Isn't that what words are for, to convey what you mean and make yourself understood? I am slow to pick up on intended meanings unless clearly expressed. And who or what is Christ? There is Jesus, who is commonly called Christ, or the Christ, meaning Anointed, or the Anointed One, but He is not the only One anointed. The Christ is many members in one Body. 1Co 12:12; Ro 12:4 This right there is the sacred secret about the Christ, which is what Christianity is all about. Col 4:3; Lu 8:10 There are also false Christs, which is why John says, 'he that gains the knowledge of God listens to us; he that does not listen to us does not originate with God.' 1 Joh 4:6 Good question; so, Jesus being one with the Father is the same as Jesus being one with those whom the Father has given Him, but the difference with the trinity is that it denies the Father as being the Originator of the oneness with His Son Jesus - and, hence, Jesus being derived from the Father as to His origin - although trinitarians generally do not deny that a believer's oneness with the Father issues from Him through Jesus, based upon His dying for them. This oneness - in both cases - is obviously in spirit, meaning, the Holy Spirit, which proceeds from the Father in His relationship to Jesus, and proceeds from both Father and Son in relation to those born of God. That is an interesting illustration, and - ironically - it holds true in our case, in that when Adam sinned 6000 years ago, you sinned by virtue of being his descendant, the proof of which is that now you are a sinner, even if against your choice. Ro 5:12 That is why Christ had to die - for God's righteousness - and why we have to believe. Lu 24:26; Ro 1:17; 1 Joh 5:10 This is the Gospel, the Good News about Jesus Christ, the essence of Christianity. Only 'the children [plural] by the promise are counted as the seed' of Abraham, and then only those 'born of the Spirit,' 'as many as Jehovah our God may call to Him.' Ro 9:8; Ga 4:29,30; Acts 2:39 Yes, please do so; I also try my best, Harry
Yes, that is the oneness in Christ that all of the NT - and Paul especially - talks about, the 'sacred secret about the Christ' being one Body with many members, the 'understanding' of which needs to be 'granted' by God - something no human can do for another. Col 4:3; Lu 8:10 The understanding of salvation can only be appropriated by faith.
No, that is incorrect. And trust me, there are four doctorates of psychology in my family, and it's drilled into my head. It is not the job of the speaker to read your mind and automatically know what you are not going to understand. It's the listener's job to ask qualifying questions and not to assume. Most of the time, the speaker said exactly what they meant, and others interpreted rather than taking the speaker at their word. No one can read your mind; the only thing you can do is you. Therefore, you say what you think. It's the listeners' job to understand. Apparently, this is where your mistake is. Paul says the "offsprings" are not included. Reread it... Joshua
Yes they are, to wit: " . . . in order for the promise to be sure to all his seed, not only to that which adheres to the Law, but also to that which adheres to the faith of Abraham." Ro 4:16 Your not believing this is prejudicial to your spiritual interests - just saying; no skin off of my nose. Harry
All of Abrahams's seed benefit from the promises to Abraham, Harry. The question is through whom those blessings come. The promises Paul is talking about is the bringing of blessings to the nations and conquering the gates of His enemy, Harry. The question is, who were the "offspring" God was talking about? "Through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed," Gen 22:18 Okay, I'll walk you through the scripture word for word. #1 "Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring." This part is self-explanatory; we both agree on this section. #2 "It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many," The promises do not say offspring'SSSSSSS. Do you see the SSSSS? That makes offspring plural when you add an S. Paul says the bringing of blessings did not include the offspring'sssssss, plural. More than one offspring of Abraham would not bring blessings to the rest of the offspring. The rest of the offspring receive those blessings; Harry, they don't bring them. Then Paul clarifies by saying, "offspring'ssssss" means "many." That means the promises to Abraham did not say "many offsprings" would bring blessings to the nations. #3 "but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” Since the promises to bring blessings didn't include many offspring, they referred to only one singular offspring. Only one offspring would bring blessings to all of Abraham's other offspring. #4 "who is Christ." Gal 3:16 He is the Messiah. ------- -Please, Lord, allow Harry's eyes to be opened- Joshua
Please cite a Scripture for that. To the contrary, it says that those born supernaturally by means of God's promise, meaning born of the Spirit as Sons of God, which is Jesus and His Brothers, are the seed or offspring of Abraham, and they together will bless all the nations - not each other - during the 1000 years after Christ's public coming. The offspring of Abraham 'are children belonging to the promise of a Divinely arranged birth, as foreshadowed by Isaac; but just as then, the one born in a natural way began persecuting the one born miraculously by God's promise, so also now; nevertheless, what does the Scripture say? 'Drive out the servant girl and the natural offspring of Abraham, for by no means shall he be heir with the supernatural seed of Abraham.' Gal 4:27-31 Why do you stop there half way through Paul's explanation, and don't read to the end of the chapter where he clarifies that this one seed is Christ - one Body of anointed believers with Jesus as Head? You need to read the whole NT, not just one verse like Gal 3:16, in order to understand what the Christian faith is all about. You seem to be new to it all.
That is literally what Gal 3:16 says. And Gal 3:28 has nothing to do with the promises to Abraham. You are putting 2+2 together and making 5. That's what the 430 years are for. From the time of the promises to Abraham of a single offspring bringing blessings there would be 430 years. And that was at the Isaac sacrifice narritive. That's Paul's intent for even bringing it up. According to your way of interpretation we should all be sacrificed for the sins of mankind, we'll all ride a donkey, etc. Your way of interpreting can't just apply here, it has to apply everywhere, Harry. You also constantly contradict yourself, like below. ------- Your insults will not change your blindness in the text. I will not judge you, as you have me on several occasions. I did my job on this subject, and it's up to God whether your eyes are opened or not. (Luk 24:45) Joshua
Both premise and deduction are wrong; where do you get the idea that Abraham took Isaac to be sacrificed 430 years after God's promise to him? Interesting that you mention this, because when Christ died, so did the chosen ones, and when He rose from the dead, so did they, and as Paul further elaborates, 'We have an altar from which those who do sacred service at the tent have no authority to eat; for the bodies of those animals whose blood is taken into the holy place by the high priest for sin are burned up outside the camp,' meaning, even the high priest himself was not allowed to share in the atonement sacrifice, as by implication the anointed are doing, because 'He was obliged to become like His brothers in all respects.' Gal 2:20; Heb 13:10-14; 2:17 I was quoting Paul's word there, so the contradiction you are flagging is by him - your word against his. I was just trying to be charitable. Harry
I never said that. When reading others' words, you assume a lot and appear to have difficulty understanding their intent. I was quoting your contradictions, not any contradiction in the Word. You have a seriously hard time understanding other people. You assume, and it has nothing to do with the other person's words. I've known people like you all of my life. At 65, you still haven't figured out how communication works. I quoted your words to show that your interpretation of the scriptures contradicted your own understandings. But you think you know it all already. I don't need your charity. I would suggest a little more humility on your part. Joshua PS: Tell me the truth: Do you have some special commission from God? Are you prophesied to come in the Bible?
The Jews stayed in Egypt for 430 years - if that is what you mean by 430 years - but God's promise to Abraham was given way before that, and had nothing to do with the giving of the Law; and what is more, this imagined 'blessing' of the Law is referred to in Gal 3 by Paul as 'the curse of the Law,' - some 'blessed' curse indeed. And besides, how exactly did Jesus - as the seed - bring blessings to 'all the nations of the earth' - as promised - at the time Israel left Egypt? By the way, the Law was transmitted by angels - not given by the promised seed of Abraham - and bestowed neither truth nor blessing - to wit: "Because the Law was given through Moses, grace and truth came to be through Jesus Christ." Acts 7:53; Gal 3:19; Jo 1:17 No; but to quote Jesus: "Most truly I say to you, What we know we speak, and what we have seen we bear witness of, but you people do not receive the witness we give." No, I just read and believe what God's grace has shown me. Harry
Nowhere in the text does it say this. My words mean what they say. I said "from" the Isaac narrative, there would be 430 years. I never said what occurred ending those years. It was not germane to the topic. The 430 years began at the Isaac sacrifice, and the Law came 430 years later. Again, Paul is talking about a promise specifically regarding a singular individual, the Messiah, not just all of Abraham's offspring. Of course, God gave Abraham promises regarding his offspring before that, but Paul is talking about one that involved a single individual, the Messiah. What are you talking about? Man, you assume constantly. The blessings through Christ and the promises to Abraham in the Issac sacrifice narrative have not come yet. (For a more detailed explanation of the chronology of the promises in the Messiah, please refer to my reply in the Covenants thread.) And surely you couldn't deceive yourself, right? Okay... No one could understand Scripture without constantly deceiving themselves. Understanding Scripture is a matter of constantly and immediately admitting when you are wrong until there are no longer any paradoxes. God only gave you your current understanding if it is correct. Look, here you go: Joshua
My Bible has this: "And the dwelling of the sons of Israel, who had dwelt in Egypt, was four hundred and thirty years." Ex 12:40 Since it was you that mentioned 430 years, the only logical conclusion was that you referred to this text. Why would you introduce a reference to 430 years when that is not relevant to your topic? And then you complain that I don't get what you say; yeah, no wonder. So now, one sentence later, the 430 years are relevant to your topic, your point that the blessing through the seed of Abraham is instantiated - at least partially - in the giving of the Law - is that what your words mean? Agreed, with the exception that Paul interprets 'Christ' - 'your seed' - as corporate in verse 29, harking back to verse 16, to wit: "If you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham's seed, heirs with reference to a promise." Gal 3 The 'blessings through Christ' have had a first fulfillment during the past 2000 years, when thousands of people were declared righteous due to their faith in the good news, just as it is written: "Now the Scripture, seeing in advance that God would declare people of the nations righteous due to faith, declared the good news beforehand to Abraham, namely: 'By means of you all the nations will be blessed.'" Gal 3:8 Yes, the blessing of the nations also has a second fulfillment, when those blessed by the first fulfillment will be put in charge of bringing about the second during the 1000 years. That's why we are talking. I agree. Harry
You are right, I misspoke. For some reason I was thinking you were saying they were captive in Egypt for 430 years, but of course they began sojourning to Egypt much earlier than their captivity. Give me some time with this before I fully respond as you have given me something to consider. Joshua
Joshua, I am not inquiring about your date here or the 2,300 days, I just would like to know what Scriptures can you cite that show what you are referring to as an apostasy with God's people? Also, who are you referring to as being 'God's people'?
Greetings, Alvy, and welcome to the forum! The "day of the lord" will not come untill the apostasy comes first. "Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction." 2Th 2:3 "Apostasy" or "falling away" occurs through those who represent God on earth but at some point do not continue in His commands. "For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, become partakers of the Holy Spirit, tasted the good word of God and the miracles of the coming age, and then have committed apostasy, to renew them again to repentance, since they are crucifying the Son of God for themselves all over again and holding him up to contempt." Heb 6:4-6 We see this through the mark of the beast. Buying and selling in Rev represent spiritual responsibilities. "This calls for wisdom: Let the one who has insight calculate the beast’s number, for it is man’s number, and his number is 666." Rev 13:18 "I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see." Rev 3:18 The "man's number" is from Solomon's apostasy. He was gathering more to himself than God commanded as he fell away into apostasy. "Now the weight of gold that came to Solomon in one year was 666 talents of gold," 1Kgs 10:14 And we see this same apostasy narrative in the image measuring 60x6x6 that Nebuchadnezzar set up. "King Nebuchadnezzar made an image of gold, whose height was sixty cubits and its breadth six cubits." Dan 3:1 We see this same narrative in the gold calf statue of the Israelites in the wilderness. Just as our Lord told us to buy gold from Him, these past gold narratives representing apostasy are a shadow of what is to come that will reveal the MOL. The apostasy not having come yet keeps the MOL from being revealed. (2Th 2) That's an excellent question. The woman who was the enemy of the snake in the Garden of Eden represents the means by which God brings about His plans to separate the light from darkness. This is the same woman as in Rev 12. God's plans include His people on earth accomplishing their responsibilities before Him. In my books, I don't name them specifically because I prefer not to state something as fact that is not the expressed intent of God throughout Scripture. However, I do have my opinions. The Watchtower has fulfilled a significant role in following our Lord's command to preach the kingdom. However, along with them, many other Christian entities will no doubt fall into apostasy when the wild beast sets up the image. So, my current guess is that God's people today are those who are accurately doing His will. However, as we read throughout the Prophets and see around us, they commit grave errors toward the people God has placed in their charge, just as the Jewish leaders of our Lord's time. The image set up by the beast will be similar to the ideology at the Tower of Babel. It will represent a coming together into a conglomerate agreement to bring peace through equality. If I am correct, this will occur on Dec 28, 2028. Joshua
[2 However, brothers, concerning the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you 2 not to be quickly shaken from your reason nor to be alarmed either by an inspired statement or by a spoken message or by a letter appearing to be from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here.3 Let no one lead you astray in any way, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction. 4 He stands in opposition and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits down in the temple of God, publicly showing himself to be a god.] So to be clear, the day of the Lord is when Jesus comes and gathers his chosen and Jesus will not come until the apostasy connected with the MOL comes first? Is the apostasy here with the MOL the same as the apostasy with the DT/KOTN? Is the MOL the same entity as the DT/KOTN? [31 And arms will stand up, proceeding from him; and they will profane the sanctuary, the fortress, and remove the constant feature. “And they will put in place the disgusting thing that causes desolation. 32 “And those who act wickedly against the covenant, he will lead into apostasy by means of smooth words. But the people who know their God will prevail and act effectively.36 “The king will do as he pleases, and he will exalt himself and magnify himself above every god; and against the God of gods he will speak astonishing things. And he will prove successful until the denunciation comes to a finish; because what is determined must take place. 37 He will show no regard for the God of his fathers; nor will he show regard for the desire of women or for any other god, but he will magnify himself over everyone.] What do you say is meant by it saying the 'field' is the 'world'? [38 the field is the world. As for the fine seed, these are the sons of the Kingdom, but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one]
Just marking the following at this time. I find them quite interesting based on my understandings as well as a recent experience of mine. Keep in mind that I have only seen/read this topic between you and Joshua for the first time yesterday, so me seeing what and who is mentioned here, is interesting timing to me.
What about that one? Not sure of your answer there. What I am looking to establish is where are the wheat and weeds said to be found according to Jesus' illustration. It's first said that they are in the field but then in explaining the illustration it is said that the field is the world. Do you agree that the WTS nor any other one religion is the field/world? [36 Then after dismissing the crowds, he went into the house. His disciples came to him and said: “Explain to us the illustration of the weeds in the field.” 37 In response he said: “The sower of the fine seed is the Son of man; 38 the field is the world. As for the fine seed, these are the sons of the Kingdom, but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one,]
Here are some questions we may ask: Who or what does the MoL oppose? WT? If so, why? Because they claim to be Christian? Ok, yes; but are they the only ones doing so here on earth? If someone hated rats and wanted to wipe them out from his premises, would he focus on one rat and leave the others alone? This makes me conclude that the MoL is anti Christ, in opposition to Christianity in all its manifestations in this world, and which he is going to trample and desolate, in order to replace it with global worship of the image of the revived beast as the 'promised kingdom of God on earth,' the 'incoming kingdom' that WT has been preaching worldwide since its founding. I am just saying this to show how ridiculous RK's interpretation is. It says, 'every so-called god or object of worship;' - if this was meant to apply only to JWs, what other 'so-called gods or objects of worship' do they have apart from 'the organization?' Hence, the MoL cannot be a WT internal thing limited only to JWs, but must be a global deception affecting mankind as a whole. If the MoL would seat himself in the WT, publicly proclaiming himself to be god, the whole world would jeer and laugh their heads off. And besides, Jesus said that the real chosen ones would not be mislead by false Christs, so that the anti-Christ, by definition, cannot be a member of Christ's body, nor be recognized by them as some sort of authority, which is not to say that the WT anointed will not join the global MoL system, seeing their 'Christ' has already been ruling the world behind the scenes for 110 years and counting. The 'temple of the god' here simply means Christianity as such, which in the Christian west is still recognized as representing the only true revelation of the God of the Bible in Jesus Christ. Just some thoughts on this text to consider. Harry