That's a little complex. Since there are 1290 days between the constant feature being removed and the disgusting thing being placed, the entity from the sea in Rev 13 takes away the constant feature and then stands in a holy place after going into and out of the abyss. The death stroke to one of the heads is not the abyssing. Essentially, the MOL, DT, and KOTN are the same entities, but we see them in different periods made up of varying entities. For example, the lion's mouth that speaks the blasphemies in Rev 13 is BTG, and the head with the deathstroke reborn. BTG will not be part of the whole that stands in a holy place because the beast kills her just before that moment. Essentially, we can say they are the same unless we get into discussing chronology details. Joshua
Well, the 8th king is the conglomerate from the abyss. Whether that is the UN, EU, NATO, or some newly formed entity, we don't know yet. Remember, the MOL isn't even revealed until the apostasy comes. We will know who the MOL is when they set up the image of the beast. But I'm still with you... The UN seems likely. Joshua
The death stroke has to be the abyssing the time that it is not. [8 The wild beast that you saw was, but is not, and yet is about to ascend out of the abyss, and it is to go off into destruction. And the inhabitants of the earth—those whose names have not been written in the scroll of life from the founding of the world—will be amazed when they see how the wild beast was, but is not, and yet will be present.] [3 I saw that one of its heads seemed to have been fatally wounded, but its mortal wound had been healed, and all the earth followed the wild beast with admiration. 8 And all those who dwell on the earth will worship it. From the founding of the world, not one of their names has been written in the scroll of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered.] ________________________ And the MOL has already been revealed to those that read/study the Bible in that we know he is the same as the DT/KOTN who leads the apostasy after/concurrent to being put into place. When it comes to the MOL being revealed in fulfillment of Scriptures, it is referring to the time he appears/comes on scene/given authority/is put in holy place/sits in temple. [13 These have one thought, so they give their power and authority to the wild beast.] [5 It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months. 7 It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. 10 If anyone is meant for captivity, he will go into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. This is where it calls for endurance and faith on the part of the holy ones.11 Then I saw another wild beast...14 It misleads those who dwell on the earth, because of the signs that it was permitted to perform in the sight of the wild beast, while it tells those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the wild beast that had the sword-stroke and yet revived. 15 And it was permitted to give breath to the image of the wild beast, so that the image of the wild beast should both speak and cause to be killed all those who refuse to worship the image of the wild beast.16 It puts under compulsion all people—the small and the great, the rich and the poor, the free and the slaves—that these should be marked on their right hand or on their forehead, 17 and that nobody can buy or sell except a person having the mark, the name of the wild beast or the number of its name. [6And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, and he had everlasting good news to declare to those who dwell on the earth, to every nation and tribe and tongue and people. 7 He was saying in a loud voice: “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of judgment by him has arrived, so worship the One who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and the springs of water.”9 Another angel, a third, followed them, saying in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the wild beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God that is poured out undiluted into the cup of His wrath, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb.12 Here is where it calls for endurance on the part of the holy ones, those who keep the commandments of God and hold fast to the faith of Jesus.”] [15 “Therefore, when you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken about by Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place (let the reader use discernment),] [31 And arms will stand up, proceeding from him; and they will profane the sanctuary, the fortress, and remove the constant feature. And they will put in place the disgusting thing that causes desolation. 32 “And those who act wickedly against the covenant, he will lead into apostasy by means of smooth words. But the people who know their God will prevail and act effectively. 33 And those having insight among the people will impart understanding to the many. And they will be made to stumble by sword and by flame, by captivity and by plundering, for some days. 36 “The king will do as he pleases, and he will exalt himself and magnify himself above every god; and against the God of gods he will speak astonishing things. And he will prove successful until the denunciation comes to a finish; because what is determined must take place. 37 He will show no regard for the God of his fathers; nor will he show regard for the desire of women or for any other god, but he will magnify himself over everyone.] [4 He stands in opposition and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits down in the temple of God, publicly showing himself to be a god. 9 But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders 10 and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11 That is why God lets a deceptive influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.] [20 And the wild beast was caught, and along with it the false prophet that performed in front of it the signs with which he misled those who received the mark of the wild beast and those who worship its image. While still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulfur. 21 But the rest were killed off with the long sword that proceeded out of the mouth of the one seated on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.]
How did John see the wild beast? This scripture says, "The wild beast that you saw was." The beast he saw was carrying the woman before the abyssing, correct? That's how the beast "was." After that, "it is not" when it goes into the abyss. The woman rides the beast before the abyssing and is attacked and killed after the beast rises from the abyss. So again, how did John see the beast before the abyssing? The lion represents Babylon in Daniel, right? The healed condition of the lion in Dan 7 represents the healing of Babylon. You know, the eagle feathers plucked out that Nebbi grew. The lion stands up like a man after Nebbi was made to go on all fours. The heart of a man is given to the lion after the heart of the beast to Nebbi. You see, the tree of Dan 4 represents the fall and rise of Babylon into BTG. Therefore, BTG is represented in the beast of Rev 13 as the lion's mouth. It is the entity in that group that speaks blasphemous words. That beast cannot be from the abyss yet because BTG is still within it (besides the fact the chronology makes it impossible). Also, the beast in Rev 13 is from the sea, not the abyss. If you want to understand why the deathstroke is not the abyssing through the chronology, I can walk you through it. Here is the first step: There are 1290 days between the constant feature being removed and the disgusting thing being placed. Agreed? Joshua
If you think that it saying it has a lion's mouth means that that represents BTG within it, then that means that it being like a leopard and feet of a bear have to be in it as well. And it coming from the abyss does not change that it comes from the sea. It comes from the sea as its origin back with its first head when it was Egypt and has lived on one head at a time. Now in the 7th head when it receives the stroke the beast for the first time will seem as though dead/in the abyss/is not. Then it getting revied is it coming out of the abyss/being present again. You can't really think that there are two separate times/events where people are not written in the scroll of life based on their viewing the beast for coming out of the abyss and being revived? The beast was = the time prior to the death-stroke The death-stroke = time is not/in the abyss Death-stroke healed = out of the abyss/is present again When Jesus comes and throws the beast and the false prophet into the fiery lake it is referring to the beast that got the death stroke. That beast only gets 42 months. It gets those 42 months after it gets healed. It does not go into the abyss during those 42 months. Jesus comes soon after those 42 months end. 3 I saw that one of its heads seemed to have been fatally wounded, but its mortal wound had been healed, and all the earth followed the wild beast with admiration. 11 Then I saw another wild beast 12 It exercises all the authority of the first wild beast in its sight. And it makes the earth and its inhabitants worship the first wild beast, whose mortal wound was healed. 14 It misleads those who dwell on the earth, because of the signs that it was permitted to perform in the sight of the wild beast, 20 And the wild beast was caught, and along with it the false prophet that performed in front of it the signs with which he misled those who received the mark of the wild beast and those who worship its image. While still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulfur. 21 But the rest were killed off with the long sword that proceeded out of the mouth of the one seated on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.
The leopard and bear are also in the first beast of Rev 13. The second beast of Rev 13 contains the fourth fierce beast and little horn of Dan 7. The beasts are a conglomerate of nation-states. This is an assumption. Why is only one head of Rev 13 said to have a deathstroke and then healed, and not the others? You are assuming the deathstroke to one head is the abyssing of the entire beast. What if you are wrong? You make another assumption here. The angel clearly says, "The beast you saw was." Where did John see the beast last? "And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness, and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was full of blasphemous names, and it had seven heads and ten horns. John saw the beast before the abyssing, Alvy. That's what the angel is talking about. There is no reason to leave that conversation to look for where the beast "was." John "saw" it in verse 3. Keep in mind that these are two people having a conversation in Rev 17. There is no need to interpret; all one needs to do is follow the conversation. The entire beast comes from the abyss, not just one head. Trust me, I'm very familiar with your assertion; just about everyone believes the way you do. It only acts 42 months toward the courtyard. One cannot add more than what is said. That leaves open acting for periods longer than that. What I am saying is one must use the scientific method. You cannot know something unless it is explicitly stated. Let's say the image of Dan 2 has occurred several times throughout human history. And let's use your UN possibility for the 8th king: The UN was established in 1945 after the League of Nations fell. The UN, coming from the sea of mankind, could have begun then. Again, that beast is a collection of nations. The 8th king is a one-world order, not a collection of nation-states. I'm not saying this graph is accurate, but I'm adding it to offer a suggestion. Joshua
I never claimed to the entire beast did not come from the abyss. I said it originally comes from the sea with 7 heads. Each head represents a different world power, one ruling at a time. When one head is ruling the beast as a whole is alive and well. When you get to the 7th head, heads 1-6 are not active so only the 7th head is keeping the beast alive and well during that time, so if it gets the death-stroke at this point then that is when the beast no longer seems alive as a whole for the first time since it came out of the sea. But then with the healing of the head the beast is alive and well again and it is at that point when it is said that people will look at the beast with admiration and follow it and that the ones that do, their names are not written in the scroll of life. Again look here: [3 I saw that one of its heads seemed to have been fatally wounded, but its mortal wound had been healed, and all the earth followed the wild beast with admiration.4 And they worshipped the dragon because it gave the authority to the wild beast, and they worshipped the wild beast with the words: “Who is like the wild beast, and who can do battle with it?” 8 And all those who dwell on the earth will worship it. From the founding of the world, not one of their names has been written in the scroll of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered. 11 Then I saw another wild beast 12 It exercises all the authority of the first wild beast in its sight. And it makes the earth and its inhabitants worship the first wild beast, whose mortal wound was healed.14 It misleads those who dwell on the earth, because of the signs that it was permitted to perform in the sight of the wild beast, 20 And the wild beast was caught, and along with it the false prophet that performed in front of it the signs with which he misled those who received the mark of the wild beast and those who worship its image. While still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulfur. 21 But the rest were killed off with the long sword that proceeded out of the mouth of the one seated on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.] We know for sure that this is talking about the ch 13 beast from sea and it comes to his end when Jesus comes at Armageddon. When and how does your beast go off into destruction? [7 So the angel said to me: “Why is it that you were amazed? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the wild beast that is carrying her and that has the seven heads and the ten horns: 8 The wild beast that you saw was, but is not, and yet is about to ascend out of the abyss, and it is to go off into destruction. And the inhabitants of the earth—those whose names have not been written in the scroll of life from the founding of the world—will be amazed when they see how the wild beast was, but is not, and yet will be present.9 “This calls for a mind that has wisdom: The seven heads mean seven mountains, where the woman sits on top. 10 And there are seven kings: Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet arrived; but when he does arrive, he must remain a short while. 11 And the wild beast that was but is not, it is also an eighth king, but it springs from the seven, and it goes off into destruction.]
Actually, that is you making assumption here. Where did you get that it has 42 months to act toward the courtyard? I read about it be given 42 months in the ch 13. It is in ch 11 where the courtyard is trampled 42 months by the nations, not by the beast from the sea. [5 It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months. 6 And it opened its mouth in blasphemies against God to blaspheme his name and his dwelling place, even those residing in heaven. 7 It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation.] [2 But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, leave it out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for 42 months.] If you can connect those two, why can't I connect these: [3 I saw that one of its heads seemed to have been fatally wounded, but its mortal wound had been healed, and all the earth followed the wild beast with admiration. 8 And all those who dwell on the earth will worship it. From the founding of the world, not one of their names has been written in the scroll of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered.] [11 Then I saw another wild beast...14 It misleads those who dwell on the earth, because of the signs that it was permitted to perform in the sight of the wild beast, while it tells those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the wild beast that had the sword-stroke and yet revived. [8 The wild beast that you saw was, but is not, and yet is about to ascend out of the abyss, and it is to go off into destruction. And the inhabitants of the earth—those whose names have not been written in the scroll of life from the founding of the world—will be amazed when they see how the wild beast was, but is not, and yet will be present.]
Can you show a precedence for this? Nothing indicates in the text that they aren't all present at once. How can you show that only one exists at a time? The beast is said to arise out of the sea as a whole, not one at a time. A beast has its body parts all at once. Beasts are nation states: therefore this is a nation state made up of many individual states. Beasts, heads, and horns are nations. How am I assuming? The first beast of Rev 13 is made up of beasts and nation heads. They are in a conglomerate form like the UN. The 42 months are one and the same, along with the 1260 days and time, times and half a time. If you view the first beast of Rev 13 as only a single nation ruling at a time, you would assume Rev 11's 42 months are different than Rev 13's 42 months. My view isn't the assumption; yours is. My view is the rational one. Yours is the view that has to explain the rational view wrong. (1 Cor 12:12-27) Daniel's beasts rule one at a time because each nation conquers the next, as they are not said to all be in oneness as they are in Rev 13. The Two witnesses are dressed in sackcloth for 42 months, a sign of mourning the removal of the daily sacrifice/preaching work. (Heb 13:15,16) The wild beast already exists with the deathstroke healed. The Holy See is Babylon reborn into BTG. It is BTG that was healed in 325 CE. That happens to be 2520 years after the Tower of Babel. (Dan 4) Soon, the UN or US and the Holy See set up an equity agenda Christianity will adopt. That is the 666. Years later, the KOTN defeats the KOTS, and the fierce beast goes down as the whole beast enters the abyss along with it. The 8th king arises, attacks BTG, and then later attacks the remaining 144k just before our Lord appears in the clouds and destroys the wild beast at Armageddon. The Beast in Rev 13 removes the daily sacrifice, and then 1290 days later, it stands in a holy place after coming out of the abyss as the 8th king. (7 Times, 7 Years Begin) 666: December 28, 2028 – Asara B’Tevet | (2,300 Days Begin) Apostasy of God’s People: September 10, 2029 – Rosh Hashanah/Gedaliah | (1,260, 1,290, 1,335, 430 Days Begin) Preaching Given to Babylon: May 2, 2032 | (430 Days End) Spiritual Walls Breached: July 6, 2033 – 9th Tammuz | Spiritual Temple’s Destruction: August 5, 2033 – 10th AV | (777th Day, 70 Weeks Begin) Call to Rebuild: June 17, 2034 | (450 Days Begin) Governmental Collapse: October 4, 2034 – Sukkot | (1,260 Days End) Coronation: October 13, 2035 – Yom Kippur | (1,290 Days End) Abomination: November 12, 2035 | (7 Times End) Christ Appears: November 22, 2035 | (7 Years, 2,300, 1,335 Days End) The Final Kingdom: December 28, 2035 – Hanukkah Joshua
[10 And there are seven kings: Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet arrived; but when he does arrive, he must remain a short while.11 And the wild beast that was but is not, it is also an eighth king, but it springs from the seven, and it goes off into destruction.] [8 The wild beast that you saw was, but is not, and yet is about to ascend out of the abyss, and it is to go off into destruction. And the inhabitants of the earth—those whose names have not been written in the scroll of life from the founding of the world—will be amazed when they see how the wild beast was, but is not, and yet will be present.] Do you believe that your beast that comes out of the abyss is ALL 7 kings at the time it 'was'? How do you describe what is the cause that makes your beast to be in the 'is not' stage? Is the 'is not' stage when it goes into the abyss? Are all 7 kings in the abyss when the beast 'is not'? Do all 7 kings come out of the abyss? Is this beast the 8th king any time prior to coming out of the abyss? We have already spoken about this and agreed that the apostasy has to do with the MOL/KOTN and does not occur until the KOTN is put into place. What is this apostasy here that you keep citing with an actually start date? And why do you connect it with God's people, his people are not led into apostasy that is what makes them his people. The apostasy with the KOTN/MOL/8th king has to do with the hour of test/hour of judgment to either worship Jehovah and refuse the MOTB or take the MOTB and thereby reject Jehovah. (The only true apostasy there is.) [31 And arms will stand up, proceeding from him; and they will profane the sanctuary, the fortress, and remove the constant feature. “And they will put in place the disgusting thing that causes desolation. 32 “And those who act wickedly against the covenant, he will lead into apostasy by means of smooth words. But the people who know their God will prevail and act effectively.] [6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, and he had everlasting good news to declare to those who dwell on the earth, to every nation and tribe and tongue and people. 7 He was saying in a loud voice: “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of judgment by him has arrived, so worship the One who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and the springs of water.”9 Another angel, a third, followed them, saying in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the wild beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God that is poured out undiluted into the cup of His wrath, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb.] [9 But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders 10 and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11 That is why God lets a deceptive influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.]
All seven heads exist at once in a conglomerate like the UN. The KOTN and the KOTS are included in these heads. "The two kings, with their hearts bent on evil, will sit at the same table and lie to each other, but to no avail, because an end will still come at the appointed time." Dan 11:27 At a later time (after the apostasy), the KOTN attacks and conquers the KOTS. "At the time of the end, the king of the south shall attackg him, but the king of the north shall rush upon him like a whirlwind, with chariots and horsemen, and with many ships." Dan 11:40 Since these two are part of the beast of Rev 13, the conglomerate peacekeeping entity like the UN will go into the abyss when WWIII begins. This is the same reason the League of Nations failed: it could not prevent WWII. Five of those heads/nations will be the KOTS. The one that "is" or remains is the KOTN, the victor. All of this occurs in one moment in the end during Sukkot. "The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness. People gnawed their tongues in anguish." Rev 16:10 The remaining nations give their power over to the 8th king. "And as I looked, the beast was killed, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire. As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time." Dan 7:11,12 Five nations will no longer exist (politically, financially, destruction?), and a new UN-like creation will be the 8th king, a one-world order. KOTN attacks the KOTS. Republics fail, and the UN/beast collapses, failing its mission. Absolutely... The entire UN conglomerate is destroyed. Five nations as part of the KOTS no longer exist, and only the KOTN remains. Then the 8th king world power combines them all when all nations hand over their power for a time and half a time (450 days). (Dam 7:11,12) The 8th king will only exist for 450 days. That means the abyssing occurs 450 days before the first day of God's kingdom. Only the 8th world power conglomerate. Nope... Only God's people can commit apostasy. One must be a faithful servant of God before you are capable of falling away. No atheist can become an apostate. The Jewish leaders of Jesus' day were God's people, and look how they had fallen away. The Bible is full of God's people falling away into apostasy. Read Eziekel, Jerimiah, Lamantations etc... The bowls, trumpets, and the mark of the beast concern themselves with God's people. The trumpets fall on the faithful and the bowls on the apostates at the time of the end. The vegetation, trees, and grasses are metaphors throughout scripture for God's people, so the parable can be specifically about the faithful and apostates. But keep in mind that God's people are in every religion. Besides, at the time of the end, the WT is going down, and the Witnesses will be spread out into the spiritual captivity of BTG. The Hebrew holy days, which are yet to be fulfilled, line up with the chronology of Daniel only once every one thousand years. And it just so happens one of those times is coming up. The chronology I shared with you proved God's existence. (not that I ever needed proof) It is, however, interesting to have proof that no one is able to understand yet... Joshua
Yes, I agree that God's people are found in every religion. But also, there are many that are not part of any religion. What you say about an atheist not being an apostate is not so. The very fact that they do not believe in God means that they reject his existence therefore will never be said to worship him. Not worshipping him for whatever reason is a rejection of him, a turning away from him. turn away a: to refuse admittance or acceptance to b: to send away : REJECT, DISMISS reject a: to refuse to accept, consider, submit to, take for some purpose, or use apostasy 1: an act of refusing to continue to follow, obey, or recognize a religious faith (If that definition applies to a religious faith, how much more so does it apply to refusing to recognize 'the One who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and the springs of water.') There are not a number of different outcomes and groups of people during the hour of test/hour of judgment that takes place during the 8th king rule. (The 8th king is Jehovah's means he uses to bring about this test.) When the 8th king comes to power and ALL the people in the field/world are forced to either support him/it or to reject him/it, that will be the test from Jehovah of who really are his people or not. The 8th king will come about in the aftermath of WW3. Whoever supports him when he comes to power will gets God's wrath upon them after the rule of the 8th king is over when Jesus comes. Whoever rejects the 8th king when he comes to power in favor of worshipping Jehovah and supporting his (God's) kingdom that they know will come when Jesus comes after the 8th king rule, these people will be who prove to be God's people and be the said one's that make up the GC and some among them will rule with Jesus. Again, there are only two camps of people in the field/world today, either Jehovah's or Satan's. (Matthew 13:38) Jehovah's people will refuse the 8th king and Satan's will support the 8th king. Note that it is the beast that gets healed, is who the false prophet works alongside of and whom Jehovah uses for the hour of test/hour of judgment. It is this beast that Jehovah's true people have to refuse his mark/refuse to worship him/his image. It is this beast that those who do take his mark/worship him/his image, they will get God's wrath and be killed off when Jesus comes. It is this beast along with his false prophet that worked alongside of him that will also be killed off when Jesus comes. [10 ... the hour of test, which is to come upon the entire inhabited earth, to put to the test those dwelling on the earth.] [3 I saw that one of its heads seemed to have been fatally wounded, but its mortal wound had been healed, and all the earth followed the wild beast with admiration. 4 And they worshipped the dragon because it gave the authority to the wild beast, and they worshipped the wild beast with the words: “Who is like the wild beast, and who can do battle with it?” 5 It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months. 7 It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. 10 If anyone is meant for captivity, he will go into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. This is where it calls for endurance and faith on the part of the holy ones.11 Then I saw another wild beast ascending out of the earth, and it had two horns like a lamb, but it began speaking like a dragon. 12 It exercises all the authority of the first wild beast in its sight. And it makes the earth and its inhabitants worship the first wild beast, whose mortal wound was healed. 13 And it performs great signs, even making fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the sight of mankind.14 It misleads those who dwell on the earth, because of the signs that it was permitted to perform in the sight of the wild beast, while it tells those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the wild beast that had the sword-stroke and yet revived. 15 And it was permitted to give breath to the image of the wild beast, so that the image of the wild beast should both speak and cause to be killed all those who refuse to worship the image of the wild beast.16 It puts under compulsion all people—the small and the great, the rich and the poor, the free and the slaves—that these should be marked on their right hand or on their forehead, 17 and that nobody can buy or sell except a person having the mark, the name of the wild beast or the number of its name.] [6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, and he had everlasting good news to declare to those who dwell on the earth, to every nation and tribe and tongue and people. 7 He was saying in a loud voice: “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of judgment by him has arrived, so worship the One who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and the springs of water.”9 Another angel, a third, followed them, saying in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the wild beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God that is poured out undiluted into the cup of His wrath, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb.] [2 And I saw something like a sea of glass mingled with fire, and those who are victorious over the wild beast and its image and the number of its name were standing by the sea of glass, holding harps of God.] [4 And I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed for the witness they gave about Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had not worshipped the wild beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years.] [9 After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. 10 And they keep shouting with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.”13 In response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one who knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.] [20 And the wild beast was caught, and along with it the false prophet that performed in front of it the signs with which he misled those who received the mark of the wild beast and those who worship its image. While still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulfur. 21 But the rest were killed off with the long sword that proceeded out of the mouth of the one seated on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.]
We will have to agree to disagree on this. To fall away, one must be standing. Apostasy in Greek means leaving from a previous standing. Apostasia - defection, revolt. "leave, depart," which is derived from 575/apó, "away from" and 2476/histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing." I have a question for you: Do you have any unanswered questions in your understanding of prophecy? Are there contradictions you haven't worked out yet? And if so, how are you sure you are currently correct, knowing there are still paradoxes? Joshua
LOL! All I just said and that is your replied back? What about the fact that after the point of the healing is where it all leads right into the time 42 months of the beast and the hour of judgment from Jehovah? (There is no allowance in that timeframe for a separate abyssing.) What about the fact that it comes upon all people of the world, not just one so-called group? You not agreeing with what I said about apostasy is fine, but your claiming of what it is, is meaningless during that period. There is no such apostasy judgment that takes place prior to the 8th king rule. That being the case and since it occurs during the 8th king rule, then if a current atheist, a JW, a catholic, a fill in the blank_______, all take the MOTB, etc. they will all get the same wrath of God when Jesus comes. Their outcome is the same. It serves no purpose to try to apply and single out a person that once stood/believed in God but now when the time comes to support the 8th king, does so and thereby they are an apostate and therefore will be killed when Jesus comes. It's that same outcome for all that support the 8th king, they are all killed off.
It helps to remember that it doesn't matter what we think. I approach subjects like Quantum Physics, Psychology, the Bible, and many more through the scientific method. Many years ago, I discovered that knowledge wasn't the most important aspect of understanding; it was learning how to learn. That attitude of knowing it all already is prevalent in everyone, even myself, at times. When presented with cognitive dissonance, we tend to dispense paradoxes through confirmation bias. I discovered that the sooner I could admit I was wrong, the quicker I could be corrected. So I started studying with only that mindset, and I began to enjoy finding out I was wrong. Do you know why? That meant I was corrected and one step closer to the truth. You can ask my family how quick I am to admit I am wrong. My point is that I know what it is like to argue a current understanding; I had that mindset for many years. But over the last decade, I began letting go of my own assumptions and letting God's Word speak for itself, regardless of the outcome. My assumptions were irrelevant; only God's intent mattered. I wish there were more who understood what I am truly saying. It took my wife ten years to understand, and now she would tell you she finally understands it. My son is growing and learning to dispense with that natural desire to have personal truth. This is about how we treat others, how we communicate, and how we understand the world and those around us. Think about those moments when you say something you know to be true, and someone argues a falsehood you know is incorrect. I tried a sample of an avocado at a store once and told the lady avocados are my favorite fruit. She said, "They are not fruits; they are vegetables." I just looked at her and shook my head as if to say, "Yes, yes, they are." I've concluded that the only way the Truth will be known is for Him to fulfill it. No one is open enough in this world to consider they could be wrong. This isn't a stick on you; you're just coming up with what you believe are contradictions to my understanding, but what you don't know is there are no longer paradoxes in my understandings within Scriptures. Nothing has contradicted it now for several years. So, with that said... You cannot look at a puzzle with your nose to it describing every single piece. The only way to understand the image is to step back and view the entire puzzle as a whole. At which point, you will understand each and every piece. You cannot understand what each event in the chorology is until you understand what event comes before and after another. There are 1290 days between the constant feature being removed and the disgusting thing being placed. (Dan 12:11) There are 7 years from the mark of the beast to God's kingdom. The 8th king only lasts 450 days. There's plenty of time. It does... The second beast sets up the image, and all the world will support it, but only God's people can accept the mark or not. The buying and selling is the preaching work/constant feature. (Rev 3:18) Many people who support the image won't have any Christian affiliation at all. They cannot receive the mark of apostasy. Again, Alvy, only the faithful of God can fall into apostasy. That, however, does not disclude the entire world from worshipping the beast and its image. Only if you want to buy and sell will you need the mark. And what is buying and selling? "I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see." Rev 3:18 Are atheists going to buy anything from Christ? My friend, it's only meaningless in your current understanding of the end. There is if the deathstroke is not the abyssing. You don't have to be an apostate to not make it. Many Christians won't. (Mth 7:22) All nonbelievers, regardless of supporting the image of the beast, won't make it. Are you saying an apostate who doesn't support the 8th king will make it into God's kingdom? That's what we call a paradox to your understanding. Again, the 666 is only discussing God's people. An atheist is not going to be buying and selling from our Lord. Alvy, all of Scripture discusses this happening. That is the very narritive of Dan 3 and the image when Daniel and his friends pass through the fire, the Golden calf, Solomon, and every instance of Israel falling into apostasy, etc... I know, I know... Your passion is commendable, but you've got to understand Alvy: I already know an avocado is a fruit. Joshua
Sure, it is reasonable to say that 'Many people who support the image won't have any Christian affiliation at all.' But that has nothing to do with them not receiving the mark of apostasy. And you are backwards on who can buy and sell and who cannot. When the 8th king comes to power it is a result of rescuing the world from WW3. This is why WW3 is going to take place soon and is brought about on purpose so the UN can then be empowered. It is the how things are going to be under that new rule/world government that is going to impose on all people the new ways of doing things under its rule. If you want to recover from the terrible time of WW3 and return to some normal life you will have to support the new installed 8th king and live by their rules/laws, in doing so you will receive from them what you will need to buy/sell your daily needs/necessities. Revelation 13:16,17 But because this is Satan's counterfeit kingdom that is acting like it is the answer to mankind's problems having just experienced WW3, the supporting/going along with it is something that all those that have faith in God's true kingdom, will have to refuse to go along with supporting the 8th king and thereby not receiving the mark from it which would have enabled them to be able to buy/sell their daily needs/necessities. Not only that but they will also be taking captive and even killed for not supporting the 8th king. All of this is what amounts to the GT upon all those during that time who are refusing to support the 8th king. Rev 13:5,7,10;15:2;20:4 From Jehovah's view because the 8th king is his means to judge his people/his house, what it amounts to is what is said by the two angels: [6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, and he had everlasting good news to declare to those who dwell on the earth, to every nation and tribe and tongue and people.7 He was saying in a loud voice: “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of judgment by him has arrived, so worship the One who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and the springs of water.” [9 Another angel, a third, followed them, saying in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the wild beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God that is poured out undiluted into the cup of His wrath, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb.11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, and day and night they have no rest, those who worship the wild beast and its image and whoever receives the mark of its name. 12 Here is where it calls for endurance on the part of the holy ones, those who keep the commandments of God and hold fast to the faith of Jesus.”] So, all those that that take the mark/support the 8th king during its rule are viewed/judged by Jehovah to receive his wrath when Jesus comes. All who refuse the mark/to support the 8th king are doing so because they are worshipping Jehovah willing to endure the GT upon them during that time. They have the faith that at the end of those 42 months Jesus will come with God's true kingdom and deliver them from under the 8th king. [7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder among all those who exercised faith, because the witness we gave met with faith among you.] You are using the word apostate there and then saying that doesn't support the 8th king. Based on everything I have said so far, and the Scriptures cited that is not something that was said. If a person is heeding the warning to fear God and give him glory because the hour of judgment by him has arrived and they know that supporting the 8th king will bring God's wrath upon them, so they choose to refuse to support the 8th king, then that person is not an apostate as you said. What a person believes now, has right or wrong, does not determine if when the time comes for the 8th king if they will refuse him for the sake of their choosing to worship God at that time. Undergoing that time of tribulation of 42 months by the 8th king upon all those refusing to support him, is a time those with insight will impart understanding to many. These are who make up the GC and it is said that during that time they wash their robes in the blood of the Lamb and these are the ones that God will spread his tent over. [9 After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. 10 And they keep shouting with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.”13 In response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one who knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 That is why they are before the throne of God, and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them. 16 They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down on them nor any scorching heat, 17 because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them and will guide them to springs of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.”]