I must have missed that.

Can I just ask on if you agree or not that taking the mark or not is a test from Jehovah on who will worship him or Satan by means of taking the mark/supporting the 8th king or not?

Do you agree that the GT is the rule of the 8th king?

Look in reverse order:

[4 And I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed for the witness they gave about Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had not worshipped the wild beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years.]

That shows that they were living during the time when faced to worship the beast and its image and to take the mark and they refused to do so.

[19 And I saw the wild beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the one seated on the horse and against his army. 20 And the wild beast was caught, and along with it the false prophet that performed in front of it the signs with which he misled those who received the mark of the wild beast and those who worship its image. While still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulfur. 21 But the rest were killed off with the long sword that proceeded out of the mouth of the one seated on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.]

That shows the beast who those that rule with Jesus that had not worshipped the wild beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand, that beast is now battling with Jesus at Armageddon and he and his false prophet and all those who received the mark of the beast and those who worship its image are all killed at that time.


1_______2________3 Armageddon

If all people having to do with taking the MOTB and the beast himself and his false prophet are killed off at that point then that means that between 2 & 3 has to be the time those are said to have the MOTB.

1___________2_____MOTB___3 Armageddon

In order for them to be there in 2 & 3 having taken the mark, they had to be misled prior to them taking the mark. So, anything that is associated with the lying signs used to mislead those to take the MOTB had to take place between 1 & 2.

1____misleading signs_____2_____MOTB___3 Armageddon

[13 And it performs great signs, even making fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the sight of mankind. 14 It misleads those who dwell on the earth, because of the signs that it was permitted to perform in the sight of the wild beast, while it tells those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the wild beast that had the sword-stroke and yet revived.15 And it was permitted to give breath to the image of the wild beast, so that the image of the wild beast should both speak and cause to be killed all those who refuse to worship the image of the wild beast. 16 It puts under compulsion all people—the small and the great, the rich and the poor, the free and the slaves—that these should be marked on their right hand or on their forehead, 17 and that nobody can buy or sell except a person having the mark, the name of the wild beast or the number of its name.]

There between 1 & 2 we see about the said misleading signs and note the threat to be killed if you don't worship the image that is made of the wild beast. Also, this is when the MOTB is given. So, all people who were misled and don't want to be killed and want to be able to buy/sell will take the MOTB and worship the image. Them doing that puts them on hand between 2 & 3 and then has them being killed at 3.

3 being Armageddon is God's wrath upon them in which it was warned beforehand that that would come upon those that take the MOTB and worship the image.

[9 Another angel, a third, followed them, saying in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the wild beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God that is poured out undiluted into the cup of His wrath,]

Now in contrast what about anyone that does not want to receive God's wrath at 3? Well, they would have to refuse to worship the image and the MOTB, being willing to not be able to buy/sell and to be killed. That is the circumstances for those between 2 & 3 that do not want God's wrath at 3.

We know that there will be those that take the MOTB/worship the image/beast because it is said that they are killed off when Jesus comes. (Rev 19:21) Will there be any that will refuse/do not take the MOTB/worship the image? The answer is yes there will be those that refuse/do not.

Here it says:

[2 And I saw something like a sea of glass mingled with fire, and those who are victorious over the wild beast and its image and the number of its name were standing by the sea of glass, holding harps of God.]

And as already shown:

[4 And I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed for the witness they gave about Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had not worshipped the wild beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years.]

But also, is the GC that did not take the mark as well. It does not say anything about the mark when speaking about the GC but it refers to the GT in which they come out of and the 42 months of the 8th king which is the hour of judgment/test from Jehovah is the only thing in Rev that the GC could come out of.

[5 It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months. 7 It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. 10 If anyone is meant for captivity, he will go into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. This is where it calls for endurance and faith on the part of the holy ones.]

6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, and he had everlasting good news to declare to those who dwell on the earth, to every nation and tribe and tongue and people. 7 He was saying in a loud voice: “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of judgment by him has arrived, so worship the One who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and the springs of water.”9 Another angel, a third, followed them, saying in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the wild beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God that is poured out undiluted into the cup of His wrath, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb. 12 Here is where it calls for endurance on the part of the holy ones, those who keep the commandments of God and hold fast to the faith of Jesus.”]

[9 After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. 10 And they keep shouting with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.”13 In response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one who knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.]

Do you really think 'there are 7 years from the mark of the beast to God's kingdom'?

 

I suppose one must define what a blessing is. To understand something, is that a blessing or a curse?

Daniel 11:33 says “And as regards those having insight among the people, they will impart understanding to the many. . . .”

Certainly those with insight during the last days will be the elect. As ambassadors substituting for Christ, why would you think they would NOT give blessings to anyone?

During the 1260 days of their witness, the holy ones will certainly perform powerful works. Do you really think these ambassadors will not have the ability to bring blessing to a world that will now be under the influence of the 8th king and his minions? No doubt, these holy ones will not take credit for the blessings they give, but those who receive the blessings from them, will no doubt give all praise to Jehovah through his son Jesus Christ, who these holy ones represent.

(2Co 5:20-21) “. . .We are therefore ambassadors substituting for Christ, as though God were making entreaty through us. As substitutes for Christ we beg: “Become reconciled to God.”


​

 

. . . hence the call to 'get out of her my people, if you do not want to share in her fate,' which has to happen before the start of the great tribulation on Christianity, would you agree?

Worshiping the beast and its image by accepting its mark is idolatry and false worship regardless of whether it is done by atheists or so-called Christians; the penalty is eternal destruction by God, which is why Satan is trying to force this upon the 8 billion people on this planet, not just God's nominal people, would you agree?

Since apostasy means recanting a previously held belief, even an atheist, to whom gods are nonexistent, would commit apostasy if he were to then worship the beast and its image; but that would be a secondary issue.

I see the wild beast of Re 13 as a totally unprecedented entity, not made up of any alliance of nations, but a personification of satanic authority and power over 'every nation,' which is about to burst on the scene.

This is the very beast that John sees - in Re 17:7,8 - in vision during the 'Lord's day,' at the point of receiving the sword stoke - when it 'is not' - which development we are about to experience.

At verse 9 the narrative snaps out of the 'Lord's day' back to 98 CE, when 'five kings' had already 'fallen,' 'one is,' and 'the other has not yet arrived.'

As to Mat 13:24 onward, it says: 'the field is the world;' but then also brings it up as the 'kingdom out of which all lawless ones will be removed' at Christ's return, clearly showing that the 'wheat' and 'weeds' are not growing side by side in the body of Christ, the Christian congregation, as distinct from God's nominal people, which are a part of the world wherein the body of Christ is merely residing without being a part thereof, would you agree?

That the 'kingdom' is the 'world' should not surprise us, because Jesus, in verses 31-33, likened it to leaven that would 'ferment the whole mass,' turning it into a mess, which is what the world has become by now.

If the kingdom were the body of Christ, as RK imagines, then the 'whole lump' - all of it - would be spoiled and lost, because those 'once for all enlightened' would have no chance of repenting again, and God's purpose would be thwarted.

Anyone truly 'once for all enlightened' would naturally not be, or stay, a member of a faith community that teaches lies, such as the trinity or Christ's invisible parousia since 1914, clearly showing that the WT anointed have not been enlightened with the Spirit of Truth, and are therefore not part of the Christian congregation, which is the body of Christ.


Harry

 

At verse 9 the narrative snaps out of the 'Lord's day' back to 98 CE, when 'five kings' had already 'fallen,' 'one is' [Rome], and 'the other [incipient globalist, sword stroke receiving beast] has not yet arrived.'

 

That is a good observation about the blessings through Abraham's seed already at work in this age for those to whom it has been granted. Mat 13:11

But besides, Gal 3:29 does indeed say that the elect will bring blessings to everyone in the age to come, because, being 'heirs of the promise' to 'bless all the nations of the earth,' the chosen ones will then 'shepherd all the nations with an iron rod' back to the perfection that Adam once had. Gal 3:8; Re 2:26,27

Even the 'ancient worthies,' like Abraham, will be shepherded back to perfection by the holy ones, such that his seed will become a blessing to him, and all faithful ones in the age to come. Heb 11:40

Those who are in Christ are Christ, because Christ means anointed One; they are one in Christ, who is heir of God's promise to Abraham, making them heirs of God by faith and joint heirs with Christ as composite seed of Abraham - which I assume you already know and believe, going by the comprehension you show in your replies. Ro 8:17


Harry

 

Agreed, I would just adjust the 8 billion to 6 billion. When the beast/8th king comes to power it will be after WW3 which according to Rev 6 and the horsemen, 1/4 people will die during that time.

Speaking of RK, I know there are some here that are on his site as well, so maybe you can ask him why he did what he did and to answer what I asked him.

He banned me recently which is no surprise to anyone because he does that often to those that question/challenge what he teaches. But in my case, he not only won't answer what I asked, but he banned me because he knows that what I asked will show that what he says is wrong. This is why he banned me minutes after I made a post and also, he then edited and deleted most of my post to hide what I said because he didn't want those there to see what I said on how he like the WTS, takes Scriptures out of context to use them to apply to their erroneous teachings.

This here is where he banned me, and you can see it says edited by moderator. The small part that he left there appears to readers as though that is all I said. Even if that is all I said, how does that equal being banned for that? But the truth is it's what he deleted out and is hiding from all there is why he banned me.

 

I don't see how you can even compare the two there. Sure, I want to buy from Jesus all I can but that has nothing to do with the buying/selling with the MOTB.

[16 It puts under compulsion all people—the small and the great, the rich and the poor, the free and the slaves—that these should be marked on their right hand or on their forehead, 17 and that nobody can buy or sell except a person having the mark, the name of the wild beast or the number of its name.]

There it says that people are put under compulsion/forced by 'it' ('it' meaning either the beast, false prophet or image) to be marked on their hand or forehead. The purpose of that mark is so that they can buy and sell under the new beast rule.

But then look here:

[9 Another angel, a third, followed them, saying in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the wild beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God that is poured out undiluted into the cup of His wrath, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb.]

Okay so with that being said I am going to refuse 'it' when it puts me under compulsion to be marked. I will say no thanks, I realize I will not be able to buy sell under this new beast rule but thats okay, I know if I take that mark then I will receive God's wrath later. I don't want that, I don't want to die at Armageddon, I want to live on in a post Armageddon world, so I refuse to take the mark now and will undergo whatever hardships that will cause for me during the beast rule.
_________

So, me having said/showed that, tell me how one taking the mark from the beast has anything to do or not with buying from Jesus?

 

I concede.

Thanks for the link; I missed that, but it just shows his intellectual and spiritual dishonesty; can you imagine someone with this attitude given power of judgment over people? Scary.

I would rather go to hell.


Harry

 

[11 Then I saw another wild beast ascending out of the earth, and it had two horns like a lamb, but it began speaking like a dragon. 12 It exercises all the authority of the first wild beast in its sight. And it makes the earth and its inhabitants worship the first wild beast, whose mortal wound was healed. 13 And it performs great signs, even making fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the sight of mankind.14 It misleads those who dwell on the earth, because of the signs that it was permitted to perform in the sight of the wild beast, while it tells those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the wild beast that had the sword-stroke and yet revived. 15 And it was permitted to give breath to the image of the wild beast, so that the image of the wild beast should both speak and cause to be killed all those who refuse to worship the image of the wild beast.16 It puts under compulsion all people—the small and the great, the rich and the poor, the free and the slaves—that these should be marked on their right hand or on their forehead, 17 and that nobody can buy or sell except a person having the mark, the name of the wild beast or the number of its name.]

[20 And the wild beast was caught, and along with it the false prophet that performed in front of it the signs with which he misled those who received the mark of the wild beast and those who worship its image. While still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulfur.]

Yes and no.

It comes from God in that the 8th king is Jehovah's means of judgment. All who make up the 8th king and all that support/go along with it are marked in Jehovah's view to receive his wrath. All that refuse to support/go along with the 8th king are marked by Jehovah to be part of his kingdom.

[16 It puts under compulsion all people—the small and the great, the rich and the poor, the free and the slaves—that these should be marked on their right hand or on their forehead, 17 and that nobody can buy or sell except a person having the mark, the name of the wild beast or the number of its name.]

[9 Another angel, a third, followed them, saying in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the wild beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God that is poured out undiluted into the cup of His wrath, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb.]

[4... those who had not worshipped the wild beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years.]

[2 And I saw something like a sea of glass mingled with fire, and those who are victorious over the wild beast and its image and the number of its name...]

[20 And the wild beast was caught, and along with it the false prophet that performed in front of it the signs with which he misled those who received the mark of the wild beast and those who worship its image. While still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulfur. 21 But the rest were killed off with the long sword that proceeded out of the mouth of the one seated on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.]

 

[9 Another angel, a third, followed them, saying in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the wild beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God that is poured out undiluted into the cup of His wrath]

There is a warning from God's angel about receiving the mark.

[16 It puts under compulsion all people—the small and the great, the rich and the poor, the free and the slaves—that these should be marked on their right hand or on their forehead, 17 and that nobody can buy or sell except a person having the mark, the name of the wild beast or the number of its name.]

There is what the angel is warning about, when people are forced to be marked. Forced how/why? It states that nobody can buy or sell unless you accept/have that mark.

Think back to the vax, if you were someone that didn't care if you took it and thought it was helpful, it was no big deal to take it. But if you did not want to take it and it was like no problem anyone that doesn't want to take it does not have to, that would be great. But what ended up being the case for many was they did not want to take it but were told there can't keep their job or travel if they don't take it. So now even though they did not want to take it they were forced to if they wanted to keep their job, etc. On the other hand, many were willing to lose their job because they did not want to take the vax, so they refused the vax and lost their job, etc.

That is what seems to be the case with the mark. You can't buy or sell without having it so in that way you are forced to take it. But in doing so it is going along with the 8th king which then marks you to get God's wrath after the 8th king rule.

I don't know what you are trying to get at with the mark? Yes, all people are marked by Jehovah if they go along with the 8th king. That is the case rather we use my view of the MOTB or your view. But your view does not deal with the not being able to buy/sell aspect.

In your view, if you refuse to worship the beast and its image, you will not be marked by Jehovah with his 666 mark. Okay great, you should not get his wrath later on, but now without that mark you are not able to buy or sell according to the Scripture. So, what does that mean for you at that point that you can't buy/sell?

 

There isn't one(or is there?). But where is the scripture that says the Jehovah gives the mark? There isn't one, therefore it comes to reasoning on other scriptures does it not?

So lets do some reasoning.

First, the name of the mark is called 'the mark OF the beast', which does lend to reason that the mark comes from the beast and not the other way around.

When we consider Satans agenda for mankind, we don't even have to reason, the bible makes it clear he wants to be like God.

(Isa 14:13-14) “. . .As for you, you have said in your heart, ‘To the heavens I shall go up. Above the stars of God I shall lift up my throne, and I shall sit down upon the mountain of meeting, in the remotest parts of the north. 14 I shall go up above the high places of the clouds; I shall make myself resemble the Most High.’”
​

There is only one way for Satan to resemble the Most High, is to do the things that the Most High does. Satan counterfeits Gods ways, and in doing so deceives the entire world. What does the most high do to his holy ones?

(Re 14:1) “. . .And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. . .”
​

Thus we can see that it is quite probable that Satan will do the same to those who follow him as their God.

When we actually look at the verses in Revelation that speak of the mark of the beast, we also find something that can be reasoned on.

(Re 13:16) “16 And it puts under compulsion all persons, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free and the slaves, that they should give these a mark in their right hand or upon their forehead,”​

Who is 'they' referring to in this scripture who give the mark? 'They' are the false prophet, and the image of the beast. These two symbolic descriptions in Revelation represent actual powers that exist in the world at that time, whether it be nations, or organizations, or conglomorations of powers, 'they' are the ones who 'give these a mark in their right hand or upon their forehead'(Rev 13:16).

There is zero mention of God or Jesus in those verses in chapter 13, so they cannot be 'they'.

When you consider these reasoning points, it's clear that the mark of the beast is entirely representative of the beast system that will be in power at that time, and those that run that system 'they' will be the ones who give the mark.

 

Can't really add anything to that!

There are no churches at that point. WW3 comes and is the pretext for empowering the 8th king. Everything collapses during WW3 by design. Then with an 8th king one world government there is a global power, new currency, no borders, and no freedom to practice your choice of religion. The 8th king is God now in his own eyes and will rule as such. Separate powers, money, borders, and religion is what is the cause of WW3. The 8th king seizes on that and says no more.

Now at this point if there really is no Jehovah and Jesus, no God whatsoever and we are all just fools for believing the Bible, then the way the 8th king will be ruling is what is really needed, so it will be very easy for many to get on board with that. But for those that believe in God and the Bible, they recognize the 8th king as the anti-Christ, Satan's false kingdom.

Hold that thought and listen to these few clips:

Brighteon

Bush Sr. New World Order Speech (rare) (youtube.com)

One World Religion - UN (youtube.com)

 

Be that as it may, 'it' is there, and 'it' is not Jehovah.

Revelation 13:16 Interlinear: And it maketh all, the small, and the great, and the rich, and the poor, and the freemen, and the servants, that it may give to them a mark upon their right hand or upon their foreheads, (biblehub.com)