talking about PROMISES regarding a "single individual" as it pertains to Abraham, and Paul is talking about oneness without separations or sects regarding the heirs. You are attempting to take Paul's words about the heirs being one in agreement and apply those to his words about a promise given to Abraham that spoke of a "single individual" called the "Messiah." You are doing EXACTLY what Trinitarians do. They are two different contexts... It's not some secret you figured out; you're blinding yourself. Look, I'll try to walk you through it step by step, and if God Wills, you will get it. ------- Just as I've been saying all along, Paul indicates the children/seed of Abraham are those of faith. I literally said that on May 28th in post #32. So please stop saying I'm denying it. I was literally the first one between us to say it. What you are closing your eyes to is that when Paul talks about the promises that bring blessings through Abraham, Paul clearly indicates that the single individual is the Messiah. You are not the Messiah, I am not the Messiah, and no amount of Trinitarian witchery is going to change that. "Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ." Gal 3:16 Now, what is Paul saying below? That we are all in union with Christ. We are not the Christ; we are one in solidarity. It says nothing about promises made to Abraham about blessings. "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Gal 3:28 You are using the Trinity's way of interpreting scripture to confirm your bias. Paul is talking about not separating by gender, race, male or female. He's not giving you some puzzle piece to confirm they are the same "person" as Christ, so you can justify the promises of a SINGLE INDIVIDUAL named Christ and say the heirs are part of the promises to Abraham when Paul clearly says they are not. You add words to scriptures and twist their context to fit your narrative. That's what I mean by cobbling and twisting. Back in the seat as judge, I see. Joshua
Yes, 'the children/seed of Abraham are those of faith,' as you say here, but they are also the ones through whom 'all the nations will be blessed,' which is what you deny. Not sure why you bring up the trinity; it has nothing to do with the subject. Show me a single scripture reference work that denies that the body of Christ is Abraham's seed and by means of which all the nations will be blessed, as Paul puts it in Ga 3. You are denying the very foundation and purpose of Christianity. Why?
Well, if you say so, it must be true. I never said that they wouldn't bring blessings, you assume. I said Paul never says that, and God doesn't say that to Abraham. As judges, they will bring blessings and judgment. But according to Paul it is not through them the nations are blessed, it's through the Messiah, and the elect are not included in those promises to Abraham. You are clearly blinded to what I've been saying. It's okay; our Lord's Will be done. (Luk 24:45) lol... The promises through Abraham were about a "single individual, not the many (a word for Israel as a whole), but the Messiah." lol... But, according to you, Paul means the heirs bring blessings, too, because we are one with Christ as He is one with His Father. Got it...lol. Yet you ask this question below. lol.... You are clearly oblivious to what I am saying. Again, I never said they don't bring blessings. But I am CLEARLY saying Paul doesn't say they do. I think we've pretty much covered the promises to Abraham. What do you say we move on, huh? Joshua
These four statements are all consecutively in your one paragraph and contradict each other, quote: 'they will bring blessings and judgment,' but 'it is not through them the nations are blessed;' - so which is it? And again: 'as judges they will bring blessings and judgment,' but 'the elect are not included in those promises to Abraham,' - so what are 'those promises' if not to 'bring blessings' to the nations? Jesus said this about the seed of Abraham, his Brothers: "And to him that conquers and observes my deeds down to the end I will give authority over the nations, and he shall shepherd the nations with an iron rod so that they will be broken like clay vessels, the same as I have received from my Father." Re 2:26,27 And again: "And I saw thrones, and there were those who sat down on them, and power of judging was given them; yes, I saw the souls of those executed with the ax for the witness they bore to Jesus . . . and they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years." Re 20:4 Hence, the nations are clearly to be blessed by Christ's Brothers, the Body of Christ, who are Abraham's seed along with Christ during the 1000 years, when they rule as kings and judges over them. You seem to be quite bothered by the fact that Jehovah purposed for Jesus to share the blessing of the nations with His Brothers. Thanks for the flattering attribution, but sorry, I cannot take credit for coming up with the above concept and description of reality, it is actually Jesus who did: " . . . in order that they may all be one, just as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You, that they also may be in Us, in order that the world may believe that You sent Me forth." Joh 17:21 This seems like a poor attempt at dissimulation to me, because Paul says that 'all those in Christ are the seed,' and God's promise to Abraham is that 'all the nations will be blessed through his seed,' hence, Paul clearly implies that the nations will be blessed by the Brothers of Christ upon His return with them in power and glory. I agree, good idea; peace to you brother; Harry
Reverting back more generally to 'What is the house of God with which judgment starts,' I am interested in well reasoned and scripturally supported arguments as to why WT / JWs are God's exclusive people here on earth, just as they claim. Here are some of the arguments for the affirmative: They are the only ones preaching 'the kingdom.' They are the only ones who make God's Name known. They are the only ones who know what the parousia of Christ is. Only they know that Satan is the god of this world and that the whole world is under his power. They are the only people preaching the truth from the Bible. God always had an organized people here on earth and JWs are it today. Jesus appointed the 'faithful slave' over His 'domestics' whom He uses to direct the WT. Feel free, anyone, to add to the list, or provide reasons to the contrary. Harry
I did not contradict myself. You just don't understand what I'm saying. So what? Even if Jesus said His brothers would bring blessings to the nations (which He doesn't), that still doesn't change the fact that Paul says the promises to Abraham were about a single individual, not many. Who do you think the "many" are that Paul is talking about? The many are the rest of Abraham's seed. Paul was very clear. You're the one going beyond the text. That doesn't rule them out from bringing blessings to the nations, but you keep making an assumption in the text that is not there. I can believe they will bring blessings without buying into your mishandling of the text. Being one in Christ is a different context to the promises to Abraham. You seem to assume allot. I clearly said they would bring blessings to nations by proxy. What I care about is truth. The truth is the promises to Abraham were about a single individual, not many. And that single individual was Christ. Are you Christ? I don't understand why you don't believe in the Trinity then, Jesus said He was one with His Father. What's the difference in that and your assumptions with being one in Christ and the promises to Abraham? We are all human. So if I say a single human named Jim is going to jump off a bridge, surely I mean all humans are going to jump off a bridge, right? After all, we're all human. Regardless, the children of Abraham are anyone with faith, not just a select few. And you don't see it. You make assumptions in my speech, and you obviously make the same assumptions in the text. Who has been the one not understanding who in this discussion? You make assumptions without truly trying to understand the speaker. Only the speaker can define their meaning. Whatever, we can move on.
One more question on this, Harry: Who are the "offsprings" that Paul is talking about? "Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ." Gal 3:16